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Germany in the Cross-hairs
Der Spiegel ^ | 21. August 2006 | Yassin Musharbash

Posted on 08/21/2006 6:30:52 AM PDT by Red6

(Machine Translated) *Critical excerpts of the text:

Till this day Islamic terrorists have not succeeded yet in striking in Germany. But mean the mess according to unanimous expert's opinion nothing. Above all not, because it already three attempts given hat:

In 2002 one wanted to commit an Abu Mussab al-Sarkawi attached terror cell posters against Jewish and putatively Jewish equipment in Berlin and in the Ruhr area.

In 2003 Tunisian Ihsan Garnaoui should have planned to explain a poster in the midst of a demonstration in Berlin.

In the end of 2004 lifted security services a group of Kurdish Iraqis become extinct, die to " Ansar of Al Islam " belonged and planned apparently to murder hobby room Iraqi interim premier Ijad Alawi at that time during a state visit in Berlin.

*But here is the Key argument of the article:

The war, hobby room bin Laden appealed, war the United states-controlled campaign against Afghanistan, after hobby room to terrorist attacks from the 11th September, 2001 been initiated to war. Differently than in the case of the invasion begun in 2003 in the hobby room war of Iraq the federal republic involved dies. Therefore, Germany and blow net are a citizen since that time already potential terror purposes.

In May, 2004 the document was delivered for the fact that still gilding also dies after the beginning of the Iraq war: the mitt in of the Saudi-Arabian capital Riad three terrorists shot hobby room Germans Hermann D. " the Mudschahidin in Riad have killed a western unbeliever

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Germany; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: afgahistan; europe; germany; gwot; iraq; islam; jihad; media; middleeast; reporting; terrorism
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Why German will fail-

It is this 'perception' which is now pushed by the new anti-war anti-US German. Full of half truths this article also neglects major aspects. For example, it is simply not true that Muslim terror is a result of German participation in Afghanistan. Only those over looking head scarves, the Olympics in Munich, plane hijackings....... can come to such a limited and untrue conclusion. However, those reading "Der Spiegel" are not worried about reality, and they comprise the majority in German society.

One has to put this into the context of the new German society. Ultra liberal, hyper sensetive of German sovereinty, a flavor of anti-Americanism, and huge Muslim populations all add up.

One only needs to look at the article and its author: Yassin Musharbash (German born I do believe)

For more on this author one just needs to google: http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=en&lr=&newwindow=1&safe=off&q=Yassin+Musharbash+&btnG=Search

There one can see articles about how Israel is at fault for the war, Israel is violating human rights, the London attackers were amatures and no AQ members......

They're done- As I said before, the Germans are a dying society, people, economy, and political system. It is their own ideology that will lead to their demise.

1 posted on 08/21/2006 6:30:53 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6
As I said before, the Germans are a dying society, people, economy, and political system. It is their own ideology that will lead to their demise.

But the German people will not die and a new society will be born from the ashes of the old one, IMHO. The Old Europe of the left is dying because it isn't vibrant and alive...it just doesn't work.

I don't think it will replaced with islam...at least without an earth shaking war to the death.

2 posted on 08/21/2006 6:37:38 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Red6
OBL said in his "Letter to America", 2003

"Why are we attacking you? What will it take for us to stop?" There are several things you must do but "The first thing we are calling you to is to Islam"

They have been told by their God to kill everybody who stands in their way of converting the world to Islam. There is no negotiating with them since they are on a mission from their God. They cannot be bought off, they can only be killed or permanently imprisoned.

Mohamed did precisely the same thing. Islam did not become a major religion until Mohamed conquered (with extreme brutality) most of Pan-Arabia.

Islam is not so much a religion but a cult of tyranny and oppression.

Islam is spread through conquest, not conviction.

3 posted on 08/21/2006 6:37:59 AM PDT by Mark Felton ("Your faith should not be in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.")
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To: Red6

"They're done- As I said before, the Germans are a dying society, people, economy, and political system. It is their own ideology that will lead to their demise."

Are you talking about the Weimar republic?
Do not confuse the people with the leadership. The political and cultural elite in europe has been very good at shutting down any real debate. Things are not what they may seem.


4 posted on 08/21/2006 6:38:35 AM PDT by cicero106
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To: Red6

Or this could be the perspective of one writer, and "a flavor of anti-Americanism" you propose is really "a flavor of xenophobia" - which anyone can point to on Free Republic.

For all we know, publication of this article could be offered as an example of how free speech does fine in Germany. It's no worse than the Slimes, or any other US media conglomerate, in my opinion.


5 posted on 08/21/2006 6:40:10 AM PDT by LurkedLongEnough
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To: Red6

Uh... seems an interesting topic; after all, we haven't heard much about terrorism inside Germany - either potential terrorism or actual. Possibly the machine translation might... um... be improved?


6 posted on 08/21/2006 6:40:44 AM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: Red6; Admin Moderator

Activism/Chapters not


7 posted on 08/21/2006 6:40:58 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Only stupid people would vote for McCain, Warner, Hagle, Snowe, Graham, or any RINO)
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To: Dark Skies
The Old Europe of the left is dying because it isn't vibrant and alive...it just doesn't work.

While that may be very true, it took the Soviets over 60 plus years to die. So, it could be a very long, painful, death. Years yet. If liberalism and socialism are dying, I sure am seeing a lot of it around. So, something or somebody is doing a fairly good job of keeping it alive and convincing others to adopt it, as stupid as they may be.

8 posted on 08/21/2006 6:41:32 AM PDT by RetiredArmy (Back home in Alabama after 14 years in hell of WA state.)
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To: cicero106
Lets talk:

Birth rate - Aging population with a negative growth
Economic growth - practically NONE to show for and this trend has been going on for over a DECADE.
Military - shrinking in capabilities
Political influence - Shrinking within the EU (Over shadowed by even France), NATO, Middle East.
Crime rate- on the rise
Muslim population - on the rise
Investment in R&D - declining
Real net disposable incomes - declining
Infrastructure - aging and falling behind; look at the once great Autbahn today, the Germans as a whole are slipping evben in education, look at their hospitals and the older MRI systems they use....
A government that is near broke and can't pay for existing programs and systems.

The trend is not new nor is it short term. The decay of this "nation" has been going on for some time. People who are part of this trend usually do not see the decay themselves. A Roman living in the days of a declining empire would not have thought his empire is declining. The German today does not see his nation fading away.

Again, I said this before as well. Within 20 years Germany will not even be number 3 on the world stage in GDP. Within 20 years Germany will be passed by China and India (Place 3 today after the US and Japan). Within 30 years Germany will most likely be place 6.
9 posted on 08/21/2006 6:53:36 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6

Yooo, Bin Laden is in the hobby room, go getim!!!


10 posted on 08/21/2006 6:58:10 AM PDT by Leo Carpathian (ffffFReeeePeee!)
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To: Dark Skies

"I don't think it will replaced with islam...at least without an earth shaking war to the death."

Wishful thinking. islamists are irrationally motivated, and very dynamic. The left in Europe is like the left in America, complacent, indifferent, and self loathing. Throw into the mix that modern democratic style governments are ripe for being overrun from within and I would say islam can take over without firing a shot. That's not to say a shot won't be fired... the muslims will fire, and explode things simply to enhance the terror factor, and because they love death.


11 posted on 08/21/2006 7:04:04 AM PDT by brownsfan (It's not a war on terror... it's a war with islam.)
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To: Jack Hammer
Germany Warns Of Terrorism Threat (One Arrested)

The bombs didn't explode.

12 posted on 08/21/2006 7:08:33 AM PDT by blam
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To: Red6

but they gave us Marx


13 posted on 08/21/2006 7:08:38 AM PDT by wildcatf4f3 (level headed analyst here...armed to the teeth)
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To: Red6

well, of course that is correct. further information can be found here:
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html


14 posted on 08/21/2006 7:13:29 AM PDT by viko
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To: Red6

I won't go into detail refuting all of your inaccuracies (for example with regard to the Autobahns, most of which are now in pristine condition due to the pre-world cup building frenzy), just one remark:

Your whole theory (well not so much a theory as a collection of ramblings, as a theory would require you to look at the whole picture) is based on one assumption: That there will be no war against Iran, that the Saudis will give up their terrorist ways, that we will all live happily ever after because there will be no disruptions in the world's oil supplies.

Because frankly: While the German economy can survive on $250 a barrel, the US will have huge problems and China with its horrendously inefficient production methods will probably have to go to war to secure their share of supplies.

That's not saying that Germany doesn't have a sh*tload of problems: Immigration, an aging society etc., these are all valid points. But as a whole your view on the situation is myopic at best. And you drastically overestimate the Islamic Republic of France. *LOL


15 posted on 08/21/2006 7:36:21 AM PDT by wolf78
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To: Red6

If all of these things are true (I am not disputing that they are), then what will inevitably happen?

The answer is that there will be a mass exodus from Europe at some point in the future. Where will they then all go?

Many are so filled with anti-Americanism that they will probably not come here, so that narrows their options to only a couple of other countries where western civilization is predominant: Canada and Australia/New Zealand.

These people fleeing Europe will take their nasty ideas with them and they will impact the politics of whatever nation that they settle in. Now, New Zealand is already fairly anti-American and probably can't go much farther down that road, besides which most of the immigrants will not go there, so that leaves Canada and Australia.

While there are large numbers of anti-Americans already in Canada, large parts of the country-especially the west-are not yet completely afflicted by that malady. Large scale immigration from Europe will probably push Canada farther down that path.

Australia is perhaps the most pro-American nation on earth (with the possible exception of Israel), but it is very welcoming to immigrants. Large numbers of Europeans migrating there may gradually turn them away from us.

I suppose that the point I am trying to make is that the decline of Europe (which I think is real) will have consequences for us beyond Europe itself, it's extremely depressing to contemplate.


16 posted on 08/21/2006 7:37:12 AM PDT by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal)
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To: Jack Hammer
The core of article basically stated that if Germany were not in Afghanistan they would not have any terrorist threats.

The core argument denies other attacks even pre 9-11 even on Germans, the article conveniently over looks Islamic based terror in the Philippines (Abu Sayyaf) and many many many other places........ The author is named - Yassin Musharbash. Need one say more?
17 posted on 08/21/2006 7:38:02 AM PDT by Red6
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To: wolf78
Actually it is Europe that IMPORTS the predominant part of it's oil from the Middle East, not the US. It is Germany that IMPORTS over 2/3rds of their consumption, while the US covers near 2/3rds of their own demand through domestic production.

Paints, certain materials, lubricants, even some medication and of course fuel are all products of oil. Germany today is more dependent on foreign oil than in the oil crunch under Helmut Schmidt which near broke the German economy. Live on in your world of "Windraeder" that today deliver a whopping 3% of your electrical power.
18 posted on 08/21/2006 7:48:15 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6
The core of article basically stated that if Germany were not in Afghanistan they would not have any terrorist threats.

Hey, man, I really value your criticism, and as a libertarian share a lot of your concerns, but: That is bullcr*p, the article says the exact opposite.

Quote: Deutschland war also zu keinem Zeitpunkt vor Anschlägen gefeit, nur weil keine deutschen Panzer in Bagdad stehen. Radikale Islamisten finden, dass die Bundesrepublik sehr wohl verstrickt ist, unter anderem, weil Berlin diplomatische Beziehungen zur neuen irakischen Regierung unterhält und ihr bei der Ausbildung von Sicherheitskräften hilft. Al-Qaida & Co. setzen das mit einer direkten Unterstützung der USA gleich.

Translation: At no point time Germany was immune to attacks, just because there are no German tanks in Baghdad. Radical islamists consider the German republic very much involved [in Iraq], among other things because Germany has diplomatic ties with the new Iraqi government and assists in training security forces. Al-Qaida & Co. equate this with direct support for the US.

Quote: Außerdem wird Deutschland wegen seiner besonderen Beziehung zu Israel häufig als einseitig israelfreundlich wahrgenommen.

Translation: Additionally Germany, due to its special relationship with Israel, is perceived as being one-sidedly pro-Israel.
19 posted on 08/21/2006 7:49:43 AM PDT by wolf78
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To: Red6

Sure Germany has it problems, but it isn't in any worse shape than other european nations. Those problems will in the end lead to political change. The left has been very good to use postwar guilt to promote socialist ideas all over europe. This will not last forever. Sure there will be bumpy days ahead, but germany nor europe isn't dead yet.

China and India has their own problems. Their export driven growth will not last forever, and a large diverse population may be more of a liability than an asset.

Even the US faces it's own problems ahead. If you cannot protect you own border, how can you exist as a country anymore.


20 posted on 08/21/2006 7:51:44 AM PDT by cicero106
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To: Red6

Yes, I see. Thank you.


21 posted on 08/21/2006 7:56:05 AM PDT by Jack Hammer
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To: Red6
Actually it is Europe that IMPORTS the predominant part of it's oil from the Middle East, not the US. It is Germany that IMPORTS over 2/3rds of their consumption, while the US covers near 2/3rds of their own demand through domestic production.



...a whopping 3%...

As so often your facts are outdated. It's 4.5%.
22 posted on 08/21/2006 7:57:12 AM PDT by wolf78
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To: wolf78
Your so full of shit.

Drive down the A5 once! Look at the ruts in the Autobahn. The German road infrastructure is incapable of meeting demands. For years there has been reluctance to expand roads, widen Autobahns and Bundesstrassen etc. Today you have a situation where people sit 40 minutes in a Stau to get into Frankfurt. The stretch between Frankfurt and Heidelberg is over loaded as are many many other stretches. Go drive down your roads in downtown Frankfurt. The infrastructure has neither kept up with demands and has fallen behind in it's quality. The once world known Autobahn which was smooth, flat, and pothole free in the 80s in not there anymore.

I suggest you go into a German hospital and look at your MRI machines. We export the ones you use to Russia! Obsolete by todays standards. But what can you expect from a "state managed" health care system. You guys use glass IV bottles for crying out loud! Some of the hardware you have in a hospital belongs in a museum.
23 posted on 08/21/2006 8:01:52 AM PDT by Red6
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To: wolf78

:) Ok- you do have a sense of humor!


24 posted on 08/21/2006 8:02:32 AM PDT by Red6
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To: wolf78
As to post #19-

Realize that your making my case with the examples your trying to give. What is he really saying? Disengage!

The writer of this article more or less reinforces the concept of appeasement and disengagement. If only Germany stuck its head in the sand, then the Islamists would leave us alone. This thread of thought runs deep in German society. Look at self censorship reference the Mohamed cartoons or during Fasching. The Germans are appeasers. They will only tear their mouth open with the US because they know we won't bomb them. Reference Libya even a few years ago they again were cowering in the corner hoping that if they say nothing and do nothing maybe they will be spared if the situation ignites again as it did in the 80's. But were they in range of those TBM's? Yep
25 posted on 08/21/2006 8:27:47 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6

The joys of anecdotal evidence... ;-).

I bet somewhere in an Islamist forum someone is quoting Henryk M. Broder's "Wir kapitulieren" (Hoorray, we surrender!) from a few days earlier (also Spiegel Online) as proof that Germany is indeed part of the jewish world conspiracy and much worse than even the great Satan US *LOL.

And I'm not saying you're completely wrong. I just want to point out that your line of argument is sometimes sloppy and some of your conclusions premature.

I indeed value your criticism, but I'd much rather have the whole breadth of the problem than just the talking points.


26 posted on 08/21/2006 8:56:13 AM PDT by wolf78
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To: wolf78
"anecdotal evidence?" What that means is that you have no arguments and have to discount what I'm saying with a hand wave. But I understand, the Germans are good at "Axelzucken"

Libya
Iraq
Downplaying of the terror threats
Iran
Cartoons
Today with Israel

Look at how the German brushed aside the Muslim riots in France. They 'pretended' as if this is an issue about disenfranchised youth, who just happen to be near all Muslim.

Think about this - An actual initiative to strike certain words that are deemed inflamitory and these efforts are all aimed at appeasing the Islamist. "Kein Blut fuer Oel" or "Heuschreken Kapitalistinen" that's OK, but don't say anything that may make an Islamist angry.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/980 (Sad isn't it?) The same Germans that like to run around and call American's names are those who are muzzling themselves in respect to Islamists.

Their media is littered with arguments and reasoning that is defeatist, appeasement, and disengagement focused. Even their political leaders echo words that are weak, feeble, and subordinating to any threat. They're just waiting to die.
27 posted on 08/21/2006 10:27:42 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Dark Skies

I agree. There are a bunch of lefties and tree-huggers running Europe at this time and probably only about 35% of the people are smelling the coffee. However, as the Muslims demand more and more and are emboldened to committ acts of violence, that percentage will grow. Europeans have been ruthless with these people before, and I doubt if 60 yrs of Euro-weenerism has bred that out of them. There will be a crossroads some time in the near future, and I think the the Europeans are not going to want to see their societies taken over by a bunch of goat-boinking sand-nazis.


28 posted on 08/21/2006 10:31:47 AM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: wolf78

More anecdotal evidence: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1289545,00.html

You know the sad part? While the Germans don't advertize it, everyone already knows it. Deutschland ist erpressbar.


29 posted on 08/21/2006 10:49:24 AM PDT by Red6
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To: attiladhun2; Dark Skies; Red6

Red6:
''As I said before, the Germans are a dying society, people, economy, and political system. It is their own ideology that will lead to their demise.''
As a German with a libertarian point of view - yes, that is a minority in Germany - I have to concede, that you make same valid points. Your analysis is - as always - brilliant, but your conclusions miss the point again. As German people we have survived plenty of horrible disasters in the last 2000 years( self inflicted and inflicted by others).We won't be run over by some Dark Ages ideologists either(no matter what you try to conclude from this leftist MSM cr*p). And I believe that is valid for other European countries as well. Maybe you should do, what Chancellor Kohl did : he disregarded SPIEGEL during his government completely (and refused to give them an interview at all - I believe, he called them ''Dreckschleuder '')
I'm not asking for it , BUT , if some major incidents are going to happen on German soil you will finally have to understand that you have confused(misread) the substance by looking only onto the surface.

Dark Skies:
''But the German people will not die and a new society will be born from the ashes of the old one, IMHO. The Old Europe of the left is dying because it isn't vibrant and alive...it just doesn't work.
I don't think it will replaced with Islam...at least without an earth shaking war to the death.''
Good points!!.
atitiladhun2:
''However, as the Muslims demand more and more and are emboldened to commit acts of violence, that percentage will grow. Europeans have been ruthless with these people before, and I doubt if 60 yrs of Euro-weenerism has bred that out of them. There will be a crossroads some time in the near future ..''
They might just be dump enough to proceed with more violence. It's not difficult to predict a more serious backlash.


30 posted on 08/21/2006 3:33:53 PM PDT by skraut (Sauerkraut forever)
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To: skraut
Reality hurts sometimes.

I love the US Army. I was an Airborne Ranger and served in Iraq. I think the mission in Iraq is both necessary and legitimate. HOWEVER, I would be in denial if I stated that the war in Iraq is not slowly depleting and draining the US Army and Marines. The USAF and USN are unscathed, but the Army in order to meet recruiting goals has dropped some of their educational, age, and background check requirements. A 42 year old enlisting 7 years ago would have been unheard of. Both personnel and equipment is under stress and being burned up. Billions are spent and much of that is not completely covered by defense authorizations for Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers are dying and many are getting crippled. You are seeing many jump off the boat as they saw hard times ahead and to meet the required rank structure they are promoting officers and enlisted men extremely quickly. Today you see captains with 3.0 years in service. Something you would not have seen in 2002. Helicopters are aging through excessive use, tanks are getting shot up, new equipment that should have come is not because funds were diverted to other causes which legitimately are now more important that we are in war.

No matter how much I agree with the war, the way we are executing it (Even that is being done right) and how much I loved to soldier and respect our armed forces, the reality is that our military is getting depleted. It is not as dramatic nor as extreme as the NYT's would like one to believe, but nonetheless true. It's not happening over night, but it is happening slowly, one little piece at a time. It is a war of attrition, and ultimately we can win, if the public does not loose its nerve. In the process however, we will get hurt.

The patient Germany is no different. All indicators point down. Good news for the Germans is stagnation. If they manage to get their unemployment down to 10% and 2% growth that would be the best one can hope for and frankly that's bad. Even German as a language is on the decline. That's a fact, and it says something about a cultures world wide influence and significance. Germany is not only economically sick, they are also culturally, militarily, and politically declining. The core, the root of Germany's demise is based on an ideology of socialism. This way of thought spans beyond some social programs, it's a dogma. It even becomes a "Religions Ersatz". How much sense does it make to raise the VAT to 19%? What economist will tell you that's a good idea? Germany is driven by an ideology, an ideology that is even influencing the transatlantic relations, Germany's views on economics............ Germany today is a confused nation. They don't even know who their friends are!

If the 'trend' does not change, and it has not for over TEN YEARS (Double digit unemployment is nothing new to Germany), Germany will just fade away on the world stage as a player. If the 'trend' does not get turned around, Germany in 20 years will be worse off than today. Germany is today a near basket case. The fact that the Germans throw their hands up in the air, point their finger at other, but make no changes themselves is an indicator of where this 'trend' will continue to go along. Please tell, what profound 'systemic' changes are happening? Besides making the Americans their new Jew and calling them locust capitalists, what are they doing different?

If Germany were attacked tomorrow successfully and hundreds died, the Germans would see this as validation to give up and abandon Afghanistan or even take a lighter position on Iran. People like Atlantic Bridge, a self proclaimed German conservative would see this as validation to disengage with the problem Islamic terror. Do you think this is a healthy perception that will lead to any solution?
31 posted on 08/21/2006 4:40:00 PM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6
The 'locust capitalist' debate had nothing to do with America, as you are of course eager to be insulted of. It was rather a helpless response of the government to the fact that globalisation is the lever needed to seperate social democracy and working economics.

The main point behind your pathos is of course valid:

"Please tell, what profound 'systemic' changes are happening?"

There are changes on many levels (most surprising to me is that even parts of the German union system are trying to adapt in a sensible way) but our government sucks ass. Besides, it's only 17% VAT. I had my hopes up that a big coalition would be able to force through significant change but up to now nothing has happened.

Besides, you might find this link interesting. And if you choose to read the full thing, I would like to hear your opinion on it, as I am not an expert in these matters.

http://inef.uni-due.de/page/documents/Report81.pdf

32 posted on 08/22/2006 4:41:33 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: Schweinhund
The 'locust capitalist' debate had nothing to do with America, ...

Um, then how do you explain this: Kapitalisten, aufgepasst!

or this

33 posted on 08/22/2006 5:21:15 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: Schweinhund
Besides, it's only 17% VAT.

Um, what is this then?? Erhöhung des Umsatzsteuersatzes von 16 Prozent auf 19 Prozent zum 1.1.2007

34 posted on 08/22/2006 5:24:12 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

Well, that's an union magazine. The article you quote puts quite clearly that the biggest link of the list to the USA was that the Carlyle Group was in it.


35 posted on 08/22/2006 5:27:07 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: An.American.Expatriate

Oh...my bad.


36 posted on 08/22/2006 5:27:53 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: Schweinhund
Well, that's an union magazine.

Oh, how silly of me to equate IG Metall and the SPD / Münterfering - obviously, they are totally at odds.

I guess that even your own media made the incorrect assuptions at the time - even they "knew" immediately to whom he was refering.

37 posted on 08/22/2006 5:44:09 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

But the article you quoted says nothing of that. The arguments in the German media revolved more around the German corporations attacking Müntefering and the Left Wing happily adopting it and blowing it up, like this IG Metall magazine. And of course the unions and the SPD have a history of cooperation on each other, but you assume wrong if you link them like you do. It's about as wrong as assuming the Arbeitgeberverband is a subdivision of the CDU. They have common interests, but naturally the IG Metall is much more socialist than the SPD, and since the party tries to adopt this New Left image it's a growing pain in the ass for them.


38 posted on 08/22/2006 6:12:15 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: Schweinhund
Pardon my being blunt - but Münterfering is a member of IG Metall Jeder Dritte ist DGB-Mitglied

Page down to near the bottom of the list of "DGB-Mitglieder unter den Abgeordneten der SPD-Fraktion" and you will find: "Müntefering, Franz IG Metall"

39 posted on 08/22/2006 6:24:52 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate
That's not blunt at all. Rather interesting because I didn't know about the scale up to now. Thank you for the information.

But him being a member doesn't really make him or the SPD a puppet of union interests, or shows that the IGM and the SPD are closely coordinating their politics.

Examples:

http://www.friedenskooperative.de/themen/deeska59.htm

Search for Müntefering or Schroeder.

There are close relations to the SPD and as your link showed me, the majority of the SPD are members of Unions (though not necessarily of the IGM). But the German Unions are still strong enough to have an agenda of their own, which is generally far left of the SPD's agenda. And as I also pointed out in the post before, the Unions and the SPD had several arguments during the Schroeder period, mostly because the SPD is trying to evolve into a 'New Left' party to draw more support from other groups in the german society.

And the list in itself only critizized investment groups. It was the IGM cover that helped delegitimate the critizizm as antiamerican and antisemitic (because many of the listed big investment groups are owned by Jews, it seems). I just read that on wikipedia [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuschrecken_(Politik)]. I have to admit that I didn't follow the debate too closely at that time because I felt that it was just another case of politicians blaming their inability to adapt to a changing market on economic evolution itself.

40 posted on 08/22/2006 7:34:46 AM PDT by Schweinhund
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To: Schweinhund
I have to admit that I didn't follow the debate too closely at that time because I felt that it was just another case of politicians blaming their inability to adapt to a changing market on economic evolution itself.

Here we at least agree!!!!!

41 posted on 08/22/2006 8:01:12 AM PDT by An.American.Expatriate (Here's my strategy on the War against Terrorism: We win, they lose. - with apologies to R.R.)
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To: Red6

''Reality hurts sometimes''
Well, yes. But I do think your viewpoint is just more of an ''the glass of water is half empty'' approach than justified. We Germans are usually blamed to criticize in this manner. Kohl called it '' complaining on a high
level''.
Now let`s look at it from the ''glass is half full'' viewpoint:
Unemployment/growth rate :
Latest below 10%/2% , nothing to brag about, but still better than 11.5%/1.5%. Improving, despite real reforms have not taken place. Yesterday Merkel had to give credit to the ''Harz 4'' reform( initiated by Schröder!! Good fun!). Imagine the scope of improvements, once Merkel would/could preside a CDU/FDP government!
''Even German as a language is on the decline''
It is obvious that the USA as remaining superpower No 1 have a cultural influence worldwide. The language (well, some sort of English, as it's said /chuckle) transports this. In Germany there are plenty examples of Anglicism. Most Germans couldn't be bothered about this . Why should they, it's cool, man.. Unlike other countries in Europa who fear - somehow understandable -a cultural loss.
I believe this is also somewhat a grass root proof, that Germans don't dislike Americans as it is often claimed. It's just politics, stupid (no pun intended).
Decline economic importance:
China or even India suppose to come out in front of Germany on economic rankings. So what? Why should there be a problem, that their rankings in the future are going to reflect the position of their economy and the number of their people?
Military second rated:
In the light of the 20. century history some countries in Europe might just find this positive that Germany is downsizing it's army! Apart from this, it is in the middle of a process of transforming a land-based army, set up to fight the then SowjetUnion in Europe, to a modern response force, capable of acting worldwide. Given our history, this is politically not easy and it costs time and money. I have not the slightest doubts, this will be archived in the longer run.
Social programs:
''DDR light'', I believe you called it in another thread. I loved it!. Yes, this together with the red tape will be the hardest to change. Germany is still a wealthy country and people just don`t see the point, that things should change a lot. Especially the ones, who can take advantage of the system. Look what happened, when Merkel honestly announced changes towards a flat tax. She nearly lost the election. Obviously, we are not yet in dire streets, so it's business as usual/ sarc.
''Please tell, what profound 'systemic' changes are happening?''

IMHO the only chance of profound changes are possible with a CDU/FDP government.
''Besides making the Americans their new Jew and calling them locust capitalists, what are they doing different?''

This is stupid left wing election rhetoric. Especially when later came out, some government bodies sold out their real estate to these ''locust capitalists''.

''If Germany were attacked tomorrow successfully and hundreds died, the Germans would see this as validation to give up and abandon Afghanistan or even take a lighter position on Iran.''
I predict, the contrary will happen, Muslims here are already complaining about being hassled.

''People like Atlantic Bridge, a self proclaimed German conservative would see this as validation to disengage with the problem Islamic terror. Do you think this is a healthy perception that will lead to any solution?''

I have not read all of his or - for that matter - your postings. Also, its none of my business to judge other people here. But I can give you my opinion:
As a German, who has been living abroad many years of my professional life, my impression is, we have to engage us outside Europe too - if necessary militarily. In the long run, there is not much point in neck in the woods navel gazing. We should have a clear stand to our allies and interest to defend our similar/same values based on a Jewish/Christian cultural background. And yes, I would supported Merkel, if she were going to sent troops to Lebanon. Additionally, I had no problem either, if the mission would include, to take out this Hezbollah cr*p


42 posted on 08/22/2006 10:06:02 AM PDT by skraut
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To: skraut
The problems I mentioned are systemic and established as a trend. They are no cyclical temporary issues Germany faces, rather long term and continuing.

I am not viewing the glass half full. If I wanted to be factual and negative I would have to state that by definition Germany's economy is in a 'depression' and no credible long term projection puts Germany at more that 2% growth for the foreseeable future.

Again, look at the German birth rate. Is this changing? Is it getting better? Is it only a temporary anomaly that will pass shortly? No. It's a problem that has been brewing for years even over a decade now. Do you really think the Germans are going to have some epiphany and completely remodel their economic system? No. Truth is the Germans are going FURTHER into their hole and are now taxing road usage, phasing in a new tax for the wealthy and increasing their VAT. The only thing they can think of as an answer to their problem is to go further down this road. Why? Because the Germans embrace socialism. They believe in an 'ordentliche sozialpolitik', even though all historical examples, modern economic theory, and even common sense say it's a bad idea. When people hold on to an idea like this despite all evidence running contrary they are no longer acting pragmatic or rational. They are consumed by an ideology.

Yet more evidence-

It is no coincidence that Germany has adopted an extreme liberal position on abortion (Paragraph 218) shortly after the wall fell. The Germans who already were very liberal moved even further to the left politically after the unification. Arbeitsbeschaffungsmassnahmen or 1 Euro jobs are not to far off from what you had in the former DDR where everyone was guaranteed a job, even if it was made up and had no economic viability.

Today, Germany under Merkel will take a more sound and realistic approach to security matters. Unlike Schroeder, she will not play games to score cheap political capital at an allies expense. Iraq is not the only example of where Schroeder did this. Missile defense was another example where the Schroeder administration more or less took a position that ran contrary even to Germany's OWN security interests and they knew the US would follow through with it, yet they bad mouthed it and pandered to the political left within Germany. As the elections were nearing Schroeder even tried to play games with the Iran crisis! This man did not even serve Germany's OWN interests. He served himself, and should be happy with his job at Gazprom today.

Germany will not play a vital role in security, BUT they will no longer play games with Western collective security interests and sabotaging it as Schroeder was. On the other hand, Germany will not change in it's paradigm reference socialism; their economic, and social policy. Germany with continue to implode internally but at least externally they will not pull others down with them.
43 posted on 08/23/2006 7:06:29 AM PDT by Red6
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To: cicero106
I agree, most Germans I know are very similar to conservative Americans in their view of the world. They have their own MSM problems and political left wing agenda just like we have here in the States.

If Germany were split in to red and blue you would see more red than in the USA, IMHO. They changed challencelors in the last election and if Islam strikes I think the Islamic fanatics will be the ones on the receiving end of the cross-hairs. Just MHO.
44 posted on 08/23/2006 7:13:23 AM PDT by not2worry (What goes around comes around.)
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To: skraut
"As a German, who has been living abroad many years of my professional life, my impression is, we have to engage us outside Europe too - if necessary militarily. In the long run, there is not much point in neck in the woods navel gazing. We should have a clear stand to our allies and interest to defend our similar/same values based on a Jewish/Christian cultural background. And yes, I would supported Merkel, if she were going to sent troops to Lebanon. Additionally, I had no problem either, if the mission would include, to take out this Hezbollah cr*p"

What percent of Germans think this way? You can count them on one hand. There are also Germans who think that the current economic and social policy is a failure and that the government should back off. Most Germans will agree that there are problems, but what percent would say "yes" to cuts in the Rente, Arbeitslosenversicherung, and agree with paying for their own college or trade school and health care? Again, you can count them on one hand. The German believes in socialism, and you CAN make a 'pauschal' statement like that. There can be no change until the people begin to think differently.
45 posted on 08/23/2006 7:17:23 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6

''Why? Because the Germans embrace socialism. They believe in an 'ordentliche sozialpolitik', even though all historical examples, modern economic theory, and even common sense say it's a bad idea. When people hold on to an idea like this despite all evidence running contrary they are no longer acting pragmatic or rational. They are consumed by an ideology''.
As already discussed, I am aware this point is difficult to tackle with. I believe, it is not a coincidence, that
Bismarck IIRC introduced the first social insurance worldwide in Germany. IMHO the idea of solidarity is deeply embedded in German culture. Socialism and fascism just took advantage of it. And while a 'modern welfare state' claims to benefit single members and in the end the whole society, it has run now out of control. Not only in Germany BTW., France needs some readjustments as well.
In Germany it started in 70/80 with Willy Brands champagne 'mehr Demokratie wagen', when Germany still was in a pretty healthy, financial shape. So they started pouring money into the social systems. An 'Erwartungshaltung' was building up, the state had to provide everything etc. Chancellor Schmidt already tried to steer against it. So did Kohl. It's true the unification with the socialistic eastern part did not improve things, quite to the contrary.
Imagine for a sec. the USA had to takeover a bankrupt country with about 25% of its own population and feed it through( well, more or less) built up its infrastructure,
integrate its social security system ( which basically meant, credit them their worthless 'Rentenansprüche' to the full,) and pay this all out of the pocket of the rest population. Of course the 'Erwartungshaltung' in East
Germany expected this and more. Would you like to work with Eastern European wages in Germany and have to pay the high cost of living over here. No, you wouldn't. So their wages had to go up. Which in turn did`t encourage big scale industry. They rather went to Eastern European states with cheap wages( German companies included).
The local unemployment rates are still over 20% in some areas.
IMHO you have to be careful, when you cite 10% or 11% general unemployment rate in Germany. The area in the former BRD, I'm currently living in, has about 6.7%. Now for argument sake : still pretty good ,despite all the socialistic burdens, isn't ? And when you believe the theory that, the higher the tax rate the bigger the numbers of tax avoidance cases it is still much better. Have you ever tried to get a 'handwerker' in some areas in German ? If they turn up at all - with a high probability - they will ask you for a 'non bill' job(IE.. no bill - no tax). There is plenty of 'Schwarzgeld' around. This, of course, doesn't appear in official statistics.
It comes still better: After the opening up of East Europe ( well, partly at least) there are plenty people around here , who you can hire. For them it is attractive, because they can make more money in 3 months than in the whole year in their home country. So you would have to reduce the unemployment rate again.
In short: the economy is in better shape as some official statistics might reflect. I'm living here now, so I get a reality check every day.
Hence my conclusion : The main economic problems we are currently facing in Germany are caused by unification and
a social system, that has been blown out of proportion. WE need to cut it back to the size it was during the times of 'Wirtschaftminister Ehrhard'. BTW our bureaucracy needs the same treatment. I hate to admit it, but Germany is the most over-regulated country, I have ever been working in. Luckily/unfortunately the country is not in sorry state as Britain was, when Thatcher came to power. Hence it is unrealistic to expect big changes. As already stated, the best chance is still, the CDU/ FDP gets a majority in the next election and then, I predict, you will be in for a surprise!


46 posted on 08/23/2006 4:53:24 PM PDT by skraut
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To: Red6

''Today, Germany under Merkel will take a more sound and realistic approach to security matters. Unlike Schroeder, she will not play games to score cheap political capital at an allies expense. Iraq is not the only example of where Schroeder did this. Missile defense was another example where the Schroeder administration more or less took a position that ran contrary even to Germany's OWN security interests and they knew the US would follow through with it, yet they bad mouthed it and pandered to the political left within Germany. As the elections were nearing Schroeder even tried to play games with the Iran crisis! This man did not even serve Germany's OWN interests. He served himself, and should be happy with his job at Gazprom today''
Well, I did neither vote for entertainer Schroeder nor for diva Fisher. I agree that their government has done a lot of damage to the Atlantic relations together with Chirac. Thankfully, both are gone now and the acceptance rates of Schroeder plummeted after this Gazprom deal, so I guess he is politically dead by now. Merkel has more room to manoeuvre in foreign affairs than in domestics. She is
definitely USA friendly and I think she has already proven this and will do it further. She has obviously managed to establish a good working relationship with your president, so sunnier relationship times seem to lay ahead!.


47 posted on 08/23/2006 5:41:54 PM PDT by skraut
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To: skraut

Ouch.
champagne = campaign


48 posted on 08/23/2006 5:47:25 PM PDT by skraut
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To: skraut

Reference the economy in Germany-

Germany is in serious trouble. It has been for years, now the reality is beginning to soak into the public’s consciousness and the denial that was practiced for years (As today they still are in light of the Islamic threat) is fading away to a reality that is becoming undeniable.

Things will get worse before they get better. Nothing will get ‘substantially’ better until the Germans change their mode of operation. High taxes, massive bureaucracy, large subsidies, high degree of state participation in the economy, large elaborate inefficient and abused governmental services have created the mess there is today. Basically, Germany NEEDS a Ronald Reagan or Thatcher, but unlike the UK and US which wanted reform Germany does not. Most Germans would agree there are problems but few would draw the conclusions that supply side economics and a minimalist government are the answer. In fact so far the public has supported ‘more’ government and ‘more’ taxes as a way to patch up all the wholes in this sieve called an ‘ordentliche sozialpolitik’. NOTHING that truly addresses the systemic causes of Germany’s economic trouble is being addressed.

The ONLY thing keeping Germany afloat today that has any positive indication is its exports. Now, imagine your #2 export partner the US, has an economy that begins to cool - As it is. Do you realize that nearly every second Porsche built goes to the US? Hint, it’s luxury products and articles that get hit first and hardest. What impact will the US withdraw military and other governmental agencies have from Germany? Minimal, but nonetheless some. Approximately 30 towns/communities will be affected by this. The US military historically were themselves a near 10 Billion US dollar money injection into the German economy.

As to cheap labor in Germany- Those investing in Europe today are looking at nations like Poland, Check Republic, Slovenia, Hungary today. Germany in all reality is a EXPENSIVE place to operate out of. While Germany still has world wide some of the highest and best productivity rates (Among the top 5 or so), the ‘Lohnnebenkosten’ in social costs are also some of the least attractive. Just look at what an employer has to cost share in medical, retirement and other costs! Costs in energy, taxes, water, road usage…….are all high in reality. But it gets worse. Highly regulated, slow bureaucracies and massive environmental constraints have squeezed certain industries out of Germany all together. Find a place that still does Zink work in Germany. Ask Siemens how the nuclear power industry is going. Within Europe Germany is NO low cost nation to produce in, and on the world stage it’s one of the more expensive ones. The US military leaving Germany to a large degree is nothing but a business decision and while the average German does not see it and maybe even welcomes this trend, the same forces that are making them choose to leave are also making others leave. Continental tires left in the early 90s to the Check Republic for example. If you buy a ML Mercedes in Germany, that car was built in the US.

The point is that long term even in this last bastion of hope the Germans have has storm clouds on the horizon.
Things will not go to worse over night and implode. But as a nation Germany will just malinger. The rest of the world in the meantime is moving on without them.

As to language and influence- It’s not even the US I was talking about. Go to the US and into a McDonalds. Get a happy meal for you kid and look at the languages on the package: English, French, Spanish. German? Nope. My wife is a foreign language teacher for German. German is among the smallest programs with both French and Spanish having far greater participation. Hell, some schools have larger programs in Asian languages than German! It’s not just English and the US my friend. It’s not the dominance of the US which you seem to believe, it’s the fading away of Germany even in relation to others! It’s Germany vs. everyone, and you’re still fading away from the world stage. It says something when Latin and German have about the same number enrolled in class. Compare Germany with Brazil in economic terms: 1.6 trillion 2.4% growth to Germany 2.3 trillion .9% growth (Real net growth). What about Russia with 1.6 Trillion and 6.4% growth? Let me make this real simple- Today Germany is place 3 (US/Japan). In 20 years Germany will be place 5 (China/India). In 30 years Germany will be place 7 (Russia/Brazil) - get it? This is not based on a forecast of only some trend of the last year but over what has been happening for a decade now. Just like you birthrate which is creating a negative growth has been a longer trend, so has Germany’s loss in ground to others on the world wide stage.

Germany is fading away in its significance in EVERY way - It economics, security, political influence and even culturally. The decrease in interest in German as a language world wide is but one of many many indicators of this trend.


49 posted on 08/24/2006 11:30:11 AM PDT by Red6
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To: Red6

''Things will get worse before they get better''
I agree to this and many more points you made.
We will see what is going to happen politically in the near future. You have again managed to frustrate me with your predictions. Hence I urgently need a treat now and decided, to attend a soccer match (Bayern/Nürnberg) at the new Munich stadium this weekend.
It is said to be the most modern of its kind in Europe
(that should distract me for a while-lol)
Have a good weekend.


50 posted on 08/24/2006 3:10:35 PM PDT by skraut
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