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Boy Scout Magazine Going PC?
The Carolina Journal ^ | 8/31/06 | Jon Ham

Posted on 09/01/2006 4:51:41 AM PDT by T-Bird45

RALEIGH — I’m never surprised to be hit in the face each morning with multicultural, victimization, support-group style reporting in my local papers. That’s the bread and butter of the mainstream media these days. But if any publication was going to resist the trend I figured it would be Scouting magazine. I was wrong.

Scouting bills itself as “a family magazine published by the Boy Scouts of America.” In the interest of full disclosure, I’m a big supporter of the Boy Scouts of America, was an avid Scout as a kid and am the father of two Eagle Scouts. I like the Boy Scouts’ no-nonsense, no-guilt, in-your-face advocacy of God and country and its ideals as set forth in the Scout Oath and Scout Law.

Imagine my surprise, then, as I leafed through the latest edition of Scouting magazine yesterday. The cover story, “Connecting Cultures,” sets the mood. It tells how Scouting helps Asian-Americans “become part of U.S. society while also maintaining cultural traditions.” Also promoted on the cover are “Boys with Autism Can Thrive in Scouting” and “A Bicycle Ride for Insight and Understanding.”

The theme is found throughout the publication. A news brief chronicles one Boy Scout council’s efforts to highlight “the issues of hunger, health, and shelter.” Another tells of a Cub Scout pack that was started for homeless boys. There are stories of Scout troops created for “sons of incarcerated mothers” and “disadvantaged youth.” Another story tells of a North Carolina man winning an award “for exceptional service and leadership to Scouts with disabilities.”

The “Riding for Insight and Understanding” story highlights a California council’s program to help Scouts gain a “deeper appreciation of different religious faiths.” A bike ride took Scouts to 12 houses of worship, including an Islamic Center, where they heard an imam discuss the sixth point of the Scout Law’s admonishment to be kind. Religion has always been a big part of Scouting, but only recently, it seems, is it assumed that Scouts won’t tolerate other religions without this kind of assistance.

The “Connecting Cultures Through Scouting” tells the story of a troop of Chinese-American Scouts. “We have many people from China, Japan, Vietnam, the Philippines, India, and Korea — as well as Caucasians, Hispanics and Native Americans,” one Scout leader said in describing the council of which this California troop is a part. While the council may be diverse, this featured troop most certainly is not. Is this an argument for segregation? Is this story saying it is better for troops to be homogenized rather than draw from many different cultures, races and religions?

In “Boys With Autism Can Thrive in Scouting — With Help,” Cub Scout and Boy Scout leaders discuss how they’ve dealt with Scouts with autism and “pervasive developmental disorders.” The story, written by the parent of an autistic child, encourages troop and pack leaders find ways to get autistic and developmentally disabled boys involved in Scouting.

Helping the disadvantaged, the homeless and the boys of the incarcerated are noble callings. Appreciating religions and cultural differences also are things a boy should be taught, preferably by his parents. I kept turning the pages to find articles about camping, hiking, first aid and lifesaving, anything that might make Scouting sound like fun instead of social work. Maybe they’ll be in the next issue.

Jon Ham is vice president of the John Locke Foundation and publisher of its newspaper, Carolina Journal.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: boyscouts; bsa; multicultural; pc; scouting; socialwork; victimization
I haven't taken the opportunity to read the latest Scouting magazine but had similar thoughts upon seeing the cover with the article headlines.

For those who are unaware, this magazine is sent to all registered leaders while the boys continue to receive Boys Life.

BTW, I fully endorse and fit the author's second/disclosures paragraph.

1 posted on 09/01/2006 4:51:42 AM PDT by T-Bird45
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To: T-Bird45

It would be so much more fun if Scouts lived in their own privileged world and never learned a thing about helping other humans, as well as learning how to tie knots.


2 posted on 09/01/2006 5:06:55 AM PDT by OldFriend (I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag.....and My Heart to the Soldier Who Protects It.)
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To: T-Bird45

My son is a Scout. It has done him worlds of good. When I see what it's done for him--the wonderful experiences he's had, the confidence he's acquired, the leadership skills he's developing, the friends he's made--I'm sad that there are poor or homeless boys who can't take part because of the expense and the lack of opportunity. I also regret that there are local boys who do have enough money in their families but don't get involved in Scouting because it's not part of their cultural tradition. An effort to reach out to groups like these is not a bad thing at all. Being a part of Scouting can only make these children better Americans and better men. If that's a liberal philosophy, too bad. Scouting shouldn't just be for rich or middle-class white kids.


3 posted on 09/01/2006 5:13:34 AM PDT by Fairview
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To: T-Bird45

I haven't read my copy yet. Let's hope it's an abberation.


4 posted on 09/01/2006 5:14:26 AM PDT by cyclotic (Support Cub Scouting-Raising boys to be men, and politically incorrect at the same time.)
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To: cyclotic

Let me correct myself. It's great that Scouts has special units for kids who don't completely fit the "norm."

However, I have a problem with a multicultural bike ride with a visit to the Imam. Right now, our nation is at war with large radical elements of the group the Imam represents. Too few Muslims have done any credible denials of the Islamofascists. Based on that, I would be very hesitant to inculcate any of my Scouts or my kids into aspects of the Islamic culture.


5 posted on 09/01/2006 5:19:03 AM PDT by cyclotic (Support Cub Scouting-Raising boys to be men, and politically incorrect at the same time.)
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To: T-Bird45
Helping the disadvantaged, the homeless and the boys of the incarcerated are noble callings. Appreciating religions and cultural differences also are things a boy should be taught, preferably by his parents. I kept turning the pages to find articles about camping, hiking, first aid and lifesaving, anything that might make Scouting sound like fun instead of social work. Maybe they’ll be in the next issue.

Sounds like you got a special one of a kind issue. What do you have against the scouts promoting to its scout leaders some of the outreach that the organization is doing to help the scouting movement and society. Do you really think the scout leaders need to be reminded about the fun of scouting?

Sounds like someone didnt learn from their parents about taking care of the disadvantaged, appreciating other religions and cultural differences. And since when is first aid and livesaving a fun activity.

6 posted on 09/01/2006 5:22:16 AM PDT by Dave S
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To: T-Bird45

There are two types of Scouting. Urban scouting is more service-oriented. Suburban and rural scouting is more skills and outdoor oriented.

The defunding of urban scouting has started to decimate its ranks. It could end up being a moot point. Scouting is HEAVILY dependent on funding these days. We have to pay the people who ask for funding and it isn't cheap.


7 posted on 09/01/2006 5:23:09 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: T-Bird45

There are two types of Scouting. Urban scouting is more service-oriented. Suburban and rural scouting is more skills and outdoor oriented.

The defunding of urban scouting has started to decimate its ranks. It could end up being a moot point. Scouting is HEAVILY dependent on funding these days. We have to pay the people who ask for funding and it isn't cheap.


8 posted on 09/01/2006 5:23:10 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: T-Bird45
The cover story, “Connecting Cultures,” sets the mood. It tells how Scouting helps Asian-Americans “become part of U.S. society while also maintaining cultural traditions.” Also promoted on the cover are “Boys with Autism Can Thrive in Scouting” and “A Bicycle Ride for Insight and Understanding.”

The theme is found throughout the publication. A news brief chronicles one Boy Scout council’s efforts to highlight “the issues of hunger, health, and shelter.” Another tells of a Cub Scout pack that was started for homeless boys. There are stories of Scout troops created for “sons of incarcerated mothers” and “disadvantaged youth.” Another story tells of a North Carolina man winning an award “for exceptional service and leadership to Scouts with disabilities.”

The ride to different religious houses sounds a little fruity, but I'm having a hard time figuring out why the rest of this is so bad. And are disabled kids somehow inherently inconsistent with "fun"?

9 posted on 09/01/2006 5:31:51 AM PDT by Sloth ('It Takes A Village' is problematic when you're raising your child in Sodom.)
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To: T-Bird45
...I kept turning the pages to find articles about camping, hiking, first aid and lifesaving, anything that might make Scouting sound like fun instead of social work. Maybe they’ll be in the next issue....

Don't count on it. It's tragic, the way PC has infected Scouting in the West. A hideous cancer, that there's no longer something to be robustly proud of and instead, we should ingratiate ourselves in submissive apologetic displays, towards every minority group that comes down the pipe. At exactly the time when we should be proclaiming the message that the Scouting experience provides answers to problems ranging from childhood obesity to lack of respect for seniors. Old-time leaders like myself give the mag a quick scan to see if there's anything in there about someone we know and if not, it goes straight into the bin.

10 posted on 09/01/2006 5:32:45 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: T-Bird45

Once again, it seems that a lot of people, even those IN Scouting, miss the actual point of Scouting--to develop the leaders of tomorrow. Scout skills are still very much a part of the overall program, but, thank goodness, BSA has evolved to recognize that the leaders of tomorrow must have a broader training. I read the latest Scouting magazine yesterday, and, as a compassionate conservative (yes, we really do exist and pray for George Bush's success every day), I think it's great. Scouting has not abandoned its core beliefs, but it's broadening them. And exposing more people to this great value system!! I took a group of Scouts to a local mosque after 9-11...maybe we should all start infiltrating them since they've been doing the same to us all this time?!


11 posted on 09/01/2006 5:35:11 AM PDT by HopeSprings
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To: OldFriend
..it would be so much more fun if Scouts lived in their own privileged world and never learned a thing about helping other humans...

Hitting the bottle early- or late?

12 posted on 09/01/2006 5:36:39 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: HopeSprings
...I took a group of Scouts to a local mosque after 9-11...

Thanks for demonstrating my point, Hope.

Did you apologise to the imam for the way we provoked 9-11?

13 posted on 09/01/2006 5:42:06 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie

Are you really that much of a jerk who can't see the bigger picture here? Do you just want to ignore our enemies, or do you want to engage them and find out what they're doing? Blind liberals are one thing...but just as bad are ignorant conservatives like you.


14 posted on 09/01/2006 5:44:16 AM PDT by HopeSprings
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To: Sloth
...I'm having a hard time figuring out why the rest of this is so bad....

At what point do you think you'll be able to 'figure it out', Sloth?

When Scouting publishes an account of a Troop visit to a gay Wiccan puppet theatre collective?

15 posted on 09/01/2006 5:47:27 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
How clever. Can't defend your position so I'm the drunk?

Good going.

Are these the manners you teach your scouts?

16 posted on 09/01/2006 5:47:57 AM PDT by OldFriend (I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag.....and My Heart to the Soldier Who Protects It.)
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To: T-Bird45

Maybe we should have the scouts set up camps just across the border from Mexico-- to help welcome the undocumented workers streaming across the borders by the thousands every day. They could "do a good turn daily" by handing out free water and food, while getting a dose of multiculturalism along the way. Two birds with one stone!

And what about practicing first aid on those poor, downtrodden undocumented masses? First Aid merit badge in no time!


17 posted on 09/01/2006 5:53:16 AM PDT by zipper
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To: HopeSprings
...are you really that much of a jerk who can't see the bigger picture here?...

Thanks Hope, but I can see the big picture just fine. Your little trip to the mosque is more Ward Churchill than Baden-Powell.

18 posted on 09/01/2006 5:53:39 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: OldFriend
...are these the manners you teach your scouts?...

No. I have a special responsibility, towards my Scouts.

I reserve these 'manners' for your kind.

19 posted on 09/01/2006 5:55:32 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: T-Bird45
This is just petty whining on the part of Jon the author of this piece. The Boy Scouts aren't simply an advocacy organization. I get so tired of people simply using organizations to push their own agenda regardless of how noble their beliefs.

The Boy Scouts are their to make men of boys. I see these stories as documenting that progress and encouraging others.

20 posted on 09/01/2006 5:55:40 AM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: T-Bird45

I never had much of an opinion on Jon Ham, the John Locke Foundation, or the Carolina Journal before today. I do feel that before forming an opinion on someone or something it (or they) deserve at least a standard level of respect to begin with. However, after reading this article, I have lost whatever amount of respect that was for this man, this organization, and their publication.

If someone can do a better job than Mr. Ham and explain to me what the Scouts are doing wrong, then go ahead. Because I don't see anything bad going on here. Clearly, this author has missed the point of what the Scouting movement is all about.


21 posted on 09/01/2006 5:57:10 AM PDT by BaBaStooey (I heart Emma Caulfield.)
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To: T-Bird45
Back in 1967 I was Assistant Scoutmaster in a troop in Manila that was Troop 351 of the Far East Council BSA and Foreign Troop 1 of the Philippine Boy Scouts.

Our members were mostly from the American School but were from many different nations. The parents were diplomats or business types. The Scouting program has always been an international organization with international Jamborees to allow periodic gathering of Scouts from all over.

The efforts noted above often happen because parents or other adults want them. Scouting offers many opportunities for boys that are desirable in an of them selves. The seeming PC social aspects are peripheral.

An example is homeschooling. The Troop Committee of my current troop realized that we were being used by Home School families as an opportunity for learning and socialization. We had 25 % of our members that were home schoolers. families including younger sisters were active in many of our troop activities.

It was not planned, it just happened. It was a good thing.
22 posted on 09/01/2006 5:59:05 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. Slay Pinch)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
gay Wiccan puppet theatre

Helping autistic kids = homosexual paganism?

Screw you.

23 posted on 09/01/2006 6:00:06 AM PDT by Sloth ('It Takes A Village' is problematic when you're raising your child in Sodom.)
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To: T-Bird45

Does anyone rememember why Baden-Powell founded the Boy scouts?
It was so that the children of urbanized England could get exposure to life in the rough as teenagers, and learn the survival skills that would stand them in good stead with the British army. It has evolved into a service organization, to help kids. As someone who's grandfather, father, myself, and sons' participated in Scout's, and worked as a volunteer leader myself, it's the challenge to the Scouts to learn and master skills that they would otherwise never be exposed to that makes Scouting interesting and rewarding. Exposure to multiculturalism is standard school fare. Building a rope bridge across a river is not. Be prepared isn't taught in schools, neither is do a good deed daily.And our education system forgot the whole trustworthy,loyal, helpful,.... Well you get the idea.


24 posted on 09/01/2006 6:01:26 AM PDT by Waverunner
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To: OldFriend
as well as learning how to tie knots.

hehehe....I prefer, the old, practical, usable magazine ....Looks like Boy Scout Magazine, is sliding to Liberalism. :(

25 posted on 09/01/2006 6:01:36 AM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Just b/c your paranoid; Doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you. :^)
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To: T-Bird45

My article....."Lets Talk it Out: A Snake's Side of the Story"


26 posted on 09/01/2006 6:03:14 AM PDT by woofie
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To: T-Bird45
It tells how Scouting helps Asian-Americans “become part of U.S. society while also maintaining cultural traditions.”

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with maintaining cultural traditions, so long as they are within the bounds of U.S. culture. The problem is that so many new arrivals, legal or not, have no intention of assimilating.

27 posted on 09/01/2006 6:05:29 AM PDT by JimRed ("Hey, hey, Teddy K., how many girls did you drown today?" (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help m)
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To: Sloth
...are disabled kids somehow inherently inconsistent with "fun"?...

Where does the author say that?

28 posted on 09/01/2006 6:06:03 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: OldFriend

You said: It would be so much more fun if Scouts lived in their own privileged world and never learned a thing about helping other humans, as well as learning how to tie knots.
***

I think the emphasis of the post is that there was NOTHING about tying knots, camping, etc. in the edition of the publication referred to. It was ALL about diversity. The writer expressly states that the diversity references are good, but suggests that some entertainment and the "roots" of scouting be given at least fair treatment as well. I agree with him.


29 posted on 09/01/2006 6:06:25 AM PDT by NCLaw441
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To: HopeSprings

Scouting is about molding boys into Men of character... Cub Scouts = manhood 101
Boy Scouts = manhood 102

Scouting covers extremely broad areas... Scouting is different things to different kids, and its large and broad enough that they can explore all sorts of things and find the things they love and enjoy and also see and experience things outside their normal sphere.

Scouting has hardly gone PC... if it had, I know I certainly could not be a leader in it.

Now Girl Scouts on the other hand have completely betrayed their original mandate and now is basically run by a bunch of dykes and feminists at the highest levels that don't care a lick about raising women of character, just pushing political correct nonsense. Fortunately most local leaders are still reasonably sane, but the natioinal organization is doing its best to drive all semblence of traditional values out of the organization.


30 posted on 09/01/2006 6:07:58 AM PDT by HamiltonJay
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To: Waverunner

Baden-Powell also had great respect for other cultures and incorporated aspects of those cultures, like those of African tribes he encountered, into Scouting. I would much rather have the world exposed to Boy Scouting and its values than to have the Boy Scouts diminish in growth because of the fear of PC and of isolationism. Rascist and xenophobic Scout leaders do their Scouts so much more harm than good.


31 posted on 09/01/2006 6:08:28 AM PDT by HopeSprings
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To: BaBaStooey
...after reading this article, I have lost whatever amount of respect that was for this man, this organization, and their publication...

I'm sure all three will be distraught upon hearing this news.

32 posted on 09/01/2006 6:09:25 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: cyclotic
Too few Muslims have done any credible denials of the Islamofascists.

And since taqiyah (sp?), or lying to the Infidel for the advancement of Islam is part of their heritage, you can never believe any Muslim anyway. The more devout, the more true.

Off topic, sorry! < /rant >

33 posted on 09/01/2006 6:11:12 AM PDT by JimRed ("Hey, hey, Teddy K., how many girls did you drown today?" (Hello, I'm a TAGLINE virus. Please help m)
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To: T-Bird45
In “Boys With Autism Can Thrive in Scouting — With Help,” Cub Scout and Boy Scout leaders discuss how they’ve dealt with Scouts with autism and “pervasive developmental disorders.”

What interesting timing. I was just chatting with a colleague who has a son with PDD. She was just telling me what a blessing Scouting has been. Her son is a Webelos and loves the activities, loves the out-of-doors, loves being allowed to be a *boy* - none of which he's getting from his public school. I'd much rather young men learn good citizenship skills from an organization with a moral framework and tradition like the BSA than from an organization that is slave to a PC-driven agenda like the public schools. God Bless the BSA.

34 posted on 09/01/2006 6:12:32 AM PDT by Lil'freeper (You do not have the plug-in required to view this tagline.)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie
Where does the author say that?

He mentions not one but two articles on scouting for disabled kids, then says he couldn't find "anything that might make Scouting sound like fun instead of social work." I.e., spending time around handicapped kids is a drag and only someone engaged in PC 'social work' would willingly do so.

35 posted on 09/01/2006 6:14:05 AM PDT by Sloth ('It Takes A Village' is problematic when you're raising your child in Sodom.)
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To: Sloth
..i.e., spending time around handicapped kids is a drag and only someone engaged in PC 'social work' would willingly do so...

Horse hockey, Sloth. The author doesn't say anything of the kind.

What he is saying, quite accurately, is that Scouting (and for that matter, the movement) is in danger of being swamped by multiculti touchy-feely BS. Guiding has sadly succumbed to that, as another poster accurately mentioned. We in Scouting need to guard against the dilution of Baden-Powell's message.

36 posted on 09/01/2006 6:25:22 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: HopeSprings
...Baden-Powell also had great respect for other cultures and incorporated aspects of those cultures, like those of African tribes he encountered, into Scouting...

Respect, yes. Deference to, no.

37 posted on 09/01/2006 6:27:53 AM PDT by Byron_the_Aussie (http://www.iwo.com/heroes.htm)
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To: T-Bird45

From the sounds of this short article it does not sound as bad as what I was prepared to read. I think that the point that were made could be true with some kids and actually should be a positive look at it. A toubled kid joining scouts turns out to be a CEO of some big company. What is wrong with this type of story. I don't see anything PC about it. The bike ride to various churches was a little much but that was one troop that did that not the entire scouting program. I am not having heartburn over this story at this time unless I am not seeing something and an pointed out by a FREEPER.


38 posted on 09/01/2006 6:51:21 AM PDT by napscoordinator
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To: HamiltonJay

Ham,

Manhood 101 and Manhood 102. I use that in our recruiting flyers for our Pack and Troop.

Must be effective, we signed up 15 or so new Scouts last night. Our Pack/Troop is 100% Homeschooled, so our recuitment pool is a little smaller than normal. The new parents seemed to be highly engaged and excited about Scouting. I'm really geeked myself about this year.


39 posted on 09/01/2006 6:55:13 AM PDT by cyclotic (Support Cub Scouting-Raising boys to be men, and politically incorrect at the same time.)
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To: HamiltonJay
You are so right about the girl scouts, even down to the Brownie level. Good grief.

As for the Boy Scouts, I very much appreciated your comments. Our son is long out of scouts, out of the army, and working hard.

The poster who suggested I was drunk is a very poor example of what I hope is not a scout leader. That would be a shame.

Broadening the experiences of young boys is a worthy goal and I certainly approve. (but what do I know)

40 posted on 09/01/2006 7:31:27 AM PDT by OldFriend (I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag.....and My Heart to the Soldier Who Protects It.)
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To: Byron_the_Aussie

Thank heavens my son didn't have a scout leader like 'your kind'.


41 posted on 09/01/2006 7:35:29 AM PDT by OldFriend (I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag.....and My Heart to the Soldier Who Protects It.)
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To: HopeSprings

Funny , I have never associated the words rascist and xenophobic with scouting, and all of my scouting experiences have been in the states of Georgia and Florida.
Certainly Scoutings International Jamboree was going on long before integration happened in mainstream society.
Bou Scout's Lead.


42 posted on 09/01/2006 7:36:48 AM PDT by Waverunner
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To: Waverunner

But we can't spell ( Boy Scout's Lead)


43 posted on 09/01/2006 7:37:41 AM PDT by Waverunner
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To: SandRat

ping


44 posted on 09/01/2006 8:30:42 AM PDT by beaversmom
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To: Waverunner

Ding- Ding- Ding

We have a winner. BP saw the effects of 'camp life' on conscripts in the Boer War (not the 1880-81 conflict) but the second Boer War of 1899 - 1902. His use of young boys during the siege of Mafeking give rise to information later found in Aids to Scouting for NCOs and Men.

Not a lot of scocial engineering in the book. It is about military skills and thinking for yourself.

To read BPs own words about the "WHY" of Scouting see http://www.dshearer.fsbusiness.co.uk/sctfiles/bp_talks.htm


45 posted on 09/01/2006 9:27:31 AM PDT by ASOC (The phrase "What if" or "If only" are for children.)
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To: T-Bird45

Ask your Dist Commissioner, Council Commissioner or your DE about the 5 Unacceptables.


46 posted on 09/01/2006 9:27:56 AM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: SandRat

Five unacceptables: Drug abuse, child abuse, hunger, illiteracy, and youth unemployment. Your point?


47 posted on 09/01/2006 11:00:45 AM PDT by T-Bird45
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To: T-Bird45

Just wondered if you'd heard about them. How that is presented at Commissioner training symposiums, depending on the Council, can get a little PCish. It came to mind as I'm the presenter at an upcomming Council Commissioner Symposium.


48 posted on 09/01/2006 11:57:53 AM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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To: SandRat

I have stayed at the unit level and have not attended Commissioner training to observe how much PC creeps in to the presentations. I can certainly see the potential for PC to rise to lofty heights, depending on the facilitator.

Personally, I think regular program elements address these matters without "special emphasis" because each of the unacceptables are in conflict with the basic tenets and core values within the Scout Law and Oath.


49 posted on 09/01/2006 12:43:24 PM PDT by T-Bird45
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To: T-Bird45

I know, I'm struggling to keep the presentation clean of PCisms.


50 posted on 09/01/2006 2:20:19 PM PDT by SandRat (Duty, Honor, Country. What else needs to be said?)
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