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When Smugglers Try to Run You Over With a Vehicle...
U.S. BORDER PATROL Local 2544 Tucson, Arizona ^ | August 26, 2006 | Texas Old Dude

Posted on 08/26/2006 11:19:50 AM PDT by Texas Old Dude

When Smugglers Try to Run You Over With a Vehicle........08-26-06 You're supposed to; A. Shoot at them; B. Chase them; C. Wave at them and say "Bienvenidos a Los Estados Unidos"; D. Throw a pamphlet at them on how to apply for Amnestia; E. Offer them food, water, medical care, and counseling at taxpayer expense; F. Beg them not to report you to OIG and/or the U.S. Attorney's office for using an expletive when you dive for cover; or G. Let them go. We realize you probably thought this was a trick question, but of course the correct answers are C, D, E, F, and G (failure to complete all 5 procedures could subject you to severe disciplinary action). Trying to run someone over with a vehicle would be a felony called "assault with a deadly weapon" in most states, but in California their BP brass says that once the smuggler tries to run over you and goes by, you don't even have the authority to chase him because "the threat has passed". This ACPA went on to state that even if he tried to run over three (3) agents in three (3) different locations, that we have no authority to chase him. The next thing they'll come up with is "when a smuggler tries to shoot you, you can't shoot back because the threat (bullet) has already passed". This may be one of the most laughable days in BP history, aside from the implementation of the disgraceful Non-Pursuit Policy in 1992, and the day David Aguilar was promoted to Chief of the BP a few years ago. On a serious note, if anybody doubts that Border Patrol agents are under attack by the United States government, polish up on the Ramos and Compean debacle in El Paso (below in "Agents Railroaded........"), and then read the entire story about how we're not supposed to chase anybody on the NBPC 1613 web site here. This smuggler tried to run down three Border Patrol agents with his vehicle, and the Border Patrol agents have been disciplined for chasing him. Unbelievable.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; US: Arizona; US: California; US: New Mexico; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: aliens; borderlist; bordersecrity; bordersecurity; bush; california; conservatism; constitution; corruption; culture; globalism; government; illegalaliens; illegalimmigration; immigrantlist; immigration; islamicjihad; jihadinamerica; pandering; security; society; terrorattack; terrorism
I thought from recent news stories we were making progress on the border control...this is crazy.

The first post was pulled by Admin, I corrected the items pointed out by Admin.

This thread has been pulled. Pulled on 08/26/2006 12:06:06 PM CDT by Admin Moderator, reason:Doesn't belong in Announcements or Breaking News or 90% of the States you spammed.

1 posted on 08/26/2006 11:19:52 AM PDT by Texas Old Dude
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To: Texas Old Dude

Thank you Old Dude, this is one old Dudette that agrees with you and the threat to our country.

How can we get rid of these bureacratic aristocrats?


2 posted on 08/26/2006 11:27:29 AM PDT by squarebarb
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To: squarebarb

http://www.nbpc1613.org/

has probably read about the case in Texas where Border Patrol Agents Ignacio Ramos and Jose Compean were prosecuted for doing their jobs. The facts in that case are still unclear, but the Assistant U.S. Attorney Debra Kanof wasted no time citing the Border Patrol's pursuit policy when she said, "It is a violation of Border Patrol regulations to go after someone who is fleeing." She also said, "The Border Patrol pursuit policy prohibits the pursuit of someone."

I know a lot of agents scratched their heads when they read these statements, but I think agents will understand how the AUSA came to this conclusion once you read about a case NBPC Local 1613 arbitrated on August 17 and 18, 2006. In this particular case, the Union represented six union members from two different stations (four CAO agents and two ECJ agents). The following provides a brief background of the case and highlights from the settlement discussions and arbitration.

BACKGROUND

On January 9, 2003 at 1600 hours, a citizen called to report a pick-up truck loading up with approximately twenty (20) illegals near the mission in Tecate, CA. One Border Patrol Agent spotted the vehicle and attempted to conduct a vehicle stop, but the vehicle failed to yield. Supervisors authorized agents to set up a spike strip on three occasions at three different locations.

At the first location, the driver accelerated and drove at the agent who was deploying the spike strip. The agent jumped over some brush and landed in a barbed-wire fence, causing the agent to get injured.

The agents were not able to make it to the second location on time. At the third location, the smuggler violently swerved at the agent, causing him to dive into some oak trees where the agent found safety behind one of the trees. Although the agent had to dive for safety, he successfully spiked the vehicle.

Approximately 1/4 mile later, the smuggler drove his vehicle into opposite lanes of traffic and aimed his vehicle at another agent who was trying to perform traffic control near the spike zone.

Following directions from their supervisors, several agents pursued the smuggler on I-8 and ECJ agents followed, as directed, to assist if the smuggler pulled over for a bail out.

The smuggler ultimately lost control of the vehicle and crashed into a guard rail on I-8. Some of the aliens in the back were thrown from the vehicle. The agents provided medical assistance to the aliens and apprehended the smuggler.

To give a better understanding of how the BP vehicles were lined up in this case and to understand the discipline that was proposed for these agents, I will present the following:

Vehicle 1: One Horse Patrol Agent - discipline and dispo unknown (not represented by the Union)

Vehicle 2: Two CAO Agents - Driver received a 5 day suspension and passenger received a 1 day suspension. The Agency cited sections IV (B), IV (C), and IV (D) of the pursuit policy for both the driver and passenger.

Vehicle 3: Two CAO Agents - Same suspensions as vehicle 2 (passenger of this BP sedan was the second agent who the smuggler attempted to run over). In addition to the sections of the policy cited above, the Agency also cited sections X (B) and X (C) of the pursuit policy for both agents.

Vehicle 4: One ECJ Agent - 5 day suspension and dispo unknown (not represented by the Union)

Vehicle 5: One ECJ Agent - 5 day suspension and all of the sections of the pursuit policy listed above.

Vehicle 6: One ECJ Agent - 5 day suspension and all of the sections of the pursuit policy listed above.

Most of these agents were not directly behind one another and they were only following to provide assistance if the smuggler pulled over to bail-out and/or providing a traffic break for any other traffic which may have been traveling behind the pursuit.

SETTLEMENT DISCUSSIONS

On July 29, 2006, the Union attempted to settle this case with San Diego Sector Assistant Chief Patrol Agent Steve Kean. The Union argued the agents did not violate the pursuit policy and should not have been disciplined. We argued that the section of the policy about caravanning has a specific clause which allows for caravanning when there are exigent circumstances. We also argued that most of the agents who were cited with caravanning were not immediately behind the pursuit and in fact were approximately 1/2 mile or more behind. We explained that those agents cited for caravanning were following directives from their supervisors to provide assistance in the event of a bail-out.

In addition, we argued that the helicopter pilots were providing the communication during the pursuit, as directed by the policy. We explained that it would not make sense to have every agent on the radio communicating their location and the speed of the vehicle, as this would have resulted in chaos on the radio.

Finally, we referenced section IV D of the policy, which states, in pertinent parts:

Therefore, it shall be the policy of the Border Patrol that vehicle pursuits begin and continue only when the agent involved believes that the pursuit can be done with reasonable safety. In determining reasonable safety the agent deciding whether to initiate or continue a pursuit should consider the circumstances pertinent to the particular pursuit, including:

3. Nature of violation: commission of a violent crime or serious felony by the occupant(s) as opposed to suspicion of a relatively minor violation, such as entry without inspection may justify continuation of a pursuit. A greater risk may be justified by the more serious nature of the crime, especially when future violence is likely if the fleeing suspect is not apprehended.

We urged Sector to reconsider their decision in this case because the smuggler's several attempts to run over agents changed the pursuit from that of a typical immigration smuggling case to an assault on a federal law enforcement officer case. The agents witnessed this smuggler commit three separate felonies; thereby justifying a greater risk due to the serious nature of the crime.

ACPA Steve Kean said the agents should have terminated the pursuit because of the risk to the general public by pursuing a subject who was driving erratically and at unsafe speeds. The Union countered that ACPA Kean was conveniently citing one theory on police pursuits, but that the Union preferred the other theory which pertains to the smuggler being a greater threat to the public if not apprehended, as demonstrated by his attempts to run over the agents. Nevertheless, ACPA Kean stood his ground and the case proceeded to arbitration.

ARBITRATION

During arbitration, the Union and the agents heard more unbelievable statements from ACPA Kean regarding this case. While testifying on behalf of the Agency, ACPA Kean said the agents should not have pursued the suspect after he attempted to run over the first agent because "the threat had passed" and there was far to great of a risk to the general public. ACPA Kean said the smuggler would have never tried to run over the second and third agent if we would have terminated the pursuit. ACPA Kean continually referred to this as a basic smuggling case which did not justify a pursuit.

The attorney for NBPC Local 1613, Michael Baranic, asked ACPA Kean if the agent's would be allowed to continue the pursuit if the smuggler ran over the first agent. ACPA Kean said "no" because the "threat had passed" and it would be too great of a risk to the general public. Mr. Baranic asked what if the smuggler ran over the second agent also, and ACPA Kean said no for the same reasons. Mr. Baranic asked what if the smuggler ran over the third agent also, and ACPA Kean said no again and cited the same reasons.

Now, I don't know about you, but this is scary stuff. All along, we have all heard supervisors say we would chase someone to the end of the earth if they tried to injure or kill one of our agents. This is pretty basic stuff for law enforcement. If you allow someone to attempt to injure or kill, or injure or kill an agent and not respond, you send a message to the criminals that will have extremely negative consequences in the future. Our abysmal pursuit policy is proof of that since very few smugglers yield when we attempt to stop them because they know we will turn around after a few miles.

Once we have the transcripts from the arbitration hearing, we post actual quotations from the Agency's testimony. Until then, you decide what you want to do with this information.

Please direct any questions pertaining to this case to Chris Bauder at 1-800-620-1613, ext. 80.


3 posted on 08/26/2006 11:33:11 AM PDT by radar101 (The two hallmarks of Liberals: Fantasy and Hypocrisy)
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To: squarebarb
I really do not know, we elect them to fulfill our ideology, then they do what they want. By the time it filters down to the department heads it is 180 degrees out.
4 posted on 08/26/2006 11:33:47 AM PDT by Texas Old Dude
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To: Texas Old Dude

I choose A.


5 posted on 08/26/2006 11:34:35 AM PDT by Huntress (Proud owner of Norman/Norma, the transsexual cat.)
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To: Texas Old Dude
I really want to thank you for your post.

Because I think it is an important topic, could you please use paragraphs, next time?

Your presentation is begging people to skip over important parts of the (large) paragraph.

6 posted on 08/26/2006 11:36:54 AM PDT by gaijin
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To: gaijin

Noted, I suppose it was a bit lazy to simply "copy and paste"


7 posted on 08/26/2006 11:40:31 AM PDT by Texas Old Dude
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To: squarebarb
How can we get rid of these bureacratic aristocrats?

Good question....the evil premeates both parties and all 3 branches of government.....they are forcing it to a showdown in the streets of America.

8 posted on 08/26/2006 11:42:09 AM PDT by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: Texas Old Dude

Our Border patrol should be issued second hand Chevy Vegas. Then they could chase these folks to their hearts content. They would never catch them but the chase wouldnt last long.


9 posted on 08/26/2006 11:43:09 AM PDT by sgtbono2002 (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: sgtbono2002

Yes, and arm them with slingshots with pea gravel as ammo.


10 posted on 08/26/2006 11:45:58 AM PDT by Texas Old Dude
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To: sgtbono2002

Actually, BP has a "Non-Pursuit" Policy.
The rule is: If the suspect violates ANY traffic law, you are to:
turn off the lights and siren
and
return to your post.


11 posted on 08/26/2006 11:52:12 AM PDT by radar101 (The two hallmarks of Liberals: Fantasy and Hypocrisy)
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To: Texas Old Dude
This report made me so mad, it's just incredible.

Are you BP? Man, I feel soooo sorry for those guys...!

12 posted on 08/26/2006 11:52:14 AM PDT by gaijin
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To: gaijin

No, I am an Oilfield Worker, but I am not happy about the border situation, to say the least.


13 posted on 08/26/2006 11:57:40 AM PDT by Texas Old Dude
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To: Texas Old Dude

I applaud you and stand beside you in your desire to perform your duties. As a former Border (Patrolman) in the 1950's and a Customs Inspector retired 1989 I realize how dangerous and depressing it is for your agents to be under this type of diress.



We have to continue to awaken the American public to this situation and rally their support. I believe that it will happen. Additionally we have to elect good people to represent us in the Congress and the Presidency. Then that determination and support must be instilled in the leaders of the government agencies charged with enforcing the laws. From all i gather the new Homeland Security oversite of the new ICE is a disaster that has created poor morale and resulted in confusion and inefficiency.

Unfortunately we don't seem to have that support in our present President. As a life long Republican I am upset with both parties.



Sincerely
Name withheld (FR)
Calexico, CA


14 posted on 08/26/2006 12:02:16 PM PDT by dvan
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To: Huntress

Land Mines. FAR better solution. Just Set'em, and Forget'em...


15 posted on 08/26/2006 12:21:42 PM PDT by MedPig (There are VERY few problems you can't solve through excessive firepower...)
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To: Texas Old Dude

I guess in a dream world, Bush would step in and put a stop to this nonsense. But that's me dreaming.


16 posted on 08/26/2006 12:25:27 PM PDT by isom35
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To: Texas Old Dude

Talk radio has been hammering the Ramos and Compean story for a week, and it's evident that the pressure is building. One guest described the prosecuting US Attorney as "hysterical" about the scrutiny this is getting, and I think at a minimum there will be a congressional inquiry as to why these agents were prosecuted. If the details of the story were as I heard them and their appeals fail, the President ought to issue pardons to these men.


17 posted on 08/26/2006 12:33:33 PM PDT by John Jorsett (scam never sleeps)
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To: radar101
... implementation of the disgraceful Non-Pursuit Policy in 1992, and the day David Aguilar was promoted to Chief of the BP a few years ago.

Is this the same guy who told President Bush that the Minutemen were vigilantes?

18 posted on 08/26/2006 12:34:44 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done, needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Texas Old Dude
If those punks tried that assault on a private citizen, on his own land, here in Texas, their name would be, "Carne Muerte"...
19 posted on 08/26/2006 12:36:23 PM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: squarebarb
"How can we get rid of these bureacratic aristocrats?"

I *thought* that we had done what needed to be done, putting an allegedly conservative GOP President in office.

Oh, well: better luck next time...

20 posted on 08/26/2006 12:39:51 PM PDT by Redbob
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To: Texas Old Dude; sgtbono2002

oh!! Heavens' NO!!! not pea gravel , someone could be injured !!

. . . spitballs , and dayglo uniforms , with a cluster of helium party balloons on a long tether clipped onto each BP agent

( might as well go all the way , ... /srcsm )


21 posted on 08/26/2006 12:43:11 PM PDT by Dad yer funny (BinScentie Pox , BinLadin , 2 tall enemies)
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To: Texas Old Dude
We need an option H: Deploy your TOW missile.

You may sift through the debris and deport any portion of the smuggler big enough to identify, but leave the burning hulk as a warning to others.

22 posted on 08/26/2006 12:53:49 PM PDT by ZOOKER ( <== I'm with Stupid...)
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To: Vaquero

Nahh... America as a whole (with notable exceptions like most of the fine people here on FR) has become so complacent that I don't know that what you say is being forced is every going to happen.


23 posted on 08/26/2006 1:28:07 PM PDT by TheBattman (Islam (and liberalism)- the cult of a Cancer on Society)
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To: Texas Old Dude; Dane; sinkspur
Sounds like DANE and sinkspur have invaded the admin mods. Some people don't want attention focused on our borders.
24 posted on 08/26/2006 1:37:12 PM PDT by MrEdd (More cheep than a flock of baby chickens.)
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To: Texas Old Dude

bump


25 posted on 08/26/2006 6:46:22 PM PDT by lowbridge (I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not screaming, like his passengers.)
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