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Top Ten Civil Liberties Abuses of the Income Tax
http://www.cato.org/pubs/tbb/tbb-0204-2.html ^

Posted on 09/20/2006 10:32:34 AM PDT by tpaine

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We are long overdue to enact new laws to increase taxpayer protections and outlaw & repeal the income tax, --- with a fair and consumption-based tax.

Many conservatives on FR oppose such a tax.. Why?

1 posted on 09/20/2006 10:32:35 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine

I think property taxes need to be addressed first.


2 posted on 09/20/2006 10:35:25 AM PDT by southlake_hoosier (.... One Nation, Under God.......)
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To: southlake_hoosier
Property taxes are assessed by the states, and each one is governed by their respective legislatures.

What the United States needs is another Tea Party!!!

3 posted on 09/20/2006 10:39:26 AM PDT by Frohickey
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To: tpaine

Well obviously the kongress kritters are dragging their feet on it. I propose a tax revolt. Refuse to pay their damned taxes, and see how fast that they listen to the people then.


4 posted on 09/20/2006 10:39:27 AM PDT by Concho (IRS--Americas real terrorist organization.)
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To: Frohickey
Property taxes are assessed by the states, and each one is governed by their respective legislatures.

And much more dangerous then the federal imcome tax.

5 posted on 09/20/2006 10:41:39 AM PDT by southlake_hoosier (.... One Nation, Under God.......)
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To: tpaine
Exactly why "we will never again be a FREE country so long as we have the income tax and the IRS"!

http://www.fairtax.org

6 posted on 09/20/2006 10:42:01 AM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: Concho

Lots of people refusing to pay taxes would probably just result in lots of people being shot and/or imprisoned and a different large group of people cheering about people getting "what they deserved" for trying to "get out of their duty and obligation as a citizen".


7 posted on 09/20/2006 10:46:42 AM PDT by MichiganConservative (Government IS the problem.)
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To: MichiganConservative

Just a few people doing that would be like you say, but if half the people in this country strapped on some balls and said no to taxes, then the numbers would be so great that the IRS could not function. They could not pay bills, they could not pay their own wages. Congress would then be faced with having to act responsibly. That is our Tea Party.


8 posted on 09/20/2006 10:49:31 AM PDT by Concho (IRS--Americas real terrorist organization.)
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To: tpaine
The requirement to file tax returns sworn to under penalty of perjury operates to invalidate the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination.

This was the one clinker in the list.

Fifth Amendment protections apply only to criminal cases. Almost all tax cases are civil cases (failure to pay a debt has always been considered a tort as opposed to a crime). One cannot be held to criminal court for an accurately filled-out tax form, even if the monies in question are the proceeds of illegal activities. (We actually had a case against a fence thrown out when I was a cop because we only his tax returns as evidence. D'OH!)

I have seen tax returns filled out by drug dealers, fences, and bookies. Some of them are actually pretty funny when it comes to "type of employment."

Drug dealer's employment: "Pharmaceutical Industry"

Fence: "Retail Goods."

Bookie: "Sports Forecasting & Consulting."

9 posted on 09/20/2006 10:49:31 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: tpaine; ancient_geezer; pigdog
ping time

Thanks tp.

10 posted on 09/20/2006 10:54:41 AM PDT by groanup (fairtax.org)
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To: southlake_hoosier

Enact a 'Prop.13' type tax in your State.


11 posted on 09/20/2006 10:55:23 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: Concho

I agree with your tag line. Too bad it would be considered "extremist" by a large number of people in this country. I also like "IRS - America's gestapo".


12 posted on 09/20/2006 10:55:58 AM PDT by MichiganConservative (Government IS the problem.)
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To: tpaine

Do away with tax in your state is a better thought.


13 posted on 09/20/2006 11:00:29 AM PDT by Concho (IRS--Americas real terrorist organization.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
10. Forced Self-Incrimination. The requirement to file tax returns sworn to under penalty of perjury operates to invalidate the Fifth Amendment protection against self-incrimination. Citizens face a legal dilemma. On the one hand, refusing to file a return would expose a citizen to prosecution for failure to file. On the other hand, disclosing information sought in tax returns constitutes a waiver of Fifth Amendment protections. The IRS can and does release that information to federal, state, and local agencies for both tax and non-tax law enforcement purposes.

We can pretend that enforcement agencies will not use tax info, but in effect: -- disclosing information sought in tax returns constitutes self incrimination.

14 posted on 09/20/2006 11:07:39 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
A Taxreform ping for you all.

If anyone would like to be added to this ping list let me know.

 

"The simplest system of taxation yet adopted is that of levying on the land and the laborer. But it would be better to levy the same sums on the produce of that labor when collected in the barn of the farmer; because then if through the badness of the year he made little, he would pay little. It would be better yet to levy it only on the surplus of this produce above his own wants. It would be better, too, to levy it, not in his hands, but in those of the purchaser; because though the farmer would in fact pay it, as the purchaser must deduct it from the original price of his produce yet the farmer would not be sensible that he paid it... What a comfort to the farmer to be allowed to supply his own wants before he should be liable to pay anything, and then to pay only out of his surplus."
Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1784. Papers 7:558

 

John Linder in the House(HR25) & Saxby Chambliss Senate(S25) offer a comprehensive bill to kill all federal income, SS/Medicare payroll, and gift/estate taxes outright replacing them with with a national retail sales tax administered by the states.

 

H.R.25,S.25
A bill to promote freedom, fairness, and economic opportunity by repealing the income tax and other taxes, abolishing the Internal Revenue Service, and enacting a national retail sales tax to be administered primarily by the States.

Refer for additional information:


15 posted on 09/20/2006 11:08:39 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: Taxman; pigdog; Principled; EternalVigilance; rwrcpa1; phil_will1; kevkrom; n-tres-ted; Zon; ...

A ping to yah all.


16 posted on 09/20/2006 11:09:22 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: tpaine

That's a great list.

Wonderful, informative post.


17 posted on 09/20/2006 11:17:52 AM PDT by EternalVigilance
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To: tpaine
"It will be of little avail to the people that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so volumionous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man who knows that the law is today, can guess what it will be tomorrow. Law is defined to be a rule of action; but how can that be a rule which is lettle known and less fixed?"
--James Madison, Federalist #62

And we have not come very far in the last 230 years have we?

18 posted on 09/20/2006 11:27:42 AM PDT by mc5cents
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: tpaine

The income tax is income redistribution and confiscation of private property.
It is communism-lite.


20 posted on 09/20/2006 11:30:23 AM PDT by Leftism is Mentally Deranged
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To: TonyRo76

The IRS and the income tax itself are two of the most unjust, most detestable things about our government.

Not just out government ;O)

When there is an income tax, the just man will pay more and the unjust less on the same amount of income.
Plato (427 BC - 347 BC), The Republic

21 posted on 09/20/2006 11:35:18 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: tpaine
The IRS can and does release that information to federal, state, and local agencies for both tax and non-tax law enforcement purposes.

That was not my experience, and it has not been the experience of anyone I know in law enforcement.

22 posted on 09/20/2006 11:42:30 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged
It is communism-lite.

Nothing "lite" about it my FRiend! It IS communism!

Read all about it in The Manifesto of the Communist Party

23 posted on 09/20/2006 11:49:06 AM PDT by Bigun (IRS sucks @getridof it.com)
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To: Concho

but if half the people in this country strapped on some balls and said no to taxes, then the numbers would be so great that the IRS could not function.

Half the people in this country already pay zilch in income tax already. With more added everytime they tinker.

Bush touts relief as tax day looms

Another 3.9 million Americans will have their income tax liability completely eliminated, officials said.

That's 3.9 million Americans more added to the spending constituency of 70% of the public clamoring for more from government, figuring someone else foots the bill.

That just assures the system is perpetuated, with half the electorate making a natural spending constituency on backs of the other half.

Right now the bottom 50% perceive little to no "Individual Income Tax" burden,(in many cases even a handout) and 70% of the voting public clamor for more from government looking for the top 50% of income earners/producers to foot the bill. That perception continues to grow ever stronger by eliminating even more participants from the Federal Individual Income Tax rolls as proposed in the tax reduction proposals through changes in personal exemption limits and other mechanisms such as the EITC.

For where the income tax is more concerned with the Intent of the individual income tax as a vehicle for political and social control as opposed to revenue collection. The Individual Income tax is maintained to establish and hold every person in the country perpetual legal jeopardy, a legal jeopardy to be called on at whim for control of the individual or organization that may step beyond politically accepted bounds. A situation that must end with the repeal of the income tax from the statutes, and the prohibition of its use by Constitutional amendment that future generations will not face the same manner of manipulation and interference in their lives.

24 posted on 09/20/2006 11:56:00 AM PDT by ancient_geezer (Don't reform it, Replace it.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
The IRS can and does release that information to federal, state, and local agencies for both tax and non-tax law enforcement purposes.

That was not my experience, and it has not been the experience of anyone I know in law enforcement.

Take it up with the Cato Institute, and the author.. They could probably cite many experiences to the contrary.

I doubt they publish articles containing unsupported allegations.

25 posted on 09/20/2006 11:56:58 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine

Ping for later


26 posted on 09/20/2006 11:57:51 AM PDT by PubliusMM (Just doin' my best to stay free and secure. God Bless our military personnel.)
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To: Everybody

Thanks for the bumps, bump.


27 posted on 09/20/2006 12:31:29 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine
And an additional note on the Tax Court. It's something the IRS frequently tries to force you into as a ploy. Why??? The "entry fee" for Tax Court (a TC qualified tax lawyer) is pretty steep in many parts of the country. Where I live that minimum for starters is $25,000 and even more for some well-reputed barristers.

In many cases the IRS figures you rather pay your, say $50,000 (or whatever) to them that to gamble on paying the legal fees additionally as well.

Works for them.

28 posted on 09/20/2006 12:52:06 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: Concho
But why not do it legally and constitutionally by the means already available to us - getting Congress to pass a truly beneficial bill like the FairTax?

It would be easier, cheaper, and cause massively LESS upheaval than some sort of Tax Protest (that's what the whole Tax Protester "industry" hopes for). that's not needed.

We merely need more taxpayers to stop sitting on their hands, looking at the floor, and saying "... it'll never happen ..." and to let their elected representatives know in no uncertain terms that they expect those reps to support and pass the FairTax.

29 posted on 09/20/2006 12:58:16 PM PDT by pigdog
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To: southlake_hoosier

Try to stay focused. This is an article and a thread about the FEDERAL income tax.

Yes, property taxes are a problem, but they need to be addressed at the state and local level. If you want to have a discussion, please start your own thread and many of will join in and discuss it, but this isn't thread to discuss property taxes any more than it would be to discuss any other issue, not matter its importance.

Thank you.


30 posted on 09/20/2006 1:00:32 PM PDT by Badray (While defending the land called America, we must also be sure to preserve the Idea called America.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
I have seen tax returns filled out by drug dealers, fences, and bookies. Some of them are actually pretty funny when it comes to "type of employment."

prostitute: "chicken farmer"
31 posted on 09/20/2006 1:03:01 PM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: absolootezer0
prostitute: "chicken farmer"

No, that one was "social services."

32 posted on 09/20/2006 1:07:04 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse ( ~()):~)>)
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To: tpaine
The broad-based income tax necessitates a large invasion of financial privacy that a low-rate consumption-based tax could avoid

This, and filling the pockets of politicians and their cronies, is what taxes are all about. Control of the masses.

33 posted on 09/20/2006 1:13:32 PM PDT by subterfuge (Do your part to educate a Democrat and keep on FReeping!!)
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To: mc5cents

We have traveled quite a bit. From tax tyranny to tax freedom and back and back and back. What the Founders took offence to was a 3% tax on a good. Now we think 40% of our income is reasonable.

We traveled much, but as you said, we didn't go far. We went backwards.


34 posted on 09/20/2006 1:16:31 PM PDT by Badray (While defending the land called America, we must also be sure to preserve the Idea called America.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

you haven't heard chicken farmer before? she claims raised over 1000 c@(#$ last year.


35 posted on 09/20/2006 1:32:11 PM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: Badray; absolootezer0; BeHoldAPaleHorse
absolootezer0
prostitute: "chicken farmer"


No, that one was "social services."
32 posted on 09/20/2006 1:07:04 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Badray wrote:

Try to stay focused. If you want to have a discussion,

[on chicken farming prostitutes]

please start your own thread and many of us will join in and discuss it ---


[Actually at flame war thread on prostitution was pulled just the other day]
36 posted on 09/20/2006 2:03:13 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: subterfuge
We are long overdue to enact new laws to increase taxpayer protections and outlaw & repeal the income tax, --- with a fair and consumption-based tax.

"-- The broad-based income tax necessitates a large invasion of financial privacy that a low-rate consumption-based tax could avoid --"

This, and filling the pockets of politicians and their cronies, is what taxes are all about. Control of the masses.

Yep, -- makes you wonder why many 'conservatives' on FR oppose such a tax..

37 posted on 09/20/2006 3:05:14 PM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine

I don't think it's that hard to figure out why. Some people on here on FR will oppose ANYTHING that goes against whatever happens to be the official gubmint policy no matter how harmful it is.


38 posted on 09/20/2006 5:02:06 PM PDT by frankiep (I respect Islamofacists more than the American left - at least they ADMIT that they hate the US.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

What infuriates me is that they sell the list of people who have been notified of a change in their taxes to some outside marketers. That should be against the law.

Every few years, 6-8 or so, I used to get a notice that the IRS found some discrepancy in something like a stock price differential or some minerals income. Its was never much - maybe $50 or less.

They would send me a notice and within 1 day, I would receive 5-6 letters or even post cards from businesses that said in big letters "In Trouble with the IRS? Call So-and-So."

That's really fun when you have the neighbors pick up your mail if you're out of town or you just have your mail lying about on the kitchen table. I called the IRS about it, but they denied that anybody ever did that.

The only time I got those things was right after - and once, right before - an IRS notice. Who else would've given out that info? Grrrr.


39 posted on 09/21/2006 1:17:03 AM PDT by Rte66
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To: tpaine
makes you wonder why many 'conservatives' on FR oppose such a tax..

True. They must be 'social conservatives' or some such.

40 posted on 09/21/2006 5:05:36 AM PDT by subterfuge (Do your part to educate a Democrat and keep on FReeping!!)
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To: tpaine

follow the path of posts, this was related to taxes (things people put under "type of employment" to give a legal sounding name to what they do.)


41 posted on 09/21/2006 5:30:33 AM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: tpaine

Two points. First, their discussion IS following the topic at hand, you just can't quite grasp hat, obviously. Second, once you post a thread, it's like a balloon in the wind. You no longer have control over where it goes. If a thread gets hijacked, there is nothing you can do but whine and look whiney.


42 posted on 09/21/2006 5:50:34 AM PDT by Toby06 (Hydrogen is not a fuel source. Hydrogen is an energy storage method, like a battery.)
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To: absolootezer0

Yee haw!

43 posted on 09/21/2006 5:52:17 AM PDT by Toby06 (Hydrogen is not a fuel source. Hydrogen is an energy storage method, like a battery.)
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To: Toby06; pissant

"It's just a little bitty pissant country place, nothin' much to see ... no drinkin' allowed, we get a nice quiet crowd ... just plain as it can be ..."


44 posted on 09/21/2006 6:02:46 AM PDT by Rte66
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To: Rte66

45 posted on 09/21/2006 6:04:47 AM PDT by Toby06 (Hydrogen is not a fuel source. Hydrogen is an energy storage method, like a battery.)
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To: tpaine

This is great stuff, tpaine. Thanks for the post.


46 posted on 09/21/2006 6:08:43 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: absolootezer0; Toby06
Two points. First, their discussion IS following the topic at hand, you just can't quite grasp hat, obviously.

Ah yes. - Obviously.
- Funny you can't see the irony I see in IRS supporters bumping a thread that shows the abuses of that 'Service'.

Second, once you post a thread, it's like a balloon in the wind. You no longer have control over where it goes. If a thread gets hijacked, there is nothing you can do but whine and look whiney.

What, me whine? I like wine with the cheesy comments you people make. Feel free to continue.. -- You're making my initial point: Many conservatives on FR oppose tax reform..
Why is that?

47 posted on 09/21/2006 6:50:20 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine

I'm all for tax reform. Wherein did i say I wasn't? And how am i making your initial point


48 posted on 09/21/2006 6:53:06 AM PDT by Toby06 (Hydrogen is not a fuel source. Hydrogen is an energy storage method, like a battery.)
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To: frankiep
I don't think it's that hard to figure out why. Some people on here on FR will oppose ANYTHING that goes against whatever happens to be the official gubmint policy no matter how harmful it is.

Yep, they confuse political conservatism with 'conserving' the past, even if that past policy [income taxation] has shown itself to be an idiotic exercise in abusing & restraining individual liberty.

49 posted on 09/21/2006 7:08:30 AM PDT by tpaine
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To: tpaine

where did you see that i'm against tax reform? i'm for just about anything that'll shrink goverment. with either flat or fair tax we can totally eliminate the IRS.
or transfer them to border patrol to process immigration applications, and go after those that haven't filed. :)


50 posted on 09/21/2006 7:15:24 AM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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