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S. Korean Lawmaker, "Russia might have given N. Korea know-how of miniature nukes"
Chosun Ilbo ^ | 10/11/06

Posted on 10/11/2006 2:33:45 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster

/begin my translation

S. Korean Lawmaker, "Russia might have given know-how of miniature nukes to N. Korea"

Kong Sung-jin, a S. Korean opposition lawmaker at Intelligence Committee of National Assembly, told on Oct. 11, "We have intelligence that the reason why Russia is the first nation N. Korea gave advance warning of its nuclear test is because Russia gave N. Korea technology for miniaturizing nukes. They are trying to verify the allegation."

Legislator Kong appeared on 'Open World Today with Chang Sung-min,' a news talk show of Pyong-hwa Radio, and commented, "Russia and China were the first to know N. Korea's nuclear test. Even though it is not verified, we heard that N. Korea notified Russia two hours before the test."

He maintained, "I am sure that N. Korea want to keep equal distance from both countries, but it may also reflect N. Korea's deep dissatisfaction with China, due to its recent pressure on N. Korea."

"China got notified 20 minutes before the test, and notified S. Korea, U.S., and Japan in this order. That is why S. Korea got informed at 10:50 am (Oct. 9.) Since neither of U.S., Japan, and China had not detected underground nuclear test (in advance,) it is not fair that our intelligence gathering ability is at fault."

Seoul = Yonhap News

2006.10.11

/end my translation



TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: china; horizontaltunnel; korea; miniaturenuke; northkorea; nucleartest; russia
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Mr. Kong must be refering to the information mentioned in the following passage from another news article:

/snip

British nuclear expert, Dr. John Large, pointed out, in his Oct. 10 e-mail to Korean Federation For Environmental Movement, "A nuclear test using a horizontal tunnel was developed by Russia. This design could disrupt P-wave, a seismic wave used to estimate the size and the location of nuclear test."

Dr. Large went on, "If N. Korea did conduct a nuclear test using a horizontal tunnel, we could raise suspicion that Russia helped out N. Korean nuclear test. Russians estimates N. Korea's test yielded 3~10 kilotons. This is a fair size blast for a first test."

/snip


In another FR-thread I posted, we had the following image whose lower half contains the schematic diagram of a test tunnel. It is a horizontal tunnel. A freeper GOP_1900AD left the following interesting comment:

If the diagram is correct, then indeed, this was not a standard underground test. Not only was there a cavity but some sort of enclosure within it. What was the enclosure? Note also the zigs and zags of the access tunnel. Might have been intended to result in a resonance which would cancel out the P-waves and help to minimize venting.


Is it really possible that Russia helped out either design of nuke or design of their test site? If this design can indeed cancel out some of P-waves and make the blast appear smaller than the actual one, it is one way to explain why the blast produced such a small readout at many seismic stations. On the other hand, we have no report of radioactive isotopes from the blast and satellites still failed to spot a new crater-like depression formed after the underground test. The above scenario cannot address these problems, either.

Anyway, Russia is doggedly claiming that it is indeed the nuclear blast and the World should treat N. Korea as a nuclear power. Why so insistent while many others are not really sure? Especially, the Russian Defense Minister?

1 posted on 10/11/2006 2:33:46 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; AmericanInTokyo; OahuBreeze; yonif; risk; Steel Wolf; nuconvert; MizSterious; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 10/11/2006 2:34:24 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster

It is called posturing for when the time comes when Iran announces that it has the same technology and when Russia states it will defend Iran.


3 posted on 10/11/2006 2:46:55 AM PDT by eastforker (.308 SOCOM 16, hottest brand going.2350 FPS muzlim velocity)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Well, if it was done within a mountain, there wouldn't need to be a depression left behind, I would think.


4 posted on 10/11/2006 2:51:07 AM PDT by ConservativeMind
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Thank you, very interesting and good information to know.


5 posted on 10/11/2006 2:59:07 AM PDT by nw_arizona_granny (Time for the world to wake up and face the fact that there is a war going on, it is world wide!)
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To: NinoFan

This might interest you.


6 posted on 10/11/2006 3:05:02 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Yeah, North Korea made a miniature nuke alright, out of bottle rockets and M80's
7 posted on 10/11/2006 3:48:17 AM PDT by #1CTYankee (That's right, I have no proof. So what of it??)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Which is why President Bush knowing Putin's heart is complete B$. Once KGB always KGB.


8 posted on 10/11/2006 4:00:52 AM PDT by conservativecorner
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To: TigerLikesRooster; Tailgunner Joe; M. Espinola

Anyway, Russia is doggedly claiming that it is indeed the nuclear blast and the World should treat N. Korea as a nuclear power. Why so insistent while many others are not really sure? Especially, the Russian Defense Minister?==

It is just because it was the NK-test of warhead of newest russian ICBM Topol-M which Russia sold to NK in amount 100 devices in order to they resell them to Iran with price $1 bln per device (the nice price isn't it?:).

So the price is right and Russia makes lot of money but you may image that KGB-colonel Putin couldn't directly sell them to Iran fearing to piss off Europe and USA.

So then NK just tested what Russia delivered them. If the explosion wasn't nuclier then it means that Russia deceived NK and Iran and sold then nonnuclier warheads as nuclier which is huge deceipt. Russia losing face before her customers and incoming deals with Hugo Chavez which is about 100 Topol-M more will go under.

Hence to defend russian business, Russian defense minister just compels NK offocials now that the warheads on sold newest ICBMs are nuclier indeed.




How is such explanation? I heard that it could be exerpt from the latest article of Anna Politkovskaya:)). So you will read such things in WP tomorrow:)).


9 posted on 10/11/2006 4:02:55 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
How could the Russians tell the difference between a working nuclear device which was successfully dampened and a failed nuclear device that was not properly dampened ? I don't see how you can do that with remote sensing in the above illustrated example. Russia is either lying or guessing.
10 posted on 10/11/2006 4:04:11 AM PDT by justa-hairyape
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To: TigerLikesRooster
DPRK gave China 20 minutes advance heads up on the test.

DPRK gave RUSSIA a full two hours advance notice.

The gap of nearly 1 hour and 40 minutes is clearly not lost on Japanese analysts on TV today.

They clearly see a DPRK-Sino split and a cozying up (to the best extent they can) with the former Soviet Union.

11 posted on 10/11/2006 4:08:39 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (..is an American allright, but is not in Japan, folks. Thanks for letting me keep the moniker.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

12 posted on 10/11/2006 4:19:38 AM PDT by AmericanInTokyo (..is an American allright, but is not in Japan, folks. Thanks for letting me keep the moniker.)
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To: RusIvan
RE #9

Perhaps Russia can clear up a lot of misunderstanding by showing why they are sure it is a nuclear blast instead of insisting that it is so.

Russia has alway play down whatever provocation N. Korea created. This time, it did the exact opposite, even when China was not sure. This really raises some suspicion.

Coupled with horizontal shaft design being originally Russian, it raises a lot of speculation.

Personally, I would not be surprised if Russia helped out test site design. As for mini-nukes, I am not so sure if that is really the case.

By the way, I wonder how soon you turn up. Longer than I thought.:) You must have been sleeping. You need to recruit RusIvan2 as a backup.:)

13 posted on 10/11/2006 4:19:46 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster

NO Gamma burst detected by staellite or aircraft, no radiation detected anywhere in the area... no nuke exploded in n korea.

LLS


14 posted on 10/11/2006 4:23:15 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: LibLieSlayer
Re #14

Does that mean that this test is a con-job by N. Korea with Russia as its engineering consultant and PR rep ?

That is, set off conventional explosion and somehow use tunnel design to create garbled P-wave which could pass as evidence of a nuke test?

15 posted on 10/11/2006 4:34:17 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster
"On the other hand, we have no report of radioactive isotopes from the blast and satellites still failed to spot a new crater-like depression formed after the underground test."

...after a test in a horizontal tunnel that was 6,000 feet under ground?
16 posted on 10/11/2006 4:39:15 AM PDT by familyop ("he died for rodeo horse on Jul 25, 1987." - - skanamaru)
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To: familyop
Re #16

The crater could be shallow, but visible. At least wouldn't the height of (hill or mountain) change by a few meters.

By the way, are you sure that it was 6000 feet underground? That is 1,800 meters, which is really deep. The tunnel cannot be horizontal. The hill is merely 1,200 feet high.

17 posted on 10/11/2006 4:48:15 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Either that... or their nukes are just as good as their taepo dong doodle.

LLS


18 posted on 10/11/2006 5:10:13 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

By the way, I wonder how soon you turn up. Longer than I thought.:) You must have been sleeping. You need to recruit RusIvan2 as a backup.:)==

I live in Moscow. Moscow time now is 4:12PM.

it raises a lot of speculation.==

Lot of speculation indeed:)


19 posted on 10/11/2006 5:11:56 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
"The crater could be shallow, but visible. At least wouldn't the height of (hill or mountain) change by a few meters.

By the way, are you sure that it was 6000 feet underground? That is 1,800 meters, which is really deep. The tunnel cannot be horizontal. The hill is merely 1,200 feet high.
"

Was the test done at the following mentioned location?




N Korea's bomb 'would kill 200,000'

The Telegraph
By Sergey Soukhorukov in Pyongyang

"The Russians believe the test, if it happens, is likely to be carried out in a horizontal tunnel more than a mile below ground at Kilju, in North Hamgyon province, in the north-east of the country where US military satellites have detected recent activity."




Some commenters have also mentioned gamma ray detection efforts. Even initial rays would not be detectable through that much earth. With enough horizontal airspace (to spread out the settling effect in a tunnel) and so much earth above the shot, I doubt that a surface crater would be visible.
20 posted on 10/11/2006 5:24:28 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Russia would be fools if they did. NK would turn right around and use it on them faster than they'd think.


21 posted on 10/11/2006 5:28:27 AM PDT by ukie55
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To: TigerLikesRooster

BTW, earlier reports said that the test shot was done in a deep mine.


22 posted on 10/11/2006 5:31:03 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: ukie55

Russia is helping Iran with their nuclear program, all thw hile they fight Muslims in Chechnya. I am not sure they arent fools. This idea is not so far-fetched as it appears.


23 posted on 10/11/2006 5:48:01 AM PDT by sgtbono2002 (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

I see the diagram that you posted in comment #1. If that diagram is correct, the arched shape of the mountain might have given enough support to prevent a complete cavein (also preventing cratering). ...depends, in part, on the composition of the substrata. A long, horizontal entrance shaft might also have prevented venting of fallout into the sky (spreading what little residue vented that far along the ground, instead). If gamma detection were attempted long after the shot, it might have failed due to fallout decay. If during the shot, the earth above the initial rays might have prevented detection.

And yes, this is only an attempt at guessing.


24 posted on 10/11/2006 5:59:46 AM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Indeed it does. Thank you!


25 posted on 10/11/2006 6:26:20 AM PDT by NinoFan
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Maybe they just didn't have the money to make campaign donations to Xlinton's party during the Nineties the way the Chinese did.

Poor Xlinton, victim of those price-cutting Russkies!
26 posted on 10/11/2006 6:36:38 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: familyop
Re #24

Thanks for your comments. S. Koreans believe the site was under a hill of 1200 feet in height. However, U.S. locate the position some 20 miles to the north. I am not sure how deep is the tunnel located.

Things get murkier. The last I expected from this test was more confusion. Considering that N. Korea did not make a big celebration extravaganza and had rather subdued coverage, something went wrong with this test.

27 posted on 10/11/2006 6:39:12 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: LibLieSlayer

Uh, that does not mean no nuke test in NK.


28 posted on 10/11/2006 6:52:08 AM PDT by NinoFan
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To: lizol; Lukasz; strategofr; GSlob; spanalot; Thunder90; Tailgunner Joe; propertius; REactor; ...
Russia/Soviet/Coldwar2 PING!!!

To be added or removed from this list, please FReepmail me...

29 posted on 10/11/2006 6:57:29 AM PDT by Thunder90
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To: George W. Bush

Clinton gave Russia our nuclear secrets (Design specs, missile specs, ect) as part of treaties he signed with them.


30 posted on 10/11/2006 6:59:28 AM PDT by Thunder90
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To: AmericanInTokyo

Putin has also threatened Kimmie...
China and Russia knew about the test at the same time. If Russia knew beforehand, they would have told Chinese intel.


31 posted on 10/11/2006 7:01:47 AM PDT by Thunder90
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To: NinoFan

See post 18 and get back with me. I offered another possibility. To think Russia would risk helping them obtain a small Nuke would be suicide... and pooty is not a dumb-ass... he is ruthless, but thinks like a fox.

LLS


32 posted on 10/11/2006 7:01:59 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

The Chinese and Russians knew exactly what happened. They are only giving out conflicting reports to attempt to throw off our intel people.


33 posted on 10/11/2006 7:03:14 AM PDT by Thunder90
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To: eastforker

I believe the day of the alliance between the reawakened Bear of Russia and Iran will become known one way or another.

If it comes in war, I will not be surpised then, or if sooner.

Putin is a nasty piece of work and so are his henchmen.


34 posted on 10/11/2006 7:12:12 AM PDT by romanesq
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To: Thunder90

35 posted on 10/11/2006 7:14:48 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Only stupid people would vote for McCain, Warner, Hagle, Snowe, Graham, or any RINO)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Look at the other NK programs like rocketry: while the leader is a deranged baboon, his engineers are perfectly sane and proceed from the simpler to the more complex. Given the fact that their fissionables stockpile is small, they wouldn't be likely to waste the prcious stuff on the advanced experimentation, but stick with what is simpler and easier, but works. Thus as to the nuke design, I'd doubt that their first test would be the one of an advanced model.


36 posted on 10/11/2006 7:19:30 AM PDT by GSlob
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To: GSlob
Re #36

I agree.

37 posted on 10/11/2006 7:23:44 AM PDT by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Miniature?

Like a "suitcase" nuke?

I keep hearing that these tinpot tyrants don't have the means to deliver their nukes. Don't think ICBMs are really necessary anymore, are they?


38 posted on 10/11/2006 7:39:53 AM PDT by Let's Roll ( "Congressmen who ... undermine the military ... should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - A. Lincoln)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Filed for later use


39 posted on 10/11/2006 7:49:09 AM PDT by Robe (Rome did not create a great empire by talking, they did it by killing all those who opposed them)
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To: AmericanInTokyo

"DPRK gave China 20 minutes advance heads up on the test.
DPRK gave RUSSIA a full two hours advance notice."

How do we know either of these statements is true?


40 posted on 10/11/2006 7:52:47 AM PDT by nuconvert ([there's a lot of bad people in the pistachio business] (...but his head is so tiny...))
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To: Thunder90
Clinton gave Russia our nuclear secrets (Design specs, missile specs, ect) as part of treaties he signed with them.

Which treaties? Can you post some details?

41 posted on 10/11/2006 8:07:30 AM PDT by Doe Eyes
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To: TigerLikesRooster
It's obvious that Russia want us to believe it's real, and they want to tell us what we should do about it. This thing is so transparent, it's ridiculous.
42 posted on 10/11/2006 8:42:48 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: TigerLikesRooster

BTW...How motivated do you think the N. Korean army is (let's leave Red China out of this for the moment)? I could see their elite troops being motivated to fight, but I can't see the regular army being motivated to just about anything except defect at the first available opportunity. Just curious to get your assessment on morale.


43 posted on 10/11/2006 8:46:22 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
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To: Thunder90
Clinton gave Russia our nuclear secrets (Design specs, missile specs, ect) as part of treaties he signed with them.

Total BS! Once again you don't have a clue regarding what you post. Clinton was responsible for giving the Chinese the ability to target their ICBM's with more precision.
44 posted on 10/11/2006 9:14:48 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Russia hasn'nt changed at all and can not be trusted. Its sad that some of the russians are proud that they support regimes like Iran and NK. They have no idea how idiotic and backwards they look in the civilized world. Russia at the present time can not be trust and the US,SK,Japan need to reinforce our alliance to deter any future agression from these thugs.


45 posted on 10/11/2006 9:22:59 AM PDT by MARKUSPRIME
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To: GarySpFc
Clinton was responsible for giving the Chinese the ability to target their ICBM's with more precision.

I believe you're right... but I KNOW Russia sent pilots to fly NKorean jet-fighters in 1950.

46 posted on 10/11/2006 9:32:07 AM PDT by johnny7 (“And what's Fonzie like? Come on Yolanda... what's Fonzie like?!”)
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To: johnny7
I believe you're right... but I KNOW Russia sent pilots to fly NKorean jet-fighters in 1950.

The Soviets sent those fighter pilots. The Soviet Union fell in 1991.
47 posted on 10/11/2006 9:40:37 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: GarySpFc

Yeah... wanna' sell some of that reefer?


48 posted on 10/11/2006 9:43:46 AM PDT by johnny7 (“And what's Fonzie like? Come on Yolanda... what's Fonzie like?!”)
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To: GarySpFc
Really, some people use Clinton the way Napoleon used Snowball in Animal Farm, as a politically useful villain who is somehow responsible for every single thing that ever goes wrong.

The last thing conservatives want to do is obscure the record of Clinton's real damage under a mountain of nonsense.

49 posted on 10/11/2006 9:44:08 AM PDT by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: sgtbono2002

The idea might not be so far fetched but it's still stupid. You can't trust that kind of evil.


50 posted on 10/11/2006 9:49:03 AM PDT by ukie55
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