Skip to comments.Is Israel in America’s Interest?
Posted on 10/13/2006 4:13:35 AM PDT by familyop
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And even for those of us who trust....
Can you answer the question though?
Is the Old Testament literally true for the modern world? Yes or No?
Is anyone solid enough in their faith to answer a very simple question?
I like this one too.
Like many here I would support Israel anyway due to the fact that they are a democratic ally in the middle east.
As I stated, What problems exist in our society today that would not if we adhered to its teachings? the answer is many, so the OT teaching IS applicable - YES - it's just we WILL NOT and thus we reap the consequence.
The entire Bible is true.
Should we stone adulterers today? No, they were under the Law, we are under Grace ever since Jesus rose from the dead, provided we trust in Him.
I get the impression you are not trying to understand the issue, but only argue against it.
"Is anyone solid enough in their faith to answer a very simple question?"
Are you solid enough in your doubts to die without fear?
So you believe the Old Testament is literally true? Okay thanks for answering the question.
Now, if that is true, then do you support killing those who commit adultery and homosexuals as God commands in the Olt Testament?
The point of this (in case anyone forgets) is that many on here are taking American foreign policy from this very book. If it is true on Israel, it is true for all things. It it is not true for all things, then the Israel policy from the Bible could be wrong too.
So you agree that there are parts of the Old testament no longer relevant to us after Jesus? Thank-You!
If we are heading toward Armageddon, abandoning our friends is not going to keep us from going there. If we are not heading toward Armageddon, why would we abandon our friends?
I am sorry, it is not I who is without sin - except through the finished work of Christ, therefore I am not qualified to cast that stone. I'll defer that to Him.
The U.S.A. needs to side with Israel for a number of reasons, but no one has mentioned a very practical reason that trumps the others: If we abandoned Israel and the Jews faced annihilation then Israel would have no alternative to nuclear war on their enemies. Our involvement in the region has prevented disastrous wars. The same can be said about the India/Pakistan conflict where we have no direct national, cultural, or religious interests. It is in everyone's best interest that nuclear war be avoided.
"Also Israel is our only real friend on the planet.I am convinced she would die for us just as surely as we would die for her, if push ever comes to shove."
Yeh - it seems that way. Again, I think it's that Biblical bond.
So Britain and Australia are not real friends? Don't think so somehow?
Its a hard issure for me to understand also, Jesus clearly states that He didnt destroy the law. Other passages teach us that we are no longer under the Law, but Grace.
Nevertheless, I believe the entire Bible is the inspired word of God, so if there is something I dont understand it is my fault.
Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
[ The Scriptures Opened ] Then He said to them, These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.
I believe God still has His hand over Israel, always has and always will. And that He will punish those who come against her for His names sake. I also believe He will bless her allies. He will also punish Israel when His will calls for it, and has many times..
He is the same yesterday, today, and tommorow.
Have you noticed that some say Jesus did destroy the Law and then other say he didn't on this very thread?
Also, some are saying that the Bible is literally true and relevant for today, but that not every commandment is to be accepted?!?!
And on this some are basing American Foreign Policy in the Middle East? Wow!
I think the ultimate reasoning - and probably most logical that could help Jack2006 is that in a geographic area where savage, tribal instincts still exist, where so-called "friend" will cut a friend's throat at the slightest provocation, the relationship of seeing one totally through thick and thin of circumstance bears a testimony totally foreign - yet admirable among Arabs and they are jealous of any similar relationship. I firmly believe our relationship with Israel and her's with us teaches the willing Arab true friendship lies only in mutual admiration and never through fear of the sword.
In turn, it teaches a relationship with our Creator ought be based upon admiration of Him and not through fear of the law - a concept totally alien to the islamite.
"But alternative theories will always exist. There were many failures of communications and much confusion surrounding the incident. I give Isreali the benefit of the doubt."
Me too. It's just a typical anti-Jewish conspiracy theory that people like to spew.
You don't see the same people claiming the US hates Canada and that's why our planes attacked their ground troops (twice, now).
I agree with supporting Israel too. I just won't use the Bible to dictate foreign policy. That is what Islam does.
As for protecting Israel - I have a sure-fire method of doing so.
All the Israelis need to do is let it be known that if anyone tries to fire Nuclear or Chemicals weapons at them (ie not just war but obliteration) then they will totally destroy their most beloved place.
I am sure you can all work out were that is. I think that would stop them.
Did Jesus coming and dying as a sacrifice for our sins change the way some things are done versus when people were under the Law of Moses? Yes, imo.
Did it change the fact that God chose Israel as the Nation through which He would work His will on earth? No.
Suppose you accept that God has a plan for Israel,(Israel is mentioned 1000s of times in the bible) would you want to be a nation going against that plan? That didnt work out well for Ramses, among others.
I think our foregn policy is based on Israel being a strong ally in a cesspool of middle east fanatics mainly. Just as prophesied long ago.
His reminder of the US relationship with Israel before 1967 was interesting. I was just a small child at the time, but I distinctly remember that even though our government may not have been allied with them, our People were. I would say that the government of the US that abandons Israel will not be our government for very long.
Exactly. And if we threw the Izzies to them it would not change their hatred for us one iota.
We support Israel for all the right reasons: self-interest and ideology (i.e., shared democratic values and institutions).
People interpret the Bible dfferently sometimes, no surprise there. Who among us understands it all? Certainly not me.
One this is certain though from a Christian perspective is that Israel is beloved by God.
It would be illegitimate for the United States policy decisions on biblicy precepts, which are open to interpritation, however it's perfectly legitimate for individuals to make their judgments based on religious belief, whether on crime, social issues, or foreign affairs.
Your use of the death penalty is a straw man. In Judaism the death penalty is viewed primarily as an indication of the severity of an offence, the penalty not necessarily carried out by the hand of man, with the exception of murder. The Tanakh doesn't stand alone, rather is explained by the oral law. The death penalty requirements were stringent enough, 2 witness', and prior warning of the crime to be committed and it's penalty, as to be rarely used even in ancient times, and essentially defunct for about 2,000 years. This contension can easily be disproven by relating examples from the last few millenia, but I wouldn't waste much time on it.
I don't like Wikipedia much, but I'll post a short paragraph from them below which is accurate, as well as another article which explains the issue.
If you're point is to debase others opinions which are biblicly based, I'd suggest asking them to provide proof of spontaneously comusting bushes next time.
The official teachings of Judaism approve the death penalty in principle but the standard of proof required for application of death penalty is extremely stringent, and in practice, it has been abolished by various Talmudic decisions, making the situations in which a death sentence could be passed effectively impossible and hypothetical. "Forty years before the destruction of the Temple" in 70 CE, i. e., in 30 CE, the Sanhedrin effectively abolished capital punishment, making it an hypothetical upper limit on the severity of punishment, fitting in finality for God alone to use, not fallible people.
A. At the very dawn of civilization, immediately after the flood, God commands Noah: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man will his blood be shed, for in the image of God did He create man"(Genesis 9:6). It is precisely because of man's elevated, Divine nature that we were commanded to deal strictly with anyone who diminishes the expression of His image by committing murder.
After the giving of the Torah, we find that many different transgressions are liable to capital punishment, including murder, adultery, and desecrating the Sabbath.
So it would seem that for mankind as a whole, and also among the Jewish people, capital punishment is a legitimate and even vital part of the system of justice.
In 1981, Rabbi Moshe Feinstein, the most outstanding rabbinical authority in the United States at that time, was asked by the Governor of New York (Hugh Carey) to present the Orthodox Jewish approach to capital punishment, which was then (as ever) a controversial topic in the state. In his answer (volume II of Choshen Mishpat number 68), Rav Moshe constantly emphasizes not the underlying liability to capital punishment but rather the many different practical obstacles that the Torah justice system, as explained in the Talmud, places in the way of actual execution of this punishment.
First of all, Rav Moshe explains, "the death penalty is mentioned in the Torah only for the gravest transgressions," which would be committed by people who are completely amoral. He goes on to state that even these punishments "are not out of hate for the wrongdoers or [even] out of concern for the stability of society . . . but rather so that people should be aware of the seriousness of these prohibitions and therefore would not transgress them." Indeed, even these punishments are tempered by "sensitivity to the importance of each soul," to the extent that the technical requirements for carrying out the death penalty were next to impossible to fulfill: That no circumstantial evidence is accepted, that warning of the penalty is given and acknowledged before the crime is committed, and so on.
For this reason, Rav Moshe explains, the death penalty was never customary in Jewish communities even when the secular government authorized them to employ it. "And even so, in all the generations there were virtually no murderers among the Jews, because of the gravity of the prohibition and because they were educated by the Torah and by the punishments of the Torah to understand the gravity of the prohibition, and not because they were simply afraid of the punishment."
We can summarize by saying that on the one hand, the Torah prescribes capital punishment for a variety of transgressions. Yet simultaneously, our tradition tells us that these punishments were next to impossible to carry out. It seems that the prescription of capital punishment is mainly an educational device to impress upon us the severity of a small core of basic regulations which are essential for an ethical society. It is not meant to encourage the legal system to actually sentence offenders to death.
However, Rav Moshe adds that in the case of a particularly cruel murderer, or in a situation where bloodshed becomes widespread and out of control, there is justification for the authorities to carry out the death penalty in order to restore respect for the law.
We can learn from this profound reply that in any system of justice, the educational dimension is at least as important as the deterrent factor. Severe punishments are meant to impress upon citizens the severity of the crime even more than they are meant to raise the cost of crime.
In fact, sometimes the educational and deterrent elements contradict. "Cruel and unusual punishment" forbidden by the US Constitution should be a particularly effective deterrent. Yet its educational message is negative, as it tends to erode rather than affirm man's Divine image. It seems that the United States founding fathers were aware of the inner message of the Biblical justice system, as expounded by Rabbi Feinstein, as they forbade this kind of judgment and thus gave precedence to educating the citizens in what is right and wrong rather than threatening them to toe the line.
Incentives and deterrents have importance, but alone they can never create an enlightened society. The fundamental bedrock of society is education towards uplifting values, and the criminal justice system, like other aspects of law and society, must take this into account.
More detailed commentary could be found here
And THAT'S the differentiating point. Islam is as Islam does - depend upon them at your own peril, it's who they are, it's in their teaching. Biblical precepts governing our FP bear witness whether or not we believe the concept I relayed in the previous post. Are we who we claim to be all the time, or are we not? Can the world rely upon us (and Israel) to stand by our word and our friends in sound doctrine - through good and bad times, or are we subject to conditionary elements such as Islam teaches.
Whether we like it or not, whether we admit it or not, our core values exhibited before others are based upon the beliefs we hold sacred; and those consequently and ultimately govern how we deal with others.
I heard a saying once that if you deal with someone you know is a crook, you shouldn't be surprised when you're hornswoggled.
What is the greatest envy of the world when they see the US (and Israel)? Maybe I should restate that: It's what they don't see that's truly more appealing.
I think it's because we are one of the few countries on the planet that Loves Jews. We do not tolerate anti-semitism, and most of our people love Israel right-or-wrong. Frankly I can't think of any other country that supports the right of the Jewish People to exist as the US does.
"Talking" spontaneously combusting bushes~!
That occured to me while typing, but I couldn't relate it to the topic at hand.
Pardon, I should have been more astute and written, "Biblical precepts INFLUENCING our FP..."
Truly, "governing" was the wrong word.
Exactly, and we should remind Kramer that doing the right thing is sometimes a welcome and honourable burden. That's just the way it is.
"I think it's because we are one of the few countries on the planet that Loves Jews. We do not tolerate anti-semitism, and most of our people love Israel right-or-wrong. Frankly I can't think of any other country that supports the right of the Jewish People to exist as the US does."
I'm saying we both have the same Father, though the Jews don't know it yet. That creates our bond in the here and now.
I can tell that you approach every topic with thoughtful analysis and deep thought.
haven't you heard, oil isn't going to run out, There have been huge new discoveries: The Green River Field, off the
Gulf of Mexico, South America, etc.
Actually, Israel doesn't have a democracy: Their government
and economy is modelled after European Socialism with their
The apostle Paul agrees:
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 25 As He says also in Hosea:
I will call them My people, who were not My people, And her beloved, who was not beloved.
In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
We owe much to Abraham
...rather than being a slave to the thoughts of other people?
If a=b is true then a=b must always be true.
In this thread a=b unless it doesn't suit them. :P
In other words, "The Bible is the word of God and we shall always follow his command. It is always literally true...well...except for that bit!" :)
God told us to. It's that simple.
Thanks for doing my Bible study for me. :-)
I've read the Bible...and I am not nearly as confused about what it actually says as you seem to be!
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Your post doesn't even apply to my comments.
I am not confused at all. It is those who see it as God's 100% literal commandment and then bizarrely justify why they don't agree with everything it says who are confused.
So we both agree that the bible should be interpreted and analysed as not everything should be taken literally.
That is all I have been saying.
And it therefore follows that American Foreign Policy should not be dictated by the Old Testament books written thousands of years ago.
13 And of Joseph he said, Blessed of the LORD be his land, for the precious things of heaven, for the dew, and for the deep that coucheth beneath,
14 And for the precious fruits brought forth by the sun, and for the precious things put forth by the moon,
15 And for the chief things of the ancient mountains, and for the precious things of the lasting hills,
16 And for the precious things of the earth and fulness thereof, and for the good will of him that dwelt in the bush: let the blessing come upon the head of Joseph, and upon the top of the head of him that was separated from his brethren.
17 His glory is like the firstling of his bullock, and his horns are like the horns of unicorns: with them he shall push the people together to the ends of the earth: and they are the ten thousands of Ephraim, and they are the thousands of Manasseh.
For several years "America the Beautiful" was sung to almost any popular air or folk tune with which the lyrics fit: "Auld Lang Syne" was one of the most common. Today it is sung to a melody written in 1882 by Samuel Augustus Ward, a Newark, New Jersey, church organist and choirmaster. Ward originally composed the melody (also titled "Materna") to accompany the words of the sixteenth century hymn "O Mother Dear, Jerusalem." When the National Federation of Music Clubs sponsored a 1926 contest to elicit new music for Bates' poem but failed to find a winner, Ward's music prevailed.
"America the Beautiful" has been called "an expression of patriotism at its finest." It conveys an attitude of appreciation and gratitude for the nation's extraordinary physical beauty and abundance, without triumphalism.
Oh beautiful, for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain,
For purple mountain majesties
Above the fruited plain!
America! America! God shed his grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood, from sea to shining sea.
Oh beautiful, for pilgrims' feet
Whose stern, impassioned stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness!
America! America! God mend thine ev'ry flaw;
Confirm thy soul in self control, thy liberty in law!
Oh beautiful, for heroes proved
In liberating strife,
Who more than self their country loved
And mercy more than life!
America! America! May God thy gold refine,
'Til all success be nobleness, and ev'ry gain divine!
Oh beautiful, for patriot's dream
That sees, beyond the years,
Thine alabaster cities gleam
Undimmed by human tears!
America! America! God shed his grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood, from sea to shining sea!
O mother dear, Jerusalem, When shall I come to thee? When shall my sorrows have an end? The joys when shall I see? O happy harbor of the saints! O sweet and pleasant soil! In thee no sorrow may be found, No grief, no care, no toil.
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