Posted on 09/17/2006 8:03:05 AM PDT by Principled
A Battlefield for Tax Reform
There are a few significant battlefields in the war for tax reform. One of them is Free Republic. What makes the Free Republic battlefield significant is that the debate is at the cutting edge. The debate on Free Republic is the most current and most knowledgeable. It is a year ahead of other significant battlefields (radio talk shows, political town-hall meetings, conversations among neighbors and coworkers.)
The trend on Free Republic with respect to tax reform is going to show up in the real world. Free Republic is a tiny segment of the world, albeit a more educated, more politically motivated, more affluent segment than most. Perhaps those are a few of the reasons that Free Republic predicts what will happen in the real world – the world of radio, newspapers, network television, and most importantly - elections.
The choices are
Keep the status quo and continue with our graduated income tax
Eliminate the income tax and implement a flat income tax (although this option has negligible support)
Eliminate the income tax and implement a national sales tax
There are no other options. We are going to have taxes. The only choice is deciding the best way to have them.
Whichever choice you prefer, one thing is clear. The opponents of tax reform on Free Republic will stop at nothing to protect the status quo. Here’s what’s happening on Free Republic (remember it’s a predictor of what will happen in the real world.)
Opponents of reform randomly select perceived problems, however insignificant, and say that’s the reason this reform cannot work. For example, attackers of HR 25 (the “Fair Tax”) have alternately said the rate is too high and then the rate is too low. Whatever seems to get traction is what they stick with. Is it no wonder the perception is that these anti-reformers are not being honest with the reason(s) they oppose the reform. This is why so many question the motives of the anti-reformers. What are they hiding?
The anti-reformers try to make the reform threads so unpleasant that people choose not to participate in them (what does this predict about the real world?)
An anti-reformer may be taking advantage of the positions he he was entrusted with by the site (modertor). By taking sides in threads, berating and belittling pro-nrst posters, by deleting threads, by locking threads, and by moving threads from news/ACTIVISM to “Bloggers and Personal” and to “Smokey Backroom”, the mod(s) in question are taking away from the greatest site on the internet. Sometimes, threads are moved to bloggers and then moved to SBR or vica versa.
Pro-nrst posters are suspended for things that don’t make sense. Anti nrst posters are not suspended for things that should require it - comes to mind the picture of a dog copulating with a pig with the comment “screw you pigdog”… “I found a picture of your parents”. Noteworthy is that the poster of said graphic and phrase were not suspended but rather the recipient of it was suspended for complaining about it.
What does this predict about the real world?
Suffice to say that the debate about tax reform is won by the reformers. The proof is that when educated about the three reform options, the general public chooses the nrst over 70% of the time.
The only question is whether the dishonesty of the anti-reformers will slow the progress of reform in the real world. This is NOT to say that all anti reformers are dishonest - but it is the dishonest ones who are tainting the others.
The good thing about the debate is that the nrst is the most thoroughly investigated alternative - each and every point is debated in complete detail. Problems have been identified and some changes have been made. That's a good thing. And as debate continues, the level of knowledge of any lurkers continues. As I said, I predict over 70% will choose the nrst.
Can y'all do your pinger thing?
I swear I checked Vanity to post this! Could you move it over there?
IMO, one of the biggest problems with taxes is that most Americans are too dumbed down to understand them. Most Americans don't understand that government, by definition, have no money. The only money that government has is in the pockets of individual citizens.
Confiscatory and predatory taxing practices, such as those that exist in America today, simply exemplify the absurdity of the American tax system.
As long as the tax system maintains the status quo, the divide between the "haves" (Republicans who work and earn money) and the "have nots" (liberals who only want what Republicans have - except for the working part) will only grow deeper. As Congress continues buying base by shifting more and more of the tax burden onto the shoulders of those of us who work, the debate over tax reform grows only more rankorous and more vociferous. As long as we continue to allow Congress to expand the margins of those who don't pay taxes (yet share the "tax cuts") and shift more of that burden to us, this debate has no peaceful end in sight. Remember, this nation was founded on the basis of "No taxation without representation".
Without tax reform, the American past will become its prologue.
There are only three choices in bill form. If there is a bill, or even a group working on your idea, i don't know of them.
IIRC it was tarrifs and excises that the founders preferred.
AMEN! (as i head to church!)
One of the advantages of the nrst is that it requires ALL individuals to pay the same marginal rate.
This unites taxpayers instead of dividing them.
The anti-reformers try to make the reform threads so unpleasant that people choose not to participate in them (what does this predict about the real world?)I'm not sure I remember ever encountering an "anti-reformer" on Free Republic when it comes to taxes. Virtually everyone I've encounter would love to see tax reform.
ping
The anti-reformers try to make the reform threads so unpleasant that people choose not to participate in them (what does this predict about the real world?)Please. The most unpleasant person, by far, on these FairTax threads is pigdog and he's a FairTax supporter. Maybe you should be concerned with your own house before you start worrying about others.
Perhaps he'd like to tell us how superior his Nightmare Tax (one of the many flat tax forms) is to the FairTax point by point?
Perhaps telling us how any flat tax eliminates payroll taxes and reporting all financial (and other) affairs to Uncle - if it does?? Then we can move on to other comparisons.
And, see ... it starts right in again ... the anti-reform trademark!What starts up?
Perhaps he'd like to tell us how superior his Nightmare Tax (one of the many flat tax forms) is to the FairTax point by point?This is a shining example of what FairTaxers consider "debate." There is no such thing as the "Nightmare Tax." This was invented by pigdog in a lame - and failed - attempt to ridicule me.
Bump
If it's not broken, don't fix it.
For a hundred years congress has been tinkering with the tax code. The income tax is perpetually broken. Instead of getting fixed it has become increasingly more broken. President Regan accomplish a major fix of a broken income tax that took seventy years to decline to such a broken state. It has taken just twenty years to undo Regan's fix and break the income tax far worse than before his fix.
It appears the only people capable of permanently fixing the way taxes are collected is the people, not politicians and bureaucrats. The FairTax grassroots movement is by The People for The People.
The good thing about the debate is that the nrst is the most thoroughly investigated alternative - each and every point is debated in complete detail.
Problems have been identified and some changes have been made.
That's a good thing. And as debate continues, the level of knowledge of any lurkers continues.
Your Nightmare;
-- the most "anti-tax reform" people I've seen on FR are the FairTaxers.
They have refused to let any serious reform be discussed and have dogmatically promoted their FairTax plan which is an absolute nonstarter in Washington.
They consume so much of the debate and are so vehement in their support that they ensure no real tax reform can be accomplished.
There you have it sports fans; -- one side calls for debate "-- in complete detail --".
The other side claims: "-- They consume so much of the debate and are so vehement in their support --", that they ensure no real debate or reform.
I'll go with principles..
FairTax plan which is an absolute nonstarter in Washington.
Next to the income tax which has the most support in DC, the FairTax has the most support with 60 members of congress having signed on as sponsors or co-sponsors. No other tax reform bill comes remotely close to that many sponsors. It think one bill for a flat tax has three or four sponsors.
The forefront of debate in taxreform is indeed on Free Republic.
If anyone would like to be added to this ping list let me know.
John Linder in the House(HR25) & Saxby Chambliss Senate(S25) offer a comprehensive bill to kill all federal income, SS/Medicare payroll, and gift/estate taxes outright replacing them with with a national retail sales tax administered by the states.
H.R.25,S.25
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.Refer for additional information:
Geez may be busy (or out climbing mountains)
Yep sure was enjoying a nice crisp fall morning, think I dosome more the same this afternoon.
The pinger has been fired and, and I'm headed back out into my hills to enjoy abit o the wildlife ;O)
Good points. I never realized how similar liberals and the anti reformers are in terms of tactics. Naysayers who never divulge a plan of their own all the while complaining about the lack of debate. Makes one wonder what the true agenda is.
I have to take exception to one of your points.
There are plenty of Republican who even call themselves conservatives who love the government gravy train and think that the 'compasssion' of big government is a good thing. It's not just the self identified liberals and democrats anymore who want big government.
What you said was closer to being accurate just 6 years ago but many Republicans now buy into the compassion of big government made popular by GWB and glombed onto by Rick Santorum.
Have you now dropped support of whatever your "flat tax" might have been which you could never disclose???
Nice spin. Did you come up with that as you were circling the drain?
Are you saying HR.25 has been modified?
Oh, do tell us where ...
There you have it sports fans; -- one side calls for debate "-- in complete detail --".One side calls for debate, but never lets real debate happen. Funny, isn't it.
Next to the income tax which has the most support in DC, the FairTax has the most support with 60 members of congress having signed on as sponsors or co-sponsors. No other tax reform bill comes remotely close to that many sponsors. It think one bill for a flat tax has three or four sponsors.And that's gotten you what, exactly? Nothing. Hell, when then Senate Finance Committee held it "kick off" for tax reform, the FairTax was only mentioned once and that was to say it was a "nonstarter." What wonderful support y'all have.
If anyone want to know why there's no real debate about tax reform on FR, just check out this thread. If you don't agree with the FairTaxers, your motives are immediately brought into question. Nice way to debate, huh?
Fair Tax ping!
You're the one who claimed to support some (unknown) version of a flat tax ...I never claimed to support any version of any bill. So what? If tax reform is to happen, the bill hasn't been written. You couldn't accept that so you had to try your usual ridicule.
The other side claims: "-- They consume so much of the debate and are so vehement in their support --", that they ensure no real debate or reform.
One side calls for debate, but never lets real debate happen. Funny, isn't it.
Some one here is stopping you from "real debate"? -- Now that's a funny concept.
There are people on FR that insist that the mods stop their opponents "from posting to or about" them; -- has anyone on the fairtax side done that to you?
There are people on FR that insist that the mods stop their opponents "from posting to or about" them; -- has anyone on the fairtax side done that to you?No. But what does that have to do with anything? You don't think they asked people not to post to them because of their great debating skills, do you?
The good thing about the debate is that the nrst is the most thoroughly investigated alternative - each and every point is debated in complete detail.
Problems have been identified and some changes have been made.
That's a good thing. And as debate continues, the level of knowledge of any lurkers continues.
Your Nightmare replied:
-- the most "anti-tax reform" people I've seen on FR are the FairTaxers.
They have refused to let any serious reform be discussed and have dogmatically promoted their FairTax plan which is an absolute nonstarter in Washington.
They consume so much of the debate and are so vehement in their support that they ensure no real tax reform can be accomplished.
Your Nightmare writes again, in defense of his own words quoted just above:
If anyone want to know why there's no real debate about tax reform on FR, just check out this thread. If you don't agree with the FairTaxers, your motives are immediately brought into question. Nice way to debate, huh?
I submit that your initial post above tells the tale about debating 'motives'..
You very actions like that are why the term "Nightmare Tax" came into being.
The other side claims: "-- They consume so much of the debate and are so vehement in their support --", that they ensure no real debate or reform.
One side calls for debate, but never lets real debate happen. Funny, isn't it.
Some one here is stopping you from "real debate"? -- Now that's a funny concept.
There are people on FR that insist that the mods stop their opponents "from posting to or about" them; -- has anyone on the fairtax side done that to you?
No. But what does that have to do with anything?
You 'boldly' raised that exact issue just above.
You don't think they asked people not to post to them because of their great debating skills, do you?
Those that can't rationally defend their positions often do exactly that. -- They erroneously claim their opposition is making a personal attack, and demand that the mods protect them.. -- 'Funny' tactic, isn't it?
Sure kills "real debate".
They erroneously claim their opposition is making a personal attack, and demand that the mods protect them..And it's up to the Mods to determine if there was really a personal attack and, if so, warn or ban that person. Know anyone who's been warned or banned?
In fact, one of your clan (tying to support his claims to get me banned) even claimed I showed him to be a wooly sheep frolicking in a green field in Georgia. Oh, the horror!!! And this was the guy posting a clearly obscene post to me (which of course isn't obscene on his side of the fence)!
I guess that's easier than debating the FairTax. eh???
Well said indeed!
Probably so. I seem to recall you making a concerted effort to get me banned several threads ago by continually citing supposed "grievances" and "violations".Nobody need to make an effort to get you banned. You do fine all by yourself.
You'll see him try the same stunt on this thread soon no doubt. He's merely a disruptor troll when he starts this M.O.
AMEN!
Are we going to have a tax system worthy of free people or will we continue to endure the communist inspired mess we currently have? THAT is the question.
Is he really unpleasant or is it just that YOU see him that way because he makes arguments that do not comport with YOUR views and YOU are unable to refute them?
Sure kills "real debate".
And it's up to the Mods to determine if there was really a personal attack.
Yep, - which puts them on the 'spot', and whichever way they decide, it creates more bad feelings and flame wars on FR.
All because some here can't learn to defend their political positions with common sense & rational debate.
According to whom? Last time I looked the FairTax plan had more support in Washington than all other tax reform measures combined!
Ah... depends on which mod doesn't it?
From the posted vanity...
An anti-reformer may be taking advantage of the positions he he was entrusted with by the site (modertor). By taking sides in threads, berating and belittling pro-nrst posters,...
There is now a concerted effort to get me banned. I am in receipt of some private FReepmails showing it.
There is now a concerted effort to get me banned. I am in receipt of some private FReepmails showing it.Ooooo, another conspiracy! Do tell!
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