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Archers, shooters face fee hikes ( Closing public lands to the Public )
Rocky Mountain News ^ | September 15, 2006 | Dick Foster

Posted on 09/25/2006 10:51:14 AM PDT by george76

A small band of archers has been shooting bows and arrows for 37 years on a range in the Pike National Forest north of Deckers, paying the U.S. Forest Service about $450 a year for a permit.

This year it will all end because the Forest Service presented the Columbine Bowmen with a bill for $23,000 for the one-year permit, said club president Tom Younger.

The same fate faces the 180 or so members of the Buffalo Creek Gun Club, who shoot targets in the Pike forest near Bailey. The club's annual permit fee of $150 over the past 40 years suddenly soared to $20,000.

"It's their goal to do that, to run us off the land," Younger said of the Forest Service. "I'm letting it go. I can't fight it anymore."

Forest Service regional lease officer Diane Hitchings said she knows of "only three or four private clubs" that have been allowed to use national forest land in the five-state region that includes Colorado.

Such "special uses" date back decades to a more relaxed view of the forest. Now, private use of the public's land is discouraged.

"We look at it far more stringently than we used to," said Pike National Forest District Ranger Randy Hickenbottom.

"After the Hayman Fire, they put a gate up and told us to privatize our club and make it for members only," said Younger.

The Forest Service wanted the land closed to better protect it from fire and damage by unsupervised public use, he said.

"Then this year, they changed the policy and wanted us to open it up," Younger said.

He said that now, "anybody can walk in and shoot our range," but the Forest Service is still raising its fee.

(Excerpt) Read more at rockymountainnews.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Government
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; corruption; domain; eminent; eminentdomain; fire; forest; forestservice; g80; hayman; haymanfire; national; nationalforest; scotus; tax; taxes; usfs
Now the USFS will get no money for their budgets.

" Nothing is better than something ? "

.

1 posted on 09/25/2006 10:51:15 AM PDT by george76
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To: AnAmericanMother

"It's their goal to do that, to run us off the land," Younger said of the Forest Service.

"I'm letting it go. I can't fight it anymore."


2 posted on 09/25/2006 10:52:39 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: girlangler

" Forest Service regional lease officer Diane Hitchings said she knows of "only three or four private clubs" that have been allowed to use national forest land in the five-state region that includes Colorado. "


3 posted on 09/25/2006 10:53:36 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
I used to shoot at the Buffalo Creek Gun Club when I lived in the Denver area. It has a 600 yard range, offering highpower rifle clinics that introduced many (including myself) to highpower rifle shooting, and serving as home club to many nationally ranked shooters, and yet only 45 minutes from a population of 2.5 million people.

It is a pity that anti-gun bureaucrats at the USFS are going to close down this unique resource.

4 posted on 09/25/2006 10:59:42 AM PDT by white trash redneck (Everything I needed to know about Islam I learned on 9-11-01.)
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To: george76

Who or what is the public and who or what owns the public lands?


5 posted on 09/25/2006 11:01:18 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: george76

So now it looks like the Forest Service will get nothing. They used to get $150, now they want $20,000. How can the Forest Service just decide to charge a group an arbitrary amount? The Forest Service run rampant over some areas. Nothing worse than bueraucrats in charge.


6 posted on 09/25/2006 11:03:33 AM PDT by caver (Yes, I did crawl out of a hole in the ground.)
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To: caver

Doesn't a 13,000% increase in fees sound reasonable?

[sarc]


7 posted on 09/25/2006 11:09:52 AM PDT by Disturbin
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To: caver
Their reason is to minimize the fire danger by keeping people off of the lands. However, with the higher rainfall we have been getting (in NM at least), this means that more brush will be growing in the forest. Then, in a few years (or next year), when it drys out again, an errant lightning strike will start the fires again. Who will the service blame then if no single human uses the land, and the only ones onto it are the forest service themselves? Will they blame themselves for mis-management of the forest, for not clearing the under brush, for putting out small fires, allowing the forest to overgrow until it is a tinder box ready to explode? No, they will just knee jerk and blame some non-existiant person throwing a cig, or not putting out their campfire, even though no one is allowed on the land.
8 posted on 09/25/2006 11:10:47 AM PDT by Laz711 (The Barbarians are in Rome.........CLOSE THE BORDERS!!!)
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To: george76
Its not the laws you have to fear its the Regulations.

laws are passed by Legislators. You can vote them out

Regulations are put out by bureaucratic assholes who are answerable to no one. You can fight a law but a regulation is just about impossible.
9 posted on 09/25/2006 11:15:48 AM PDT by sgtbono2002 (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: Disturbin
Many years ago they pulled this stunt with Land Mobile Radio site users (tower owners). Only with the commercial operators, the government demanded a % of profits.

A tax is a tax is a tax.
10 posted on 09/25/2006 11:18:54 AM PDT by ASOC (The phrase "What if" or "If only" are for children.)
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To: george76

More and more the public is being kicked out of public lands. It's a travesty.

Time to contact your congressman. Don't give up the fight george76, we need you.


11 posted on 09/25/2006 11:26:40 AM PDT by girlangler (Fish Fear Me)
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To: george76
The Forest Service wanted the land closed to better protect it from fire and damage by unsupervised public use, he said.

The Hayman fire was started by a Federal Forest Service employee !!!!

12 posted on 09/25/2006 11:30:26 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: george76

This is all about strangling the gun culture. The anti's figure if the gun ranges are closed, the gun culture will go away. I'd say they are wrong.


13 posted on 09/25/2006 11:31:18 AM PDT by TexasRepublic (Afghan protest - "Death to Dog Washers!")
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To: george76
I wonder how many environmental organizations (NGOs) and extended governmental units such as state universities have areas under their private, exclusive, control on public land.
14 posted on 09/25/2006 11:32:14 AM PDT by theBuckwheat
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To: TexasRepublic

This is all about the meaning of the word public. What does it mean? Evidently what we were told in school is incomplete or not at all correct.


15 posted on 09/25/2006 11:32:37 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: white trash redneck

I smell a rat...Sierra Club .


16 posted on 09/25/2006 11:42:40 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: RightWhale

This used to be the "Land of Many Uses."

Now it is the land of no use.


17 posted on 09/25/2006 11:43:59 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Laz711

Good point about the fire danger. It sounds like they used the fire danger as a reason to kick the shooters out. They probably took better care of the land than the uninformed public.


18 posted on 09/25/2006 11:44:33 AM PDT by caver (Yes, I did crawl out of a hole in the ground.)
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To: Disturbin

"Doesn't a 13,000% increase in fees sound reasonable?"


Only if you are the feds!


19 posted on 09/25/2006 11:46:26 AM PDT by caver (Yes, I did crawl out of a hole in the ground.)
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To: caver
If it is politically correct as determined by some unelected bureaucrat...free ?

In Steamboat Springs area, and other areas, the hate-America druggies trashed that forest...never got permits.

Here, a legal historical practice is shut down.
20 posted on 09/25/2006 11:47:20 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
He said that now, "anybody can walk in and shoot our range," but the Forest Service is still raising its fee.

So stop calling yourselves a club, stop paying a cent for the lease, and just walk in and use it anyway.

IMHO, the people own the land, not the Forest Service. It is not the role of the Forest service, or the Federal Government for that matter, to be using public property for financial gain.

Then go out and find a timber company that will give your club a hunting lease for a lot less. You can shoot there, and hunt there too.

Or get a loan a buy land. Yous should be able to get at least 30 acres in Colorado for $20,000, and then you own it. You don't have to pay another 20 Grand next year.

21 posted on 09/25/2006 11:49:02 AM PDT by Kenton
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To: sgtbono2002; traviskicks

Yup.

" Regulations are put out by bureaucratic assholes who are answerable to no one.

You can fight a law but a regulation is just about impossible..."


22 posted on 09/25/2006 11:49:09 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: girlangler

Thanks.

We are still kicking.


23 posted on 09/25/2006 11:50:04 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: XeniaSt

Exactly.

" The Hayman fire was started by a Federal Forest Service employee !!!! "


24 posted on 09/25/2006 11:51:01 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: TexasRepublic; Carry_Okie; DaveLoneRanger; fanfan
The liberals are trying to harass the NRA and us.
25 posted on 09/25/2006 11:52:52 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: caver

The same with family ranchers with grazing permits.

They take the best care of the land as they plan to leave the land to their kids.


26 posted on 09/25/2006 11:55:02 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
Good morning.
"Now it is the land of no use."

One of the goals of the crazy envirofascists has always been to return much of the US to a state of wilderness, with the majority of the citizens living in a few high density cities.

Of course, they still want people of their ilk to be able to use the land as long as they leave no sign of their presence.

The clinton posse loaded the agencies responsible for caring for our land with like minds and W didn't get rid of them.

Michael Frazier
27 posted on 09/25/2006 12:00:10 PM PDT by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: george76
"The Forest Service wanted the land closed to better protect it from fire and damage by unsupervised public use, he said."

That way they can allow the dead biomass to accumulate until, when it finally does catch on fire, it burns so hot and so long it destroys the soil and dormant seeds so that nothing worthwhle will grow for decades.

Forest fires are a natural part of the ecology.

Completely stifle forest fires and you are not preserving the environment, you are changing it to something else, and you don't have any idea what that might be.

28 posted on 09/25/2006 12:02:46 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: brazzaville
Another reason for this wilderness...road less political game is money.

Ted Turner has been buying large pieces of land that were formerly large family ranches. He likes to buy the former working ranch cheap. If he can get the bureaucrats to " vacate " the grazing allotments, then the family rancher may not be able to pay back his bank loans...then goes broke.

Ted is happy buying on the cheap.

A financial bonus is when Ted can get the surrounding public lands " vacated " further...no hunting, no fishing, no logging, no mining, no roads, no bikes, no horses...unless they cross his estate.

He then can charge a big access fee which only the Hollywood crowd can pay.
29 posted on 09/25/2006 12:08:59 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Was it zoned? Was it Federal land all along?


30 posted on 09/25/2006 12:09:21 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: RightWhale; white trash redneck

white trash redneck may know this better than me.

" Was it zoned? "

My understanding is that it is federal lands which is not zoned by the local county.

Thus the local Forest Serivce guy might follow the wishes of the Sierra Club...

Hopefully this can and will be appealed successfully to Washington.



31 posted on 09/25/2006 12:15:16 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

If it's anything like Alaska you won't be able to take a hike with your dog.


32 posted on 09/25/2006 12:18:08 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: RightWhale

Amazingly, there are places that you can not legally hike by yourself.

No dog, no horses, no bikes, no people.

One forest service plan tried to write in a rule that we could only camp one person per square mile. When pressed by me, they backed off some. My point : what does a family do ? Put a different kid in a different tent ...one per mile ! What about the parents...two tents a mile apart !

That really was in the draft travel management plan.


33 posted on 09/25/2006 12:29:05 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

They push their logic to the limits and then can't answer simple questions. Seen that a lot. It's like they let summer students write their regulations.


34 posted on 09/25/2006 12:32:15 PM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Kenton

That is, until the Democrats take power again in both the Congress and the Presidency. Then they will use Eminant Domain to throw you off your land and will use gun control laws to take your guns.


35 posted on 09/25/2006 5:31:03 PM PDT by Thunder90
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To: george76

That fits the view of some envirowacks who believe that "humanity is a virus infecting the Earth Mother Goddess Gaia." Even to the point of prohibiting hiking, camping, canoeing. People are not supposed to venture outside of their assigned "village".


36 posted on 09/25/2006 5:44:38 PM PDT by Fred Hayek (Liberalism is a mental disorder)
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To: Fred Hayek

Sad but true.


37 posted on 09/25/2006 6:46:26 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
It is one of the odd things about the various Government Bureaucrats in regards to things "Enviormental".

They seem to believe they have a God given right to demand taxpayers pay for their own personal private Nature reserves.

If we cannot use them at all, why should we pay for them?
38 posted on 09/25/2006 7:34:10 PM PDT by MNJohnnie (Say Leftists. How many Nazis did killing Nazis in WW2 create? or Samurai? or Fascists?)
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To: MNJohnnie

Some of the eco-nuts hope that these newly created wilderness areas are given to the UN to manage.


39 posted on 09/25/2006 7:37:59 PM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Thunder90
That is, until the Democrats take power again in both the Congress and the Presidency. Then they will use Eminant Domain to throw you off your land and will use gun control laws to take your guns.

YIKES! What scary picture!

Not that I don't believe that this could happen, but I remember when Clinton got elected and we were all operating in this mindset. And after all the kerfluffle settled, it turned out that the Internet stories about black helicopters descending on small towns and seizing their guns and all that other paranoia weren't true, and even if the evil Clinton-Reno cabal wanted to, we weren't going to let them.

And they knew that. So the whole gun control issue became a losing proposition for the Dems, and to a large degree they have backed off.

So all I'm saying is it's a bit early to panic. You should go over to DU and see some of the wild conspiracy crap floating around over there, except that they claim that BUSH is building the detention camps, where we once thought Clinton was.

I take back what I said about "Not that I don't believe that this could happen". I DON'T think this can happen. I don't think they do either. Because they know that we won't let them.

Have faith in America and Americans. And keep your guns cleaned and oiled.

40 posted on 09/26/2006 5:04:44 AM PDT by Kenton
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To: george76
It was located in National Forest, and so I doubt it was affected by any local zoning ordinances.

After I saw this article I corresponded with one of my old friends in the Denver area who is seriously into shooting sports, and he says that the BCRC can remain open provided it is open to the public (and no, I don't know exactly how this is consistent with a safe shooting environment).

41 posted on 09/26/2006 5:39:18 AM PDT by white trash redneck (Everything I needed to know about Islam I learned on 9-11-01.)
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To: white trash redneck

The BCRC is staying open ? Good news.

What about the high annual fees ? Is the forest service staying with the big dollars ?


42 posted on 09/26/2006 6:35:07 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: Joe Brower

Right to Keep and Bear Arms


43 posted on 09/26/2006 6:40:07 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

All it took here was one ding dong shooting tracers (subsequently starting a small fire) to close down the place where generations of us had gone to shoot.


44 posted on 09/26/2006 6:42:31 AM PDT by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, ATF and DEA)
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To: RedStateRocker

Thanks.

What about the high annual fees ? Is the forest service staying with the big dollars ?


45 posted on 09/26/2006 7:27:05 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
Here is the text of my friend's reply:

not to worry. BCGC will be there next year. they got a concessionaire permit, and will be building a new range for public use.

Lease terms have changed, but there price will not. The article in the paper was correct, but now its going public so no problems.

So, if my friend knows more than the reporter from the Rocky Mountain News (and that's not a stretch), the fee paid by BCGC to USFS will remain the same.

46 posted on 09/26/2006 8:11:53 AM PDT by white trash redneck (Everything I needed to know about Islam I learned on 9-11-01.)
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To: george76
Interesting City Council meeting last night. Really. That's where the citizens can speak for five minutes on any issue before the council or on any issue they happen to think worthy of comment.

It is an eminent domain issue this time, related generally to public/private property issues such as the ones on this thread.

Citizen comments were related to a proposed city taking of a house and lot for a public project that is one of the quasi-public quasi-private developments that are supposed to benefit the community. Nobody mentioned Kelo since that decision would support the City, but the testimony covered so many aspects and fundamental questions about eminent domain that it would have made a Supreme Court Justice dizzy.

No one got down to asking about whether a corporation is actually a private person even though it is called private since it does not have publicly traded stock yet the entire Native population of the region is stockholders. The development is supposed to aid the tourism industry, yet not everybody cares if another tourist ever rides by in a tourbus here in Disneyland North.

47 posted on 09/26/2006 8:37:30 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: white trash redneck

Thanks.

Keeping it affordable is important.

That the reporter got it wrong is not a surprise.


48 posted on 09/26/2006 8:42:42 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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