Feds Lower Boom on Alternative Money (Liberty Dollar users prosecuted)

USA Today (AOL) ^ | 09/15/2006 | Barbara Hagenbaugh

[BradJ]

USA Today articles can be link only

[BradJ]

How dare us peasants not use their fiat coins

[samadams2000]

Psstt!!!!...Start hoarding silver bullion coins. I will explain later...I got to go...

[Always Right]

Yeah, the cuts into the fed monopoly and is a cool way to avoid taxes.

[babygene]

So you can't barter with these little metal disks???

[Vermonter]

P.T. Barnham, please pick up the withe courtesy phone.

[Sir Gawain]

I guess bartering is also illegal.

[Rodney King]

It's silly that people can't voluntarily use alternative forms of currency. That being said, passing the currency off as US currency is certainly a problem.

[Toddsterpatriot]

How do these allow you to avoid taxes?

[mkjessup]

Hey, until I see Kim Jong Il frog marched into a U.S. District Court for counterfeiting our currency, I can't get too excited about the Feds raising a ruckus about "Liberty Dollars".

[ichabod1]

They should still pay the tax on the transaction, right? I mean, if it's nothing but a scheme to defraud the government, why not do it without the flashy coinage and stay on the down low?

[RegulatorCountry]

I guess subway tokens are now suspect. /sarc

[redgolum]

You know what is funny? These must of started to show up all over for the Fed to get so worked up about it.

[Politicalities]

Read the story. The problem isn't bartering with the coins. The problem is that the coins bear a striking resemblance to coins produced by the United States Mint, and people are giving them to store clerks who are accepting them unaware. That's fraud.

[GeorgiaDawg32]

does the coin say "one dollar" on it anywhere?? if it does, I could see where someone would think its real and use it..of course, as I recall, some clerk somewhere took a $200 bill with a picture of W on it..

if it's knowingly used, that's fraud..unknowingly?? I don't know..

[RegulatorCountry]

They're claiming that it is illegal for any entity other than the U. S. mint to produce coins. Frankly, I don't see their case, other than to claim that this so closely resembles official currency as to make unwitting acceptance likely. If both buyer and seller are aware, though, I don't see the illegality.

[Jim Noble]

Article I, s.10 "No State shall ...make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts".

What's the problem here?

[Politicalities]

They're claiming that it is illegal for any entity other than the U. S. mint to produce coins.

Who's claiming that? I read the story and I didn't see that claim anywhere.

does the coin say "one dollar" on it anywhere??

The silver coin says "Twenty Dollars", actually. The gold one says $500.

[fireforeffect]

A friend of mine once paid $35 for a pistol once.
1 double eagle, an eagle, and 5 cartwheels.
$20 gold coin, $10 gold coin and 5 silver dollars.

Face value.

[Old Student]

"I guess bartering is also illegal."

Worse. It's taxed.

[GeorgiaDawg32]

agreed..I saw a show once on discovery or a and e or one of those where a guy hand drew $100 bills (they were amazing) and would go into shops, tell the counter person he drew it, then barter it for goods with the understanding they owner framed the bill, put it up and showed people for publicity..as I recall, he was making out pretty well..

BUT, he was letting them know up front what the deal was..

[Toddsterpatriot]

No State shall .

Evansville, Ind.-based National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code, otherwise known as NORFED

Which state is NORFED?

[ladyinred]

I have never even heard of them. Aren't they a form of counterfeit money?

[Rodney King]

1 double eagle, an eagle, and 5 cartwheels.

Not a bad deal, but could he have done 5 summersaults instead of the cartwheels?

[CPOSharky]

What about them there "Ithaca bucks"?

[RegulatorCountry]

From the article in question:

"'The United States Mint is the only entity that can produce coins,' Bailey says."

[gitmo]

But the story talks about stores that knowingly accept the Liberty $ because they like them. So in those cases, it's simply a trade.

[MarkL]

I guess bartering is also illegal.

It's fine, as long as both parties agree to it. Have you ever accepted a Canadian coin unknowingly? Have you tried to "cash it in" at a bank? I tried to deposit a bunch of change once many years ago, and the bank refused to accept a number of the Canadian nickles, since they are NOT legal tender in the US.

In this case, if one person knowingly passes money that is not authorized by the US government to one who doesn't realize that it's not covered by the full faith and credit of the US government, that person IS committing counterfeiting.

Mark

[M-cubed]

What's the problem here?<<
Right here!! >>>gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts".

[traviskicks]

Wow! Very intersting stuff!

[traviskicks]

Evansville, Ind.-based National Organization for the Repeal of the Federal Reserve Act and the Internal Revenue Code, otherwise known as NORFED, has been making the Liberty Dollar coins for eight years and claims $20 million is in circulation. The group says the money, unlike official U.S. cash, has a hedge against inflation because it is made almost entirely of silver and is backed by stocks of silver and gold in a vault in Idaho.
----

heh heh.... I like these guys already. :)

[ChildOfThe60s]

No, it's legal. But both parties are supposed to report the transaction and pay taxes on it. Which kind of defeats the principle of barter.

If you drive a car, I’ll tax the street;
If you try to sit, I’ll tax your seat;
If you get too cold, I’ll tax the heat;
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.

[freepatriot32]

Libertarian ping.To be added or removed from my ping list freepmail me or post a message here

[freepatriot32]

so are they going to crack down on walt disney for printing disney dollars that can be used in the disney theme parks or how about every arcade in every mall that gives you "tokens " to play video games with when you insert dollar bills into thier change machine?

[Drago]

http://www.libertydollar.org/

[elkfersupper]

The definition of money is "an accepted medium of exchange"

The trouble arises when the accepted medium constitutes barter and cannot be tracked and taxed at every exchange.

This annoys the fedguv and local taxing authorities to no end.

[sanchmo]

Agree on both your points.

[taxed2death]

"I guess bartering is also illegal."

Since you can determine the "value" of services / materials to be bartered, the IRS does in fact request that you report all bartered services / materials so they can properly be taxed.

[mugs99]

Those using the Liberty Dollar know how the government cheats the people with fiat currency. That's why the government must stop the use of the Liberty Dollar.

"Welcome to the Liberty Dollar: Remember when gas was only 25-cents a gallon? You could take a dollar down to the gas station and buy four gallons for a buck! At that time our dollar was backed by REAL money, real silver. Guess what? That same amount of silver still buys four gallons of gas! That just shows that real money like gold and silver holds its value and it is the green paper money that is now worth a lot less."

[Mikey]

"...bear a striking resemblance to coins produced by the United States Mint, and people are giving them to store clerks who are accepting them unaware."

First off, just because something resembles something else doesn't constitute fraud. What about all those look alike Rolex watchs that are floating around. They make no claim to being actual Rolexs, yet some putz might think they are. Just because someone is too stupid to realize something isn't what they believe it to be, doesn't mean its fraud.

If I give a store clerk monopoly money for a purchase and he / she accepts it as payment, does that mean I committed fraud?

[Mikey]

Exactly. In actuality the mint is committing fraud by minting and printing up a non-gold / silver based currency and calling it constitutional money.

Article I, section 10 of the Constitution for the United states;

"No state shall ...make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts".

"Although the Federal reserve banks cannot, of course, draw in any of their notes that are outstanding with the public, they can technically retire such notes by depositing with the Federal reserve agent gold or lawful money to the full amount of the outstanding notes. Tis amounts to retiring the notes, as the currency has been decreased by the withdrawal of an equal amount of money and all liability for the notes has been wiped out by the deposit of money."

(Page 145 of the cumulative loose-leaf business encyclopedia, vol IV, 1927)



"Federal Reserve Notes Are Not Dollars."

Russell Munk, Assistant General Counsel, Dept. of the Treasury, 1977.

[RGSpincich]

I have untold riches in rare coins all bearing the picture of the President's friend.

[Mikey]

Oh man, your a bozillionaire.

[Thunder90]

It was at a DQ somewhere. The guy got $197 in change.

[ovrtaxt]

This is BS. Banks used to issue their own currency all the time, before the Federal Reserve Bank took the whole thing over. These guys are simply doing the same thing, and issuing a much better looking product.

In any case, the money we normally use isn’t US Government money anyway. It’s Federal Reserve money, which is not a government bank.