Posted on 09/30/2006 10:56:20 AM PDT by wagglebee
Voice them. We're among friends (mostly).
I didn't read carefully enough, and your first post gave me the impression that you were raising doubts of documented post-abortion phenomenon, using your anecdotal experiences with "several women that have had more than one abortion and have had children afterwards." That raised my curiosity. Then, your questions, "Would you shun these women? Have them burned at the stake?" lead me to believe that you were of the view that you had the stereotype of "Christians as Inquisitors." Instead of asking you if you held this view, I jumped. I was wrong.
To clarify, however, what is your stance on these issues?
Maybe you are in over your head on this subject.
BTW... Jesus cleared his stance once and for all and it was not as mushy as you would like it to be obviously.
Give me time (got to reinstall my office program that I forgot after the last crash), I will dig up the scriptures... and you decide just how nice most Christians are comparable.
Thanks; I needed a reality check. I appreciate the info.
You don't execute someone because of a crime you think they'll commit. No baby is guilty of any crime that deserves the death penalty, ever.
Since I can no longer find a link... you get the condensed version here... (guess that is what my donations to FR are for, forgive me Jimrob for the bandwidth useage>
Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14)
Christ’s apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.
Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10)
Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.
Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.
One reason heathens do not listen to Christians. There is only so much niceness a person can stand. The ""Brother, bless you" attitude does not always garner the ear of the unbeliever. The Biblical approach to communicating with the world includes not only compassion, but harshness as well.
The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).When the Ad Council airs anti-drug public service announcements (PSAs) that mock "pot heads on Jeopardy" who cannot even remember their names, they are not motivated out of hatred, but out of love. Ridicule can and does save lives. "Why do you think they call it dope?" Ad Council spots run on Christian stations and get no criticism for being unloving or unkind. Why is it that Christians never rise up against the effort to stigmatize drug users? If a pagan brings peer pressure against "pot heads," that is accepted. Let a believer, however, use mockery to stigmatize fornication or sodomy, and the Church rises in condemnation. God, however, does not condemn those who "rebuke the wicked" (see Prov. 24:25).
When a harsh word is needed God uses a harsh word. This is true in the Old and New Testaments. Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Mat. 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18; Lev. 18:16; 20:21) with "Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife" (Luke 3:19). Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, ‘I cast out demons’…" (Luke 13:32).
The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).
Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."
In the King James Version, the seductive women among the people of God are worse than "whores" (Ezek. 16:33). That crude term appears in the Bible dozens of times. The men who use those women are "whoremongers" (1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), which is the most raw term in the English language to describe promiscuous men. God describes other sinners in terms of filthy excrement (Isa. 64:6) and even worse (2 Ki. 18:27; Isa. 36:12). Sinners truly are repulsive, regardless of how men may try to sanitize them. The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). And that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates." (Ps 11:5). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hate[s] wickedness (Ps. 45:7).
There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans… a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Ho 9:13). As Moses wrote of God, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30).
Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points the way to God.
God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.
Paul also fell short of today’s compassionate Christianity when he wrote that the government should minister terror, wrath and vengeance against the evildoer and that the sword should be used against them (Rom. 13:3-4). The Apostle also erred by today’s standards calling unbelievers fools (Rom. 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Gal. 3:1, 3). Incidentally, Jesus also called men fools (Mat. 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Mat. 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.
Christians enjoy quoting, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." However many shudder at the rest of the verse. For thus says the Lord, "Every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn" (Isa. 54:17). Jesus taught that human beings will condemn the wicked. "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (Mat. 12:41). Jesus said, "For God so loved the world." Then two verses later He added, "but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). By today’s Christian standard, no unbeliever would know that he is condemned, because most believers will not communicate this vital truth. John 3:16 is nice. John 3:18 is not nice.
Jesus was rude. He was asked a question that goes to the very heart of His ministry. "Who gave you this authority?" (Mat. 21:23). Within the answer to that question lies eternal life, yet Christ was not inclined to answer them. Rather, He asked them a question, which they failed to answer (Mat. 21:24-27). Therefore He said to them that neither would He answer their question (Mat. 21:27; see also Luke 22:67 and John 12:34-36).
When people misunderstood Jesus He often made no effort to explain Himself. Quite to the contrary, He often purposely let His hearers misconstrue His words (John 2:18-22). Jesus let people walk away in unbelief without running after them. The Bible does not record Him as saying, "I’m sorry, did you misunderstand me?" He is the "stumbling block," and if men wanted to stumble, He let them. For those who want to hang themselves, He invites them (Rev. 22:11). Jesus made the rope available. He is that rope (Rom. 9:33).
Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Men and women are different and they communicate differently. Women are softer and nicer than men, and thank God that they are. However, men are not supposed to be women. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers. Strength, confidence, conviction and tough love appeal to those who are searching. Thus Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker. Today we are way nicer than God. It is tragic. This spiritual plateau that the Church has reached conveniently reduces the chances for confrontation. Nice people rarely rebuke, judge, confront, accuse or condemn. Nice people have less stress. It seems the only ones that Christians are quick to judge and condemn are fellow believers who judge and condemn the wicked. Go figure.
Edited (by me) source... Bob Enyart
===============================================
Back to my question earlier...
"He who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death." Ex. 21:17
What did Jesus himself say about this commandment? Link reference below to Bible verses..
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark7.htm
"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother’; and `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say..." Mark 7:8-11 Jesus reaffirmed the capital statutes of God’s law. Not only the murderer (Rev. 13:10; 1 Tim. 1:8-9; Rom. 13:4), but even the one who curses a parent must be put to death (Ex. 21:17 and Lev. 20:9) just as God commanded. God’s commands to execute the one who strikes or curses a parent are the death penalty statutes that liberal Christians are the most embarrassed over. However, Christ was not at all embarrassed over His Father’s commands. Jesus repeated these commands without caveat or reservation. Laying aside the commands of God has its consequences. In America, murder has become the number one cause of death among young black males, and suicide is the number three cause of death among all teenagers. There is a death penalty when children disrespect their parents. If Jesus’ telling of God’s command is ignored, countless children will die terrible deaths at the hands of other children and by their own hands.
On the other hand, if God’s command were enforced, rather than ridiculed, the shedding of innocent blood would virtually disappear in our land. God’s wisdom would save thousands of children. Man’s wisdom destroys them.
===============================================
Man's niceness has an adverse reaction because we don't use God's wisdom. Today's Christians are too nice... because of their traditions according to Jesus...
Have you ever heard of using hyperbole to make a point?
Yet, we've had control of the White House for 6 years and both houses of Congress for 12 years. What has been done about Abortion? NOTHING!
NOTHING!! BUSH'S FAULT!! READ ALL ABOUT IT!! BLAME IT ON BUSH!! BUSH DID IT!! BUSH DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!! BUSH IS OVERSTEPPING HIS BOUNDS!!.......blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003
108th Congress
1st Session
S.3
AN ACT
To prohibit the procedure commonly known as partial-birth abortion.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives
of the United States of America in Congress assembled, SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the "Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003"
SEC. 2 FINDINGS
The Congress finds and declares the following:
(1) A moral, medical, and ethical consensus exists that the practice of performing a partial-birth abortion -- an abortion in which a physician delivers an unborn child's body until only the head remains inside the womb, punctures the back of the child's skull with a Sharp instrument, and sucks the child's brains out before completing deliveryof the dead infant -- is a gruesome and inhumane procedure that is never medically necessaryand should be prohibited.
snip/
http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/abortion/2003s3.html
I admire your humility. I have run into a number of pro-lifers here on FR who have been presented with lists much longer than the one you saw, but have continued to act as if the President is solidly (and intentionally) on the side of the baby-killers. They can't even begin to imagine that they're wrong, or that it would be hard to turn around thirty years (or arguably many more) of entrenched death-worship.
Don't get discouraged. To be frank, the whole culture has to change. If the culture hadn't already been badly damaged, Roe vs. Wade would have caused a Constitutional crisis as the Executive and Legislative branches told the SCOTUS to get bent, or we might even have had an uprising. Instead, people said "killing babies is the law of the land? Ho-hum."
What did Jesus himself say about this commandment? Link reference below to Bible verses..
http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark7.htm
"For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men..." [Jesus] said to them, "All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition. For Moses said, `Honor your father and your mother’; and `He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say..." Mark 7:8-11 Jesus reaffirmed the capital statutes of God’s law....
You qoute part of Mark 7 verse 8, skip verse 9, write 10 as if it's part of 8, leave out the "and" between Mother and Who-so, fail to note that Jesus is reffering to Exodus 21:17, then of 11, you only write "But ye say, and leave out the rest.
It is always bad form to pick a few out of a series of connected verses of Jesus's own words to try to make a point, but to selectively edit His words inside His connected verses in an attempt to make a personal observation, and in such a way that implies he was the author of old testament verse......
well, let's just say that's the last post of yours I'll ever read.
Most smokers do not die of lung cancer--but I would not assume therefore that smoking is not a risk factor.
There are many women who regret their past abortions who were coerced, forced, or just plain ignorant/naive/gullible/scared about the whole issue, and who later went on to become pro-Life and have & happily raise happy children.
"There are many women who regret their past abortions who were coerced, forced, or just plain ignorant/naive/gullible/scared about the whole issue, and who later went on to become pro-Life and have & happily raise happy children."
Name ONE.
It is always bad form to pick a few out of a series of connected verses of Jesus's own words to try to make a point, but to selectively edit His words inside His connected verses in an attempt to make a personal observation, and in such a way that implies he was the author of old testament verse......
Good grief 4woodenboats... I linked the whole chapter in the link, the WHOLE chapter for the reader to read to understand the meaning in full context.
I figured you would of caught that since you did fully quote the link that I provided for the whole chapter.
Also you failed to show/announce/prove any mischaraterizion you said I presented.
I humble ask you to show me where I mischaraterized anything. I see the liberal in you is quacking in the knees that Jesus actually HIMSELF actually fully supported this commandment from the old testament whom HIS FATHER gave Moses.
and in such a way that implies he was the author of old testament verse......
Who was it that gave Moses the commandments? You tell me wooden? Tell me now please.. Hint... Jesus HIMSELF tells you in verse 9 who wrote it... Hint..."Full well ye reject the commandment of God"... Hint.... GOD WROTE IT and Moses told it to his followers (the Jews)...
well, let's just say that's the last post of yours I'll ever read.
You didn't read the first one, and you didn't support any of your points anyway. But lets fully look at the whole chapter in question and then you can tell me where I mischaraterized in any manner my points. I only paraphrased knowing that any person worth their salt would already have the Bible out checking and to save the reader some time by paraphrasing... But again, I linked the WHOLE CHAPTER for reference knowing some idiot out there would use your excuse..
Again, lets look at the whole chapter...
http://www.christiananswers.net/bible/mark7.html
1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.
2 And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.
3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.
4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.
5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
14 And when he had called all the people unto him, he said unto them, Hearken unto me every one of you, and understand:
15 There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
16 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
17 And when he was entered into the house from the people, his disciples asked him concerning the parable.
18 And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him;
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.
30 And when she was come to her house, she found the devil gone out, and her daughter laid upon the bed.
31 And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon, he came unto the Sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.
32 And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech him to put his hand upon him.
33 And he took him aside from the multitude, and put his fingers into his ears, and he spit, and touched his tongue;
34 And looking up to heaven, he sighed, and saith unto him, Ephphatha, that is, Be opened.
35 And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.
36 And he charged them that they should tell no man: but the more he charged them, so much the more a great deal they published it;
37 And were beyond measure astonished, saying, He hath done all things well: he maketh both the deaf to hear, and the dumb to speak.
Jesus fully corrected (and quite harshly) the Pharisees for NOT doing as God commanded. He even said why they did it in verse 9... "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."
Lets look at the verse 11... Where we see a word only used once in the Bible... "Corban"
But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free
Corban means a gift or offering consecrated to God. Anything over which this word was once pronounced was irrevocably dedicated to the temple. Land, however, so dedicated might be redeemed before the year of jubilee (Lev. 27:16-24). Our Lord condemns the Pharisees for their false doctrine, inasmuch as by their traditions they had destroyed the commandment which requires children to honor their father and mother, teaching them to find excuse from helping their parents by the device of pronouncing "Corban" over their goods, thus reserving them to their own selfish use.
If you can prove otherwise with scripture backing, I would gladly entertain your thoughts. Otherwise don't waste my time with baseless drivel.
Jesus emphatically (and HE is always correct) corrects the Pharisees for NOT following the law. Jesus tells why they do it... Jesus tells the Pharisees what happens because they do this in verse 13... "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition" .
If you are ashamed of Jesus... so be it. Your tradition makes the word of God useless... Jesus says so himself...
Jean Jones... she now runs the Dekalb County "Save a Life" center. She gives speaches to local churches. She foster cares for numerous children, and she hugged me tonight at the fair.
Her and her husband John run Sequoyah Caverns in Valley Head Alabama. They do great civil war reenactments there too. Great folks and Jean Jones cries her heart out giving her testimony. God can save anyone, He can forgive anyone of any sin including abortion.
Here is their web site... email at bottom if you want a heartfelt reply from her.
http://www.sequoyahcaverns.com/index.htm
Meant to ping ya to post 55..
with all these abortions and uterus abuse I wonder if there is no connection to growing instances of hysterectomies and cervical cancer in women?
I really believe that this leagalizing of abortion has facilitated the rampant promiscuity in modern culture. How long can such a sexually obssessed culture survive?
if these pro abortion people talk about choice why are so few people stressing the need for sexual self control as a choice? I realize that the abortion industry needs to make itself a nice living off of killing but sometimes I think that we are witnessing evolution in reverse.
I wonder how many people will go to heaven and find a brother or sister (that was aborted) they didn't even know they had there waiting for them? With divorce, mixed families, secrecy, and all of this worlds troubles, I am sure there is lots of unknown brothers and sisters out there..
Never thought about that before... something in your post just got me pondering.
Smile
LowOiL
March of Dimes has a huge PR campaign
suggesting we need to raise money to
find the reason for premature birth.
They are as big a liar as is the Susan G Koman
Foundation which gives money to Planned Parenthood
and denies that there is any link between abortion
and breast cancer.
www.abortionbreastcancer.com
Jane Roe
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