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2 Lodi residents refused entry back into U.S.
San Francisco Chronicle ^ | August 26, 2006 | Demian Bulwa

Posted on 08/26/2006 8:07:24 PM PDT by Mount Athos

The federal government has barred two relatives of a Lodi man convicted of supporting terrorists from returning to the country after a lengthy stay in Pakistan, placing the U.S. citizens in an extraordinary legal limbo.

Muhammad Ismail, a 45-year-old naturalized citizen born in Pakistan, and his 18-year-old son, Jaber Ismail, who was born in the United States, have not been charged with a crime. However, they are the uncle and cousin of Hamid Hayat, a 23-year-old Lodi cherry packer who was convicted in April of supporting terrorists by attending a Pakistani training camp.

Federal authorities said Friday that the men, both Lodi residents, would not be allowed back into the country unless they agreed to FBI interrogations in Pakistan. An attorney representing the family said agents have asked whether the younger Ismail trained in terrorist camps in Pakistan.

The men and three relatives had been in Pakistan for more than four years and tried to return to the United States on April 21 as a federal jury in Sacramento deliberated Hayat's fate. But they were pulled aside during a layover in Hong Kong and told there was a problem with their passports, said Julia Harumi Mass, their attorney.

The father and son were forced to pay for a flight back to Islamabad because they were on the government's "no-fly" list, Mass said. Muhammad Ismail's wife, teenage daughter and younger son, who were not on the list, continued on to the United States.

Neither Muhammad nor Jaber Ismail holds dual Pakistani citizenship, Mass said.

"We haven't heard about this happening -- U.S. citizens being refused the right to return from abroad without any charges or any basis," said Mass, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union.

(Excerpt) Read more at sfgate.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; US: California; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aclu; aliens; hamidhayat; hayat; immigrantlist; jaberismail; lodi; lodicell; muhammadismail; terrorists; theyarepakistanis; umerhayat; yourpapersplease
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1 posted on 08/26/2006 8:07:25 PM PDT by Mount Athos
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To: Mount Athos
Muhammad Ismail, a 45-year-old naturalized citizen born in Pakistan
I have no sympathy.
2 posted on 08/26/2006 8:09:32 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: Mount Athos
said Mass, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union.

What a surprise.

3 posted on 08/26/2006 8:10:35 PM PDT by operation clinton cleanup (Assistant to the traveling secretary.)
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To: Mount Athos

Too Bad. Bloods thicker than water. And probably patriotism too.

Keep em out of the USofA


4 posted on 08/26/2006 8:11:49 PM PDT by Dov in Houston
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To: Mount Athos
the United States needs to amend the Constitution to allow for the citizenship of such people proven to be involved in deeds against America to be permanently revoked .
Without appeal .
5 posted on 08/26/2006 8:11:55 PM PDT by LeoWindhorse
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To: operation clinton cleanup
Federal authorities said Friday that the men, both Lodi residents, would not be allowed back into the country unless they agreed to FBI interrogations in Pakistan. An attorney representing the family said agents have asked whether the younger Ismail trained in terrorist camps in Pakistan.

Doesn't sound so onerous to me. Answer the questions or don't come back.
6 posted on 08/26/2006 8:13:21 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Mount Athos
Lets see. You are a muslem with a known associates that is a terrorist and you are returning after 4 years from a country that has muslem terrorist training camps and you find it offensive that you are being given heightened scrutiny upon trying to return to this country?

GOOD ! ! !

7 posted on 08/26/2006 8:14:42 PM PDT by Delta 21 ( MKC USCG - ret)
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To: Mount Athos
Once again.....Pakistan and their cockroaches in the news....
There is a definite pattern there....

Semper Fi

8 posted on 08/26/2006 8:17:21 PM PDT by river rat (You may turn the other cheek, but I prefer to look into my enemy's vacant dead eyes.)
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To: Mount Athos

Make these guys an offer they can't refuse:

"Bring me the head of Osama BinLaden"


9 posted on 08/26/2006 8:19:45 PM PDT by gas0linealley
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To: Kozak

Are you people insane? An agent of the executive branch of the federal government, deciding for himself, without a trial, or even an indictment, that US Citizens should be barred from the country? That's OK with you? Maybe these two are dangerous, but that's what we have a court system for. If these two have done something illegal, then they should be indicted and tried. If the government wants to coerce them into talking about any possible criminal activities in which they may have engaged, then this line comes into play : "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself?"

This is an absolutely outrageous overreach on the part of some federal agent, who should have been fired yesterday for this action.


10 posted on 08/26/2006 8:20:43 PM PDT by Jubal Harshaw
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To: Jubal Harshaw

Get ready to be trampled.


11 posted on 08/26/2006 8:22:54 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Jubal Harshaw

""""Are you people insane? An agent of the executive branch of the federal government, deciding for himself, without a trial, or even an indictment, that US Citizens should be barred from the country? That's OK with you? Maybe these two are dangerous, but that's what we have a court system for. If these two have done something illegal, then they should be indicted and tried. If the government wants to coerce them into talking about any possible criminal activities in which they may have engaged, then this line comes into play : "nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself?"

This is an absolutely outrageous overreach on the part of some federal agent, who should have been fired yesterday for this action.""""

I agree, some fed barring US citizens from entry into the country is a very dangerous precedent. I can't believe he's doing this on his own. If there's a reason to suspect them of something they should be taken into custody and charged with something; otherwise, this agent whoever he/she is doesn't have a leg to stand on. Given that the admin. has even fined airlines for discriminating against Muslims, I can't believe higher-ups are allowing this to happen. Methinks there's a lot more to this story than is being reported.


12 posted on 08/26/2006 8:26:09 PM PDT by ElCid89 (the corps...the corps...and the corps...)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Jubal Harshaw

Sorry, but natural born citizens can be detained and interviewed when they return from aboard. The degree of questioning depends on where you've been, what you did.
Then there is the small matter that they aren't on US soil.


14 posted on 08/26/2006 8:29:27 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: 1rudeboy; Jubal Harshaw
"Get ready to be trampled."

Sad but true. Stripping the rights of a United States citizen with out any presence of a trial nor even leaving charges is insane. Anyone who would support such a move is quite literally an enemy of the state in my book.
15 posted on 08/26/2006 8:30:37 PM PDT by ndt
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To: Jubal Harshaw

Try to enter the US sometime while refusing to answer the questions of a customs agent.


16 posted on 08/26/2006 8:30:51 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Jubal Harshaw
they were on the government's "no-fly" list

It sounds like they may have already had their day in court...and may have been avoiding more by staying outside of the country. Other than that, I'd agree with you although it does bring up the issue of making a criminal case against them or an intelligence one. If the latter....good luck to the prosecution...they will need it.
17 posted on 08/26/2006 8:31:36 PM PDT by P-40 (Al Qaeda was working in Iraq. They were just undocumented.)
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To: investigateworld

We are not talking about detention. We are talking about being denied entry.


18 posted on 08/26/2006 8:31:39 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: ironpuppy

Question please

Are you related to any known terrorists ?

Just a question please and I seriously doubt you are however these two were and that makes more than probable cause to disallow re-entry. I am a Natural US Citizen (for generations) and if it is in the best interests of the USA to disallow me entry when I am returning from a foreign/anti american/islamic country

Than SO BE IT


19 posted on 08/26/2006 8:32:31 PM PDT by Dov in Houston
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To: ironpuppy
I apologize if I have offended you. Pakistani's are implicated almost 100% of the time. This is not USA, this is global. I had a friend after 9/11 who was a Sikh. I walked him through much of his life thereafter. He did not complain.
20 posted on 08/26/2006 8:33:27 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: Kozak
"Try to enter the US sometime while refusing to answer the questions of a customs agent."

They are not even being allowed to reach U.S. soil. There is a difference.
21 posted on 08/26/2006 8:33:35 PM PDT by ndt
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To: investigateworld

"natural born citizens can be detained and interviewed when they return from aboard"

OK, I've briefly been looking for evidence of that assertion. It is my understanding that a US citizen DOES NOT have to answer any questions put to him by government agents in the course of a possible criminal investigation. The fifth amendment could not really be more clear on that issue. Do you have a citation from any court that allowed the feds to exclude a citizen from entry based on excersising his fifth amendment rights?


22 posted on 08/26/2006 8:37:14 PM PDT by Jubal Harshaw
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To: kinoxi
"I have no sympathy."

Agreed. As the article states: "They've been given the opportunity to meet with the FBI over there and answer a few questions, and they've declined to do that," Scott said."

If you have a name like Muhammand, then go to a place like Pakistan for 4 years, and then refuse to answer some questions for the FBI, you should NEVER be allowed on US soil again, whether you were born here, naturalized, of whatever.

If the Muzzies refuse to own up to the behavior of their "brothers in arms", then the less in this country, the better.

It's time for Americans to grow up a bit and start looking at the world as it is, not as they may wish it to be. And I'm glad our government is (apparently) starting to wake up and fight these animals.
23 posted on 08/26/2006 8:37:44 PM PDT by BobL
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: Dov in Houston
"Are you related to any known terrorists ? "

It is a meaningless point. In this country, we are not responsible for the actions of our family (parents of minors somewhat excepted).

"f it is in the best interests of the USA to disallow me entry when I am returning from a foreign/anti american/islamic country Than SO BE IT"

Bull. You say that because you are sure they are not looking at you and you apparently do not give a damn about the rights of other citizens. The day they stopped you and denied you entry into your country with no charges, just on a whim, you would be crying bloody murder.
25 posted on 08/26/2006 8:38:36 PM PDT by ndt
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To: LeoWindhorse

I agree.


26 posted on 08/26/2006 8:38:37 PM PDT by kinoxi
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To: Mount Athos
"We haven't heard about this happening -- U.S. citizens being refused the right to return from abroad without any charges or any basis," said Mass, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union.

Oh, cry me a river. Of COURSE the ACLU (All Criminals Love Us)is representing these people. And I guess the "basis" is that they're terror suspects. Good enough "basis" for you, ACLU?

27 posted on 08/26/2006 8:40:54 PM PDT by hsalaw
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To: ElCid89; Dog Gone; NormsRevenge; dalereed; tubebender; calcowgirl; kellynla
I just read the quotation on your FR home page and am wondering how you square that quote that you obviously admire with your statement here on this thread, especially when you have just seen old ice cream pedler Hyatt just be set free amongst us by the hapless legal system that isn't what a nation at war uses against all seriously suspected enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Do we have a WOT, or do you think like the Demonicrats and the Clinton maladministration did, that we only have a Dept. of Criminal Justice process problem here???

What's it gonna be right here and now, El Cid???

28 posted on 08/26/2006 8:41:25 PM PDT by SierraWasp (I'm voting on everything except CA Governor this year cause there's NOTHING to vote "for"!!!)
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To: 1rudeboy

They've done something to get on the no fly list. Could be as simple as being at the wrong place/wrong time. Their not being held in a custodial situation (locked up) simply want to re-enter the USA without answering all the questions. Doesn't work at any airport or P.O.E I've ever been through. One tells the nice lady what ever she wants to hear or go sit in a cell till the memory comes back.


29 posted on 08/26/2006 8:41:26 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: ndt

Sorry, not buying. Being asked to answer some questions after a LONG period in an area known for it's ties to terror by relatives of an indicted terrorist seem to be reasonable precautions in time of war. We are at war remember?


30 posted on 08/26/2006 8:41:44 PM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: LeoWindhorse

There's always treason with its historical punishment.


31 posted on 08/26/2006 8:43:38 PM PDT by Paladin2 (If the political indictment's from Fitz, the jury always acquits.)
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To: Mount Athos; LeoWindhorse
"the United States needs to amend the Constitution to allow for the citizenship of such people proven to be involved in deeds against America to be permanently revoked ."

What do you mean by "such people"?

You can already lose your citizenship if convicted of treason or you serve in the military of a foreign country if that country is engaged in hostilities with the U.S.
32 posted on 08/26/2006 8:43:50 PM PDT by ndt
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To: ironpuppy
I suspect that a U.S. citizen returning from abroad could be detained at the U.S. port of entry for a week or so if his "papers are not in order," bearing in mind that it would be an administrative and not criminal detention . . . in the sense that a criminal detention requires formal charges after a set period of time, etc.
33 posted on 08/26/2006 8:44:32 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: ndt

No Sir I would not.

I would gladly allow the FBI to interrogate me. Answer all the questions asked and stay the course.

I have nothing to hide. And although at times we do not understand the workings of the American Legal system I have faith in it.

They were not offered Gitmo or detention they were asked to be interviewed and refused. Are they hiding something and if not answer a few questions and be done with it.

Nope Juries still in. Keep em out.


34 posted on 08/26/2006 8:45:09 PM PDT by Dov in Houston
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To: Kozak

1. Only congress can declare war
2. Congress has not declared war

THEREFORE:

3. do I really have to spell this out?


35 posted on 08/26/2006 8:45:22 PM PDT by Jubal Harshaw
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To: Marine Inspector

Your presence is requested.


36 posted on 08/26/2006 8:45:45 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Kozak
"We are at war remember?"

The constitutional rights of a U.S. citizens are not abridged by the declaration of war.
37 posted on 08/26/2006 8:46:54 PM PDT by ndt
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To: investigateworld

"Sorry, but natural born citizens can be detained and interviewed when they return from aboard. The degree of questioning depends on where you've been, what you did."

Yes, though I have never been detained myself, I have missionary friends who are occasionally asked to answer certain questions at entry points into the USA because, perhaps, of where they had traveled.

I believe that the searches at the airports are NOT random, as I have been told at airports. I believe that I am profiled by entries in my passport. I have been completely searched on 100% of my excursions outside of the USA in the past 6 years. I am a natural born US citizen, white, Vietnam era veteran. Now Christian missionary. But I have traveled in China, the Philippines and Russia. I believe the Philippines thing is actually the reason I get searched every single time.


38 posted on 08/26/2006 8:48:28 PM PDT by Free Baptist
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To: Dov in Houston

Not trying to pick a fight here, but where does this U.S. citizen stuck in Pakistan go to adjudicate his rights, if he chooses to do so? A Pakistani court?


39 posted on 08/26/2006 8:49:34 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
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Comment #40 Removed by Moderator

To: P-40

Perhaps they should take a boat? They can't FLY into the USA or anywhere inside the country.


41 posted on 08/26/2006 8:50:00 PM PDT by 1FreeAmerican
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To: Dov in Houston
"And although at times we do not understand the workings of the American Legal system I have faith in it...Are they hiding something and if not answer a few questions and be done with it. "

No, you do not have faith in our system. The Fifth Amendment allows them to do exactly what they did. If there are charges against them then they would need to be brought to trial.
42 posted on 08/26/2006 8:50:04 PM PDT by ndt
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To: investigateworld

The very first line of the article says they are relatives of someone CONVICTED in Lodi of helping terrorists!!! That's how they got on the "no fly" list I would suspect...


43 posted on 08/26/2006 8:50:22 PM PDT by SierraWasp (I'm voting on everything except CA Governor this year cause there's NOTHING to vote "for"!!!)
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To: kinoxi

scram mohammed


44 posted on 08/26/2006 8:50:37 PM PDT by shadowcat
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To: ndt
The constitutional rights of a U.S. citizens are not abridged by the declaration of war

Presidents Lincoln and Roosevelt thought otherwise and the USSC agreed.

45 posted on 08/26/2006 8:52:08 PM PDT by investigateworld (Abortion stops a beating heart)
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To: Jubal Harshaw

They declared almost unanimously the nearly unlimited use of force!!! You are gittin all het up over nuthin!!!


46 posted on 08/26/2006 8:54:21 PM PDT by SierraWasp (I'm voting on everything except CA Governor this year cause there's NOTHING to vote "for"!!!)
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To: ndt

If there were charges they would be in Gitmo or HCSD. There were "suspicions and reasons" and they declined to be interviewed.

No Charges=No Detention

And if you will not answer why you want in my house=GO AWAY

All they had to do was answer some interrogative questions.

The safety of America is at stake. Ask as many questions as you want


47 posted on 08/26/2006 8:54:25 PM PDT by Dov in Houston
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To: Jubal Harshaw

If they are already on the no-fly list, it would seem some due process has already occurred and this is not simply the work of one government servant. Don't forget the defense is free to say whatever they want but the government does not have the same luxury in, especially in national security cases, won't let out details even if they could. We're not getting the full story yet, nor should we at this time.


48 posted on 08/26/2006 8:56:48 PM PDT by NonValueAdded (Tom Gallagher - the anti-Crist [FL Governor, 2006 primary])
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Comment #49 Removed by Moderator

To: SierraWasp

You've got to be bigot for pointing out such blatant facts.


50 posted on 08/26/2006 8:59:59 PM PDT by kinoxi
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