Posted on 09/05/2006 6:53:40 PM PDT by ruptured duck
WASHINGTON - Rocket-propelled grenades, or RPGs, are a favorite weapon of insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan. They are cheap, easy to use and deadly.
RPGs have killed nearly 40 Americans in Afghanistan and more than 130 in Iraq, including 21-year-old Pvt. Dennis Miller.
“They were in Ramadi, and his tank was hit with a rocket-propelled grenade,” says Miller’s mother, Kathy. “Little Denny never knew what hit him.”
Sixteen months ago, commanders in Iraq began asking the Pentagon for a new system to counter RPGs and other anti-tank weapons.
Last year, a special Pentagon unit thought it found a solution in Israel — a high-tech system that shoots RPGs out of the sky. But in a five-month exclusive investigation, NBC News has learned from Pentagon sources that that help for U.S. troops is now in serious jeopardy.
The system is called “Trophy,” and it is designed to fit on top of tanks and other armored vehicles like the Stryker now in use in Iraq.
Trophy works by scanning all directions and automatically detecting when an RPG is launched. The system then fires an interceptor — traveling hundreds of miles a minute — that destroys the RPG safely away from the vehicle.
The Israeli military, which recently lost a number of tanks and troops to RPGs, is rushing to deploy the system.
Trophy is the brainchild of Rafael, Israel’s Armament Development Authority, which has conducted more than 400 tests and found that the system has “well above [a] 90 percent” probability of killing RPGs and even more sophisticated anti-tank weapons, according to reserve Col. Didi Ben Yoash, who helped develop the system.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I can't imagine the price tag?
They say $300K-$400K
Seems like a difficult problem to overcome..technically that is.
It sounds like a great way to tear up dismounted infantry around the armored vehicle.
Was he 6 years old when she signed him up?
I would think that a shotgun might be usefull in exploding the RPG before it hits.
Lots of little Dennys were shreded when they rode Shermans to war.
The first I've heard of this was tonight on NBC Nightly News (it was pretty much the same info as in the MSNBC article). The test that was shown seemed very controlled, with only the vehicle mounted with the Trophy system and a single RPG fired at it while it drove along in a straight line. Nothing else around in the test area.
Not really, as long as you can deal with the really short response time. At least not for a single incoming round. Multiple, it gets dicier fast.
Essentially the same system concept, a ballistic missile defense system, is impossible according to the demoncrats.
I think the big difference between the Israeli system available now, and the Raytheon system which might in place, is the ability to avoid hitting US dismounts around the vehicle.
Raytheon will promise to keep US dismounts safe from our anti=RPG weapons. The Israeli system makes no such claim, to my knowledge. This would lead us to "Spam in the can" tactics, rather than the dismount heavy approach that is used in the Stryker vehicles now.
Yup. the rolling Ronson wasn't very survivable.
Ah, its in the article. Page 2.
Trophies — which cost $300,000-$400,000 each
The article says the Israeli system works 98 percent of the time and is available now rather cheap...The Army balked because they have a $70 million contract with Raytheon to develop a system. This is a no brainer...buy the Israeli system now.
I've heard of carpet bombing! It's relatively inexpensive in cost and American lives. It is extremely effective, just axe Dresden or Tokyo.
Q. How do you win the hearts and minds of brainwashed slaves of satanallah?
A. High explosives and lots of them
You reacted to that to, huh?
The problem with Trophy is that it is basically a Claymore hooked up to a hair trigger. If we want our tanks to go through urban areas randomly blowing the Hell out of whatever moves, Trophy is a great system. If we're trying to do the job, however, Trophy would be a disaster.
MSNBC= More Snide Nasty Bush Comments
I bet it struggles with false positives in an urban environment. Firing on auto exhausts might be looked down upon.
"Raytheon will promise to keep US dismounts safe from our anti=RPG weapons. The Israeli system makes no such claim, to my knowledge. This would lead us to "Spam in the can" tactics, rather than the dismount heavy approach that is used in the Stryker vehicles now."
Raytheon always promises alot, like being on time and on budget, but we know how that goes! Where are you getting the information about the dismount problem?
WRONG!!!
The BIG difference between the Israeli System and Raytheon has ALMOST CERTAINLY (as the article points so so succinctly if you or anyone will take the time to read it) has more to do with "politics" and $$$$$ than the effectiveness of the system--which apparently has "proven" to be 98-99% successful.
That and the fact that this one is ready to go now (WHICH ALL HERE ARE CONVENIENTLY IGNORING AS I WOULD IMAGINE THAT NONE OF YOU HAVE BEEN PLACED IN THE SITUATION OF OUR BRAVE TROOPS OR I WOULD NOT BE READING THIS CRAP)and Raytheon's WONT BE READY FOR ANOTHER FIVE YEARS.
This is an absolute travesty and bullsh*t.
BINGO - GIVE THE MAN A SEEEGAHHH!
P.S. It is not just our nearby troops who get torn up...
The current projects combine GPS systems with active, low power, high bandwidth transmitters so you know where people are all the time.
The Raytheon system will doubtless integrate with that to prevent many friendly fire incidents. The Israeli system, though good for what it does, may not do that.
One wonders if Raytheon has a hard on about Raphael, or vice versa. It would be easier to take a working system and latch an inhibiter into it than to build a new system.
Of course with a US company you get US ITAR restrictions. Amazingly restrictive, even unconstitutionally so.
You win the prize. The only way to win a war is to make the other side beg for it to be over. War is the last stage of diplomacy, not a part of it. When we have to wage war, then let loose the dogs of war and don't stop them until the deed is done.
Buying the MSNBC line hook/line/sinker, are we, Newbie?
Typical NBC News BullSheet....of course NBC was never in a rush to spend the "Peace Dividend" and leave soldiers unprotected...
The best countermeasure against RPGs is the gunners in a patrol watching their sector and pouring automatic weapons fire at the jihadi preparing to fire the RPG.
ABSOLUTELY!!
I'm just a little put out by what I'm reading from so many "EXPERTS" here about this subject.
NO, I'm NOT an expert, but I did spend 18 months in Nam, which does give me a little insight on being on the receiving end of enemy fire and IF this works and IF it can save ONE life NOW as opposed to worrying that MAYBE (AND THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF, READING THIS CRAP) "INJURING SOMEONE INOCENTLY WHEN DISCHARGING THIS WEAPON" and WAITING ANOTHER FIVE YEAR?
Jesus H. Christ, what is a matter with all of you??????
Until you can show us the specs of both systems, it's your opinion that politics and BullSheet...
So, Mr. Experience, how does this wonder of technology work?
I submit there may be more than one difference.
The military procurement system is imperfect, but they are driven by requirements. The requirements come from field commanders. The procurement bureaucrats put out contracts to seek systems that meet these requirements.
There is some give and take with contractors too, but not very much. The procurement bureaucrats are, if anything, suspicious of contractors, for all the right reasons.
I have only been working military procurement things since 1983, with 4 years in the Infantry before that.
Reasonable people may disagree about how much weight should be given to different requirements, vs. other requirements. I give you my strongest assurance that "industrial policy" has very little to do with the decisions made by me, or decisions made by anyone I worked with.
It happens. There is a former AF officer in jail just now who was influenced by Boeing. The penalties for that kind of stuff are appropriately stiff, and the paper trail is so volumnious that you can't hide decisions made for the wrong reasons.
Don't be so hard on yourself, RD...
Theres a good read about the system here...Tough to tell if the friendly fire concerns are valid or not.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002361.html
How Bout' The GRUNTS Be Allowed To Do Their Job??
Kill The S-O-B With The RPG-AT Weapon!
This Is More "Safe-War" Krappola.
No sense giving it to people who can't operate it or maintain it.
Sorry, that I haven't been around since the inception or whatever requisite time required, which would "qualify" me as being able to express my opinion, unlike, no doubt an ol timer and erudite expert such as yourself.
On the flip side, I'll be 63 next month and didn't just fall off the turnip truck, "BOY."
I spent 8 years on active duty including 18 months in Nam and have seen up close and personal how the military can operate.
Thus, even if this story was written in Pravda, it "smells" like something the military would do and I'm allowed to vent and express my displeasure.
And if you don't like it, well, take a pill and chill!!!!
I am reminded of Wellington, when asked if Napoleon would be afraid of the British soldiers (recruited from the slums):
" I can't speak for Napoleon, but they frighten me!"
Some 20 years ago there was a movement to add Blazer reactive armor systems to US vehicles. A tank commander, knowing that his head would be outside the hatch next to the high explosive bricks attacked to his tank, differed. We got the Abrams with Chobham Armor instead and M-60s upgraded with Blazer armor. and the Bradley instead of M=113s with the same.
Now the Abrams is widely known as a great system. The Bradley, though it is rather large, is a great mech inf system. Neither is what we would design today, but both have served pretty well for a long time.
Trust the soldiers who make these decisions. I have found them to be of good quality.
Something doesn't smell right about this article.
98% effective and the military doesn't want it?
I grew up on a farm, so I'm familiar with bullshit.
This smells like bullshit.
I have been following the Land Warrior program for many years. One of my West Point classmates was the manager for that program. He also got roped into doing the buy for the berets when that happened. Got a lot of flak for that too.
There was a lot of concern about saving the one or two guy inside an Abrams tank that might be hurt by an RPG, and losing the infantry squad outside it. The guys inside are already protected by 11 inches of impervium. The guys outside are protected by ranger tabs, helmets, and flak jackets. Since there are 9 dismounts per Stryker or Bradley (fewer with scouts versions) you can see where doing the wrong thing can hurt a lot really quickly.
The decsionmakers are risk adverse, and know about the phrase "penny wise and pound foolish".
Video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0snvhQmi78
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