Posted on 09/04/2006 12:31:01 PM PDT by NormsRevenge
Unfortunately you're applying American philosophy to foreign states. If you call a Russian a Ukrainian, he'll pop you in the nose and vice versa. The same reaction a Texan would have if I called him an Okie. However, both are Americans. As far as this case is concerned: Ukraine, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Russia, etc., are ALL Sovereign Nations. The Soviet Union, thanks to Ronald Reagan, ceased to exist Dec 91.
If you were born in RUSSIA TEXAS or call Russia Texas your home... I don't give a ##%@ what color, creed, religion, whatever, you are. You are RUSSIAN TEXAN.
Still agree with that logic consdering we have yankee transplants, illegal aliens and muslims that refuse to assimilate here?
Actually, I am sure both of us can dig up plenty of examples of chess champions, inventors, etc., being to referred to as "russki" vs. "rossi'ski" without anyone bothering to correct the "error". This issue only comes up when criminals are being discussed :)
Actually, at least on FR, it comes up often. You know - with the "Russians" Stalin, Trotsky, Zinoviev, Beria, Menzhinsky, Yagoda, Drzhenskij, Khrushev, Brezhnev being used as examples by some to show "inherent evil" in the Russian race. Of course, you're surely well aware that the above are Georgian, Jewish, Mengrelian, Polish, and Ukrainian... ;)
This is a common trait regardless of the country. Mel Gibson was called an "Australian" by the British press until he made "Braveheart" and then they "discovered" his American origins...
PS - Richard Harris used to say the Brits would call him British when he received awards and accolades and label him Irish when he was arrested or made a drunken spectacle of himself.
I definately see your point, but this is not due to some conspiracy - there's just no seperate terms for Russki and Rossi'ski. Just as there's no separate terms to distinguish ethnicity and nationality when it comes to French, Italian, etc.
Agreed, but Kaganovich was from Ukraine, Stalin from Georgia, and Beria a Mengrelian from Georgia - all separate countries before the disaster.
It got a fair amount of local play in L.A. when they were arrested a couple of years ago.
Well Georgia and Ukraine were part of the Russian empire before the revolution :)
Of course. I'm not talking about personal opinion here. I'm talkin geographical fact.
Well you do have a point.... Too bad the only time they got together in cooperation was to destroy an "empire" and its inhabitants
What did ya expect from commmies?
Death, mayhem, repression, you know - Raj na zemle! ;)
Georgian and Ukrainian patriots fought against the Bolshevik Red Army with the west's help just like the White Russians did.
TGJ - true, and Georgian and Ukrainian communists fought against these guys. However, you are overplaying the support the West gave. It was minimal and token, at best. The US wasn't a superpower at the time and actually allowed our troops to be placed under British command.
This is the slippery slope one finds himself located on when trying to blame ethnic groups for crimes committed by people following an ideology. I've said it on here a million times (so it seems) - the Soviets (Commies, Bolsheviks, whatever) committed crimes against all ethnic groups and unfortunately they were assisted in this by members of virtually all major ethnic groups. Had they not been, they would not have been able to be so "successful."
When this sort of ethnic-based hate rhetoric gets out of hand you wind up with the situation we have currently in that region of the world. Yeltsin and other post-Communist leaders of the various republics failed their collective peoples by not joining together and condemning Soviet crimes as being perpetuated on the local populaces. There is not a country today that was a part of the Soviet Union that doesn't have some accounting to do - be it Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus, or the various Stans, Kavkaz countries, and the Baltics.
It sounds to me like you are engaging in the same ethnic demonization and scapegoating you decry and a bit of revanchist Russian revisionism too by blaming Russia's neighbors for their own civil war.
Speaking of "Ad na zemle", have you guys seen this video yet -
http://www.logicandsanity.com/archives/2006/09/_march_7th_1996.html
Have sound on. Understanding russian helps, but if you don't, see it anyway. The most dramatic piece of war footage I've ever seen.
TGJ, I did put the blame on the Georgian and Ukrainian communists - as it was clearly implied in my statements or do I have to be exactly 100% concrete/no inferences/ with you for you to understand? And before you go saying I'm engaging in demonization and scape-goating, go back and read what I wrote and take note I included Russia on the list along side Georgia, Ukraine, etc.
Doesn't surprise me one bit SOBR was doing the actual fighting. The Russian Army is broken and nowhere's near being fixed. It's been 10 years since that video was shot and, in my opinion, the Russian Army has gotten worse. It'll continue to get worse until they fire the fat generals, do away with conscription, and train a professional NCO corps. That Putin and Ivanov haven't been able to get this even started shows just how weak they are and how much perceived power the "military establishment" still has.
Yep, that video is from the first Chechen war. I think doing away with conscription should be the first step. Also, I have a documentary on Russian Orthodox churches in Chechnya. Its called "Mirotvorzi" ("Peacekeppers"). If you want, I can send it over.
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