Posted on 09/18/2006 3:25:10 PM PDT by Valin
I did not accuse JPII of cowardice, I suggested that he was not as brave as Bendedict in confronting Islam and I suggest that JPII was guilty of "compromise" rather than cowardice. JPII seemed to be more interested in mollifying the enemies of Christ than confronting them.
I'm not speaking theologically here, but politically. (Sometimes you can't separate them).
And my point was that "bravery" should not be considered as the only possible explanation for their differing approaches. When John Paul II ascended to the papacy, Khomeini had not yet assumed leadership of Iran and militant Islam was still well over the horizon. Communism was the clear and present danger in the form of the Soviet Union and I think JPII's performance in that sphere was fairly impressive.
Pursuit of a given strategy can also be attributable to an expectation that the strategy will yield a beneficial outcome. It does not necessarily have to be due to a lack of bravery or a convenient expediency (or "compromise").
Dearest P-Marlowe,
. . . . and if I were to write to you (not that I would do any such thing) that you were going to hell unless you became a Catholic, you would receive the admonition with all meekness?
I second the response of others (which you evade in your replies) that the silence of Protestant leaders in support of Benedict is deafening. A number of Muslim leadrers have, belatedly, come to his defense. Protestants are silent, with a few exceptions.
In any case, when your courageous Calvinist brethren finally send their "go to hell" message to the Muslim world, please forward a copy to me. It fits your theology; it doesn't even fit ours because we (confusedly, to your eyes, I'm sure) believe one has to first truly know the truth and reject it before God damns to hell, and a lot Muslims (and a lot of Calvinists) are invincibly ignorant of the truth. But your theology damns them all, so you should be the one to tell them. Of course, the trouble is that by your theology, even though you present the Gospel to them and they truly hear it, God just might have predestined them to hell anyway so they're stuck. Now I'd rather not be in the same room when you preach that theology to Muslims.
I understand that is what you believe. It is not, however consistent with what Jesus taught:
For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:17-18 KJV)
Of course, the trouble is that by your theology, even though you present the Gospel to them and they truly hear it, God just might have predestined them to hell anyway so they're stuck.
While I am not a Calvinist, the fact is that everyone who is going to be saved has been predestinated to salvation.
(Romans 8:29 KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Romans 8:30 KJV) Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
(Ephesians 1:5 KJV) Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
(Ephesians 1:11 KJV) In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Now I'd rather not be in the same room when you preach that theology to Muslims.
Are you willing to be in the same room with someone who is preaching the gospel of Christ to Muslims? Are you willling to repeat the words of Jesus in John Chapter 3 to Muslims? Or is it better to leave them in darkness so that they can never know the truth and thus never be condemned?
If, in fact, one cannot be condemned unless they have truly known the truth, then why did Jesus die? Why do we preach the cross? Why do we tell people they must believe in Christ? Why don't we just stop teaching the truth so that everyone will be saved?
Well, no "First Things" today. I guess I'll just have to possess my soul in patience and write Thai Coup Haiku until tomorrow ...
If you look carefully at what I wrote, I said I'd rather not be in the same room with a Muslim (or anyone else) when your Gospel of predestination to damnation is preached. Your Gospel's no Good News to me; I prefer the one once for all delivered to the saints. It has no predestination to damnation but a free human response to the grace of God.
If you look carefully at what I wrote, I said I'm not a Calvinist. That being said, Calvinism does not preach "predestination to damnation" but only predestination to salvation. Everyone else is "condemned already".
Bob Dylan said it best.
I was blinded by the devil,
Born already ruined,
Stone-cold dead
As I stepped out of the womb.
By His grace I have been touched,
By His word I have been healed,
By His hand I've been delivered,
By His spirit I've been sealed.
I've been saved
By the blood of the lamb...
Now, does the Gospel (which states that those who do not believe on Jesus Christ are "condemned already") apply to Muslims?
Or are they given a free pass to heaven because they never "fully know the truth"?
What "Gospel" would you preach to Muslims?
It's obvious that Dionysius doesn't understand Calvin. I am a calvinist in the tradition of Jacob Arminius. I believe we are saved by grace through faith and lost by resistance toward the Holy Spirit of God.
Have you been to their website? Remember it's firstthings.com. Even though they're nonprofit, somehow they ended up with a .com tag.
Rest assured I read your post carefully and know that you don't like the name Calvinist. Your doctrine of predestination to salvation combined with denial of freedom involves predestination to damnation by default. It's a neat trick because it gives you deniability. Sort of like the other guy's semantic tricks about being an Arminian Calvinist.
I've read Calvin. And I won't read or reply to any more posts from you. We've been over this ground before and it leads nowhere.
When you get around to it, how about getting your fellow Reformed folks (or whatever label you prefer to Calvinist) to back Benedict? It really won't hurt you very much--it'll be over before you know it. You know, it was pretty precious of you to jump on this thread to bitch about Catholics not preaching a good enough Gospel to the Muslims when the issue was not about which brand of Christianity the Muslims despise but about their despising of all Christians. For once you could have stood with us instead of backbiting your fellow Christians.
On second thought, just forget about enlisting any of your fellow Protestants to back Benedict. Enjoy your splendly pure isolation. And stay off threads like this if all you have to say is Protestant Catholic-baiting
I think someone once said something like,
"When they came for Benedict I didn't say anything because I wasn't a Catholic. When they came for the Orthodox, I didn't say anything because I wasn't Orthodox. And then, I assure you, P-M, they will come for you. And it won't help to protest that you aren't one of those apostate followers of the Whore of Babylon. To them you are the same as us."
Well, maybe he didn't say quite all of that. But something like it.
I understand Calvin very well. Good night.
It's not the same! If I've paid for a print edition, I want the print edition!
My neighbor just came over with a couple of magazines that ended up in their box, but it was "Runner's World" and "NRA InSights." Oh, well.
Most sweet Jesus, Redeemer of the human race, look down upon us humbly prostrate before Your altar. We are Yours, and Yours we wish to be; but, to be more surely united with You, behold each one of us freely consecrates himself today to Your Most Sacred Heart. Many indeed have never known You; many too, despising Your precepts, have rejected You. Have mercy on them all, most merciful Jesus, and draw them to Your Sacred Heart.
You are King, O Lord, not only of the faithful who have never forsaken You, but also of the prodigal children who have abandoned You; grant that they may quickly return to their Father's house lest they die of wretchedness and hunger.
You are King of those who are deceived by erroneous opinions, or whom discord keeps aloof; call them back to the harbor of truth and unity of faith, so that soon there may be but one flock and one Shepherd.
You are King of all those who are still involved in the darkness of idolatry or of Islamism; refuse not to draw them all into the light and kingdom of God. Turn Your eyes of mercy toward the children of that race, once Your chosen people. Of old they called down upon themselves the Blood of the Savior; may it now descend upon them a laver of redemption and of life.
Grant, O Lord, to Your Church assurance of freedom and immunity from harm; give peace and order to all nations, and make the earth resound from pole to pole with one cry: Praise to the Divine Heart that wrought our salvation; to It be glory and Honor forever. Amen.
If you have followed my posts over the years you would know that I am one of the chief critics of Calvinism at Free Republic. Nevertheless I will defend their theology when it is misrepresented and I believe that you have misrepresented it. There is no question but that you have misrepresented my theology. I will attribute that to ignorance rather than spite.
Your doctrine of predestination to salvation combined with denial of freedom involves predestination to damnation by default. It's a neat trick because it gives you deniability. Sort of like the other guy's semantic tricks about being an Arminian Calvinist.
Neither I nor the other guy deny the freedom of the will. But neither do we deny the ultimate sovereignty of God in all things, including our predestination to salvation.
I've read Calvin. And I won't read or reply to any more posts from you. We've been over this ground before and it leads nowhere.
I don't recall having this discussion with you before. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?
When you get around to it, how about getting your fellow Reformed folks (or whatever label you prefer to Calvinist) to back Benedict?
Did you miss the posts where I did, in fact, back Benedict and acknowledge his uncompromising courage in facing down the enemies of Christ? Did you skip that post?
You know, it was pretty precious of you to jump on this thread to bitch about Catholics not preaching a good enough Gospel to the Muslims when the issue was not about which brand of Christianity the Muslims despise but about their despising of all Christians.
I was criticizing the soft pedal theological approach of Neuhaus towards Islam and not the speech of Benedict.
And stay off threads like this if all you have to say is Protestant Catholic-baiting
Maybe you should stay off the threads yourself if you can't stand a seeing a little constructive criticism of your theologians.
"Be solicitous to make your call and election permanent" and "work out your salvation with fear and trembling."
I like Bob Dylan too but would not elevate him that high. Issac Watts and Wesley brothers are better.
What do you think about "Shelter from the Storm"? Was it written just before his conversion. Favorite Christian Dylan tune "Every Grain Of Sand"
Dylan is a poet more than a musician. But he puts his poetry to music in a way that few can emulate. He has always done it without compromise and he still manages to get airplay.
This, of course contradicts the old Peter Paul and Mary song:
I dig Rock and Roll music
I could really get it on in that scene.
I think I could say somethin'
If you know what I mean
But if I really say it,
The radio won't play it
Unless I lay it
between the lines
(sigh) I wish what PPM said were still true today.
The radio plays just about anything. But, it's true it will get even worse.
Wow. I just sent my cousin the lyrics to "Saved" this morning.
Lovely coincidence.
I agree.
Now if only he'd remove the anathemas of Trent on Protestants.
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