These men think they're about to change the world

Guardian ^ | 24 Aug 06 | Steve Boggan

[1955Ford]

Heard the one about the two Irishmen who say they can produce limitless amounts of clean, free energy? Plenty of scientists have - but few are taking them seriously. Steve Boggan investigates... These dynamic and personable businessmen from Dublin insist that they have found a way of producing free, clean and limitless energy out of thin air. And they are so confident that they have thrown down the gauntlet to the scientific community in a bid to prove that they have rewritten the laws of physics.

[1955Ford]

My dad invented a similar machine in the 1960s. It consisted of four magnets on a wheel, each with the N end pointing out. On the base, another magnet with N end pointing to the wheel repelled the magnets on the wheel. The key to making the wheel turn was using a vertical shield that blocked the base magnet's field, so that the base magnet didn't repel a wheel magnet until it passed by the shield. I knew it couldn't work because it violated the conservation of energy, but I couldn't give a good explanation. Later I learned that the flaw in his design was that there is no way of shielding a magnetic field.

I suspect that is also the flaw in the design of the Irish gadget. Pity all the suckers who have put up money for it.

[sourcery]

Such schemes have an irrestible, magnetic attraction to some people.

[ConservativeMind]

But your father's invention worked to some extent?

[GSlob]

It is not for nothing they have TWO Irishmen inventing it: they have to take turns pedaling and powering their perpetuum mobile, working shifts. With only one inventor the machine would stop much sooner.

[taxesareforever]

These dynamic and personable businessmen from Dublin insist that they have found a way of producing free, clean and limitless energy out of thin air.

Psst, psst. They are called "windmills".

[LegendHasIt]

John Galt did it first.

[Danae]

I had the great honor of sitting in on a lecture by the great Chemist, Linus Pauling ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus_Pauling ) at Oregon State University (rm 124 GBAD I will never forget it!) during the whole "Cold Fusion" debacle. I have to thank the scientists Pons and Fleischmann for that truly great honor. It is not often one gets to sit in a room and listen to a Nobel prise winner thoroughly destroy the hottest "breakthrough" in history! It was AWESOME! I wonder what Mr. Pauling (God rest his soul) would think of this one.....

I wish them the best in the testing of this theory!!

[1955Ford]

No it never worked.

[Danae]

LOL
Who is John Gault?
LOL
(wink)

[1955Ford]

Pauling became somewhat of a crackpot himself before he died. It was sad to see it.
He was at UCSD when I was a beginning grad student there.

[ClaudiusI]

Art Bell changed his name and moved to England, I see...

[demlosers]

Zero Point Energy ...Huh.

[DB]

So their example from a video on their web site is that "when you walk up a hill and then walk back down you've gained energy".

Really. How does that work???

I wonder what their angle is - because I don't believe them for a second.

[demlosers]

"In the late 70s, an inventor Howard Johnson, claimed to produce a magnetic motor utilizing only permanent magnets. He received US patent #4,151,431 in April 1979. All subsequent attempts to re-create Johnson's motor, conducted by other inventors, have failed even though the blueprints and patent information is readily available. An article on the subject appeared in Science & Mechanics in Spring 1980."

http://www.rexresearch.com/johnson/1johnson.htm#scimech

[Atchafalaya]

and the friction thingy and all it brings to the table.

[DB]

In their video they also say how they have to fight "public opinion, the energy industry, etc."

Really.

All they have to do is do it. It would speak for itself.

Just more smoke and mirrors...

[AntiGuv]

FutureTechPing!

An emergent technologies list covering biomedical research, fusion power, nanotech, AI robotics, and other related fields. FReepmail to join or drop.

[prisoner6]

In the late 50's early 60's I saw a Joe Pynse segment with a guy who had sevearl magnets mounted around the perimieter of what looked like a plywood wheel. When he lowered another magnet into the center the wheel began to turn, although very slowely. No one could explain it, howevver I believe the inventor went on to get a patent on the machine.

I've been intrigued with magnets and electiricy ever since. Just this year I started experimneting with solar power. So far it's working better than I expected on a very small scale. ( a portable solar panel that charges a small gel cell that in turns powers a small b&w TV. I've aslo converted my outfdoor lighting to commerically available solar units including a 3 spotlight set on my flagpole)

My next step is to get a couple of ~70w panels and a couple deep cycle 220 amp hour batteries and see if I can generate and store enought power to run several lights or a small appliance or two.

In any case scoff at the Joe Pyne thing if you want but IIRC he also had segments with an inventor who proposed airbags for cars and another who proposed a seat that slid under the dash in a front end collision.

prisoner6

[marvlus]

Putting up £75,000 to put an ad in the Economist means these guys are believers in what they're doing. Whether they are fools or heroes - well that remains to be seen.

[Fresh Wind]

Whether they are fools or heroes or con artists - well that remains to be seen.

[CaliGirlGodHelpMe]

Sorry if this is way off-topic, but in his autobiographical book "Communion" Whitley Streiber relates his experiences of alien abduction, and during one such episode, the abductee was given the information that the spacecraft's source of power was counter-rotating electromagnets.

[Right Wing Assault]

Pity all the suckers who have put up money for it.

And, until their claims have been assessed by the jury, McCarthy says they won't be accepting any investor offers.

[FreedomPoster]

As a Georgia Tech-educated mechanical engineer with a strong background in Thermodynamics, my position on this is pretty predictable:

Click here

[Diggler]

Ha ha beat me to it.

If you try to get a look at the machine, it will automatically disintegrate into a fine dust unless you take the pledge first...

Although... do magnets need recharged after time? If you put two magnets with like poles facing each other, there is energy exerted on each magnet, pushing them apart. I guess the question is that is the amount of energy needed to fully 'charge' the magnets greater than how much energy they will give off pushing each other apart? Or, once they're initially charged, are they now in a state that will almost perpetually repel each other?

If, at a molecular level, the alignment would stay consistent, there may be something to this. But I'm not a physicist.

[AFreeBird]

As a Georgia Tech-educated mechanical engineer with a strong background in Thermodynamics, my position on this is pretty predictable:

So, all that is knowable is known, all the laws of physics that exist have been discovered. Close up shop everyone, there's nothing left to discover.

[LIConFem]

"Who is John Gault? "

Blasphemer!

;o)

[ItisaReligionofPeace]

Funny, those were my thoughts. It's like back 500 years ago when the heretic scientists discovered things that contradicted the scientific "laws" of the time. I'm not saying that these guys have necessarily found anything; I am saying that 500 years from now people will look back and laugh at some of our "laws".

[Diggler]

The biggest obstacle to accomplishing something is the belief that it can't be done. Which is why something like this WOULD be discovered by a couple schmoe's trying to power webcams instead of engineers who have been taught their whole lives that it can't be done.

The earth's been revolving around the sun for quite a long time, now... although it is slowing. Is it slowing because energy is being lost in the system, or is the 'magnet' of the sun slightly decreasing because of the slow depletion of its reaction energy?

[HisKingdomWillAbolishSinDeath]

I don't know about this machine, but what powers the earth to orbit and rotate. Ditto the sun, moon, and stars. Seems like the universe is full of an infinite amount of energy, if you can figure out a way to harness it.

[Lonesome in Massachussets]

That's why the U.S. patent office is legally barred from accepting applications for perpetual motion machines. There are lots of clever designs that are hard to refute.

BTW, you can shield a magnetic field, but it isn't easy. Even if it was easy, I'll betcha the sheilding material would wind up merely swapping energy with the field, taking as much energy to emplace as the rotor absorbed and having to give it all back when removed. You'd run down pretty quickly as friction absorbed all your initial energy investment.

(Swapping energy with the magnetic feild is how the solenoid on your starter motor works. Its iron core is spring loaded back, when you flux the solenoid, it absorbs energy from the magnetic field and is thrust forward, when you cut off the current by letting off the key, it retracts back out of the way. Moving the sheilding material would be something like forcing the solenoid core to move against the force of the field. You could make a "perpetual motion machine" wherein the solenoid core turned a crankshaft that turned a generator that fluxed the solenoid with a switch that reversed the current (no need for a spring!) at the right time. You could use a hand crank to get it going, - your initial energy investment - but it would quickly run down. Demonstrate it to "investors", telling them that you are one or two improvements away from making it practical.)

[SJSAMPLE]

Brilliant!!!

[FreedomPoster]

Perpetual motion schemes come, perpetual motion schemes go.

Wake me when these guys are selling power to the grid. Until then, I give you a great big < *YAWN*>.

[Malsua]

Sounds very much like what those Lutec guys are doing.

[Flavius]

[pgyanke]

[avg_freeper]

"I don't know about this machine, but what powers the earth to orbit and rotate. Ditto the sun, moon, and stars."

A mass in motion stays in motion. Their movement is due to kinetic energy.

[P-40]

Just this year I started experimneting with solar power.

Instead of trying the usual sunlight to electrical step, give the sunlight to mechanical a try. It is a lot more fun and you get to burn stuff. :)

[Draco]

I assume the company concerned is not publicly traded. Otherwise, a short-selling opportunity. (Yes, I am bad.)

[DB]

So go send your money to these guys and get in on the "ground floor"...

I know, they're not accepting new investors...

How lucky for you...

[DB]

Ignorance is bliss...

[Rockingham]

In fairness to Art Bell, he has a standard response to zero point energy and free energy claims: bring me a model, explain how it works, and let me have some experts of my choosing test it. As Bell usually adds, to date, no one has taken him up on it.

[FreedomPoster]

How much stock are you buying?

[DB]

None.

I believe 100% it's a scam.

You're the one saying it could work - because we don't know everything possible to know - so therefore no matter how unlikely (zero for all practical purposes) or how contrary it is to all we do know about physics it should be treated as if it were legitimate.

It is much the same as the "secret" carburetor that can triple your gas mileage... It doesn't matter that there's only so much chemical energy in a gallon of gas and it takes so much energy to propel the car - it could happen because we don't everything about everything... So no matter what anyone tells you you're going to leave room for the possibility and put down anyone who tries to point out otherwise.

[DB]

Oops...

I think we both got our wires crossed...

Sorry.

I was talking about the poster that was saying we don't know everything possible to know so it could work... Throwing what we do know out the window.

Based on your comment I thought it was he/she I was replying too. Which it wasn't...

We're in agreement on this subject. The "ignorance is bliss" was a comment on the replies you were receiving.

[reagan_fanatic]

"In the late 70s, an inventor Howard Johnson, claimed to produce a magnetic motor utilizing only permanent magnets



"You mean the Howard Johnson!?"

[mad_as_he$$]

There are ways of neutralizing a magnetic field. BUT the power demands are extraordinary.

[FreedomPoster]

Bingo.

[mad_as_he$$]

I was watching a show I think on Discovery a while ago discussing string theory and the ramifications of it on Einstein's work. If I understood the propeller heads correctly a ZP energy source MIGHT be possible under the new thinking of string theory. However, it will be years before anybody can prove or disprove it.

Of course the best thing would be if the ancients left one laying around and we happen to find it!!!! :-)

[CollegeRepublican]

Reverend Johnson: Order, order. Goddamnit I said "order".
Howard Johnson: Y'know, Nietzsche says: "Out of chaos comes order."
Olson Johnson: Oh, blow it out your ass, Howard.

[Rockingham]

Modern physics has quite a few gaps and incongruities, with more evident by the year. It is extremely unlikely that the Irish contraption is the real thing, but then again, Einstein was just a patent clerk until he explained Brownian motion, the quantum effect, special relativity, and the relationship between energy and matter -- all in the space of articles published over a period of a single year.