Germany in the Cross-hairs

Der Spiegel ^ | 21. August 2006 | Yassin Musharbash

[Red6]

(Machine Translated) *Critical excerpts of the text:

Till this day Islamic terrorists have not succeeded yet in striking in Germany. But mean the mess according to unanimous expert's opinion nothing. Above all not, because it already three attempts given hat:

In 2002 one wanted to commit an Abu Mussab al-Sarkawi attached terror cell posters against Jewish and putatively Jewish equipment in Berlin and in the Ruhr area.

In 2003 Tunisian Ihsan Garnaoui should have planned to explain a poster in the midst of a demonstration in Berlin.

In the end of 2004 lifted security services a group of Kurdish Iraqis become extinct, die to " Ansar of Al Islam " belonged and planned apparently to murder hobby room Iraqi interim premier Ijad Alawi at that time during a state visit in Berlin.

*But here is the Key argument of the article:

The war, hobby room bin Laden appealed, war the United states-controlled campaign against Afghanistan, after hobby room to terrorist attacks from the 11th September, 2001 been initiated to war. Differently than in the case of the invasion begun in 2003 in the hobby room war of Iraq the federal republic involved dies. Therefore, Germany and blow net are a citizen since that time already potential terror purposes.

In May, 2004 the document was delivered for the fact that still gilding also dies after the beginning of the Iraq war: the mitt in of the Saudi-Arabian capital Riad three terrorists shot hobby room Germans Hermann D. " the Mudschahidin in Riad have killed a western unbeliever

[Jack Hammer]

Yes, I see. Thank you.

[wolf78]

Actually it is Europe that IMPORTS the predominant part of it's oil from the Middle East, not the US. It is Germany that IMPORTS over 2/3rds of their consumption, while the US covers near 2/3rds of their own demand through domestic production.



...a whopping 3%...

As so often your facts are outdated. It's 4.5%.

[Red6]

Your so full of shit.

Drive down the A5 once! Look at the ruts in the Autobahn. The German road infrastructure is incapable of meeting demands. For years there has been reluctance to expand roads, widen Autobahns and Bundesstrassen etc. Today you have a situation where people sit 40 minutes in a Stau to get into Frankfurt. The stretch between Frankfurt and Heidelberg is over loaded as are many many other stretches. Go drive down your roads in downtown Frankfurt. The infrastructure has neither kept up with demands and has fallen behind in it's quality. The once world known Autobahn which was smooth, flat, and pothole free in the 80s in not there anymore.

I suggest you go into a German hospital and look at your MRI machines. We export the ones you use to Russia! Obsolete by todays standards. But what can you expect from a "state managed" health care system. You guys use glass IV bottles for crying out loud! Some of the hardware you have in a hospital belongs in a museum.

[Red6]

:) Ok- you do have a sense of humor!

[Red6]

As to post #19-

Realize that your making my case with the examples your trying to give. What is he really saying? Disengage!

The writer of this article more or less reinforces the concept of appeasement and disengagement. If only Germany stuck its head in the sand, then the Islamists would leave us alone. This thread of thought runs deep in German society. Look at self censorship reference the Mohamed cartoons or during Fasching. The Germans are appeasers. They will only tear their mouth open with the US because they know we won't bomb them. Reference Libya even a few years ago they again were cowering in the corner hoping that if they say nothing and do nothing maybe they will be spared if the situation ignites again as it did in the 80's. But were they in range of those TBM's? Yep

[wolf78]

The joys of anecdotal evidence... ;-).

I bet somewhere in an Islamist forum someone is quoting Henryk M. Broder's "Wir kapitulieren" (Hoorray, we surrender!) from a few days earlier (also Spiegel Online) as proof that Germany is indeed part of the jewish world conspiracy and much worse than even the great Satan US *LOL.

And I'm not saying you're completely wrong. I just want to point out that your line of argument is sometimes sloppy and some of your conclusions premature.

I indeed value your criticism, but I'd much rather have the whole breadth of the problem than just the talking points.

[Red6]

"anecdotal evidence?" What that means is that you have no arguments and have to discount what I'm saying with a hand wave. But I understand, the Germans are good at "Axelzucken"

Libya
Iraq
Downplaying of the terror threats
Iran
Cartoons
Today with Israel

Look at how the German brushed aside the Muslim riots in France. They 'pretended' as if this is an issue about disenfranchised youth, who just happen to be near all Muslim.

Think about this - An actual initiative to strike certain words that are deemed inflamitory and these efforts are all aimed at appeasing the Islamist. "Kein Blut fuer Oel" or "Heuschreken Kapitalistinen" that's OK, but don't say anything that may make an Islamist angry.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/980 (Sad isn't it?) The same Germans that like to run around and call American's names are those who are muzzling themselves in respect to Islamists.

Their media is littered with arguments and reasoning that is defeatist, appeasement, and disengagement focused. Even their political leaders echo words that are weak, feeble, and subordinating to any threat. They're just waiting to die.

[attiladhun2]

I agree. There are a bunch of lefties and tree-huggers running Europe at this time and probably only about 35% of the people are smelling the coffee. However, as the Muslims demand more and more and are emboldened to committ acts of violence, that percentage will grow. Europeans have been ruthless with these people before, and I doubt if 60 yrs of Euro-weenerism has bred that out of them. There will be a crossroads some time in the near future, and I think the the Europeans are not going to want to see their societies taken over by a bunch of goat-boinking sand-nazis.

[Red6]

More anecdotal evidence: http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,1289545,00.html

You know the sad part? While the Germans don't advertize it, everyone already knows it. Deutschland ist erpressbar.

[skraut]

Red6:
''As I said before, the Germans are a dying society, people, economy, and political system. It is their own ideology that will lead to their demise.''
As a German with a libertarian point of view - yes, that is a minority in Germany - I have to concede, that you make same valid points. Your analysis is - as always - brilliant, but your conclusions miss the point again. As German people we have survived plenty of horrible disasters in the last 2000 years( self inflicted and inflicted by others).We won't be run over by some Dark Ages ideologists either(no matter what you try to conclude from this leftist MSM cr*p). And I believe that is valid for other European countries as well. Maybe you should do, what Chancellor Kohl did : he disregarded SPIEGEL during his government completely (and refused to give them an interview at all - I believe, he called them ''Dreckschleuder '')
I'm not asking for it , BUT , if some major incidents are going to happen on German soil you will finally have to understand that you have confused(misread) the substance by looking only onto the surface.

Dark Skies:
''But the German people will not die and a new society will be born from the ashes of the old one, IMHO. The Old Europe of the left is dying because it isn't vibrant and alive...it just doesn't work.
I don't think it will replaced with Islam...at least without an earth shaking war to the death.''
Good points!!.
atitiladhun2:
''However, as the Muslims demand more and more and are emboldened to commit acts of violence, that percentage will grow. Europeans have been ruthless with these people before, and I doubt if 60 yrs of Euro-weenerism has bred that out of them. There will be a crossroads some time in the near future ..''
They might just be dump enough to proceed with more violence. It's not difficult to predict a more serious backlash.

[Red6]

Reality hurts sometimes.

I love the US Army. I was an Airborne Ranger and served in Iraq. I think the mission in Iraq is both necessary and legitimate. HOWEVER, I would be in denial if I stated that the war in Iraq is not slowly depleting and draining the US Army and Marines. The USAF and USN are unscathed, but the Army in order to meet recruiting goals has dropped some of their educational, age, and background check requirements. A 42 year old enlisting 7 years ago would have been unheard of. Both personnel and equipment is under stress and being burned up. Billions are spent and much of that is not completely covered by defense authorizations for Iraq and Afghanistan. Soldiers are dying and many are getting crippled. You are seeing many jump off the boat as they saw hard times ahead and to meet the required rank structure they are promoting officers and enlisted men extremely quickly. Today you see captains with 3.0 years in service. Something you would not have seen in 2002. Helicopters are aging through excessive use, tanks are getting shot up, new equipment that should have come is not because funds were diverted to other causes which legitimately are now more important that we are in war.

No matter how much I agree with the war, the way we are executing it (Even that is being done right) and how much I loved to soldier and respect our armed forces, the reality is that our military is getting depleted. It is not as dramatic nor as extreme as the NYT's would like one to believe, but nonetheless true. It's not happening over night, but it is happening slowly, one little piece at a time. It is a war of attrition, and ultimately we can win, if the public does not loose its nerve. In the process however, we will get hurt.

The patient Germany is no different. All indicators point down. Good news for the Germans is stagnation. If they manage to get their unemployment down to 10% and 2% growth that would be the best one can hope for and frankly that's bad. Even German as a language is on the decline. That's a fact, and it says something about a cultures world wide influence and significance. Germany is not only economically sick, they are also culturally, militarily, and politically declining. The core, the root of Germany's demise is based on an ideology of socialism. This way of thought spans beyond some social programs, it's a dogma. It even becomes a "Religions Ersatz". How much sense does it make to raise the VAT to 19%? What economist will tell you that's a good idea? Germany is driven by an ideology, an ideology that is even influencing the transatlantic relations, Germany's views on economics............ Germany today is a confused nation. They don't even know who their friends are!

If the 'trend' does not change, and it has not for over TEN YEARS (Double digit unemployment is nothing new to Germany), Germany will just fade away on the world stage as a player. If the 'trend' does not get turned around, Germany in 20 years will be worse off than today. Germany is today a near basket case. The fact that the Germans throw their hands up in the air, point their finger at other, but make no changes themselves is an indicator of where this 'trend' will continue to go along. Please tell, what profound 'systemic' changes are happening? Besides making the Americans their new Jew and calling them locust capitalists, what are they doing different?

If Germany were attacked tomorrow successfully and hundreds died, the Germans would see this as validation to give up and abandon Afghanistan or even take a lighter position on Iran. People like Atlantic Bridge, a self proclaimed German conservative would see this as validation to disengage with the problem Islamic terror. Do you think this is a healthy perception that will lead to any solution?

[Schweinhund]

The 'locust capitalist' debate had nothing to do with America, as you are of course eager to be insulted of. It was rather a helpless response of the government to the fact that globalisation is the lever needed to seperate social democracy and working economics.

The main point behind your pathos is of course valid:

"Please tell, what profound 'systemic' changes are happening?"

There are changes on many levels (most surprising to me is that even parts of the German union system are trying to adapt in a sensible way) but our government sucks ass. Besides, it's only 17% VAT. I had my hopes up that a big coalition would be able to force through significant change but up to now nothing has happened.

Besides, you might find this link interesting. And if you choose to read the full thing, I would like to hear your opinion on it, as I am not an expert in these matters.

http://inef.uni-due.de/page/documents/Report81.pdf

[An.American.Expatriate]

The 'locust capitalist' debate had nothing to do with America, ...

Um, then how do you explain this: Kapitalisten, aufgepasst!

or this

[An.American.Expatriate]

Besides, it's only 17% VAT.

Um, what is this then?? Erhöhung des Umsatzsteuersatzes von 16 Prozent auf 19 Prozent zum 1.1.2007

[Schweinhund]

Well, that's an union magazine. The article you quote puts quite clearly that the biggest link of the list to the USA was that the Carlyle Group was in it.

[Schweinhund]

Oh...my bad.

[An.American.Expatriate]

Well, that's an union magazine.

Oh, how silly of me to equate IG Metall and the SPD / Münterfering - obviously, they are totally at odds.

I guess that even your own media made the incorrect assuptions at the time - even they "knew" immediately to whom he was refering.

[Schweinhund]

But the article you quoted says nothing of that. The arguments in the German media revolved more around the German corporations attacking Müntefering and the Left Wing happily adopting it and blowing it up, like this IG Metall magazine. And of course the unions and the SPD have a history of cooperation on each other, but you assume wrong if you link them like you do. It's about as wrong as assuming the Arbeitgeberverband is a subdivision of the CDU. They have common interests, but naturally the IG Metall is much more socialist than the SPD, and since the party tries to adopt this New Left image it's a growing pain in the ass for them.

[An.American.Expatriate]

Pardon my being blunt - but Münterfering is a member of IG Metall Jeder Dritte ist DGB-Mitglied

Page down to near the bottom of the list of "DGB-Mitglieder unter den Abgeordneten der SPD-Fraktion" and you will find: "Müntefering, Franz IG Metall"

[Schweinhund]

That's not blunt at all. Rather interesting because I didn't know about the scale up to now. Thank you for the information.

But him being a member doesn't really make him or the SPD a puppet of union interests, or shows that the IGM and the SPD are closely coordinating their politics.

Examples:

http://www.friedenskooperative.de/themen/deeska59.htm

Search for Müntefering or Schroeder.

There are close relations to the SPD and as your link showed me, the majority of the SPD are members of Unions (though not necessarily of the IGM). But the German Unions are still strong enough to have an agenda of their own, which is generally far left of the SPD's agenda. And as I also pointed out in the post before, the Unions and the SPD had several arguments during the Schroeder period, mostly because the SPD is trying to evolve into a 'New Left' party to draw more support from other groups in the german society.

And the list in itself only critizized investment groups. It was the IGM cover that helped delegitimate the critizizm as antiamerican and antisemitic (because many of the listed big investment groups are owned by Jews, it seems). I just read that on wikipedia [http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuschrecken_(Politik)]. I have to admit that I didn't follow the debate too closely at that time because I felt that it was just another case of politicians blaming their inability to adapt to a changing market on economic evolution itself.