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Putin Gets Away With Murder
Weekly Standard ^ | 10/23/06 | Anders Åslund

Posted on 10/16/2006 5:24:37 AM PDT by Donna Lee Nardo

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To: 1rudeboy
You know, if the Russian law enforcement solved a journalist's-murder case once in a while, maybe the western press would turn its attention elsewhere.

I shall reveal to you small secret, to consequence to sneeze on the western press.
So was always. They listen to the management only.
And the management listens to public opinion only.
And a greater part of the population to sneeze on Politkovskaya.
51 posted on 10/16/2006 9:11:46 PM PDT by Semargl
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To: GarySpFc
One of the signature pieces of policy in my administration has been the Millennium Challenge Account. It's a foreign funding mechanism that recognizes countries that fight corruption, support rule of law, invest in the health and education of their people, and adopt open markets. And one of the most robust Millennium Challenge Account projects is with Georgia. It's a sign -- should be a sign to the people of Georgia, and people in the neighborhood, that the United States respects the decisions this government has made, and wants to work closely with the people of Georgia to help Georgia succeed, to help create the conditions for success.

I don't see these kinds of statements about Russia being made.

Watch the video.

52 posted on 10/16/2006 9:51:00 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: Semargl

I agree with you regarding Yugoslavia. Bombing that country served no strategic interest of the United States and only served to force an unnecessary wedge between Russia and the U.S.


53 posted on 10/16/2006 9:57:31 PM PDT by streetpreacher (What if you're wrong?)
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To: GarySpFc
"Before you tuck in with your teddy bear make certain to check under your bed for evil KGB spies."

I really would wish you leave Teddy out of this, but hence forth I'll be more diligent making sure you're not creeping around under there....comrade.

The new Czar's energy fix

54 posted on 10/16/2006 10:22:02 PM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: M. Espinola
please !!! leave Russia alone.
We really don't need the democracy like in Iraq, we don't need any help in building open prosperous society. We don't need any help in building free market. And Really don't want your kind of so-called "free media" (CNN,Fox,BBS) - it is enough.
once we asked for ... it was a horrible mistake? we are still paying for !!!
P.S. I've newer voted for Putin? I hate communism and nationalism! But I'm among the 77% supporters of Putin policy.
55 posted on 10/17/2006 12:00:20 AM PDT by Nikolay Lee Sea Cin
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To: M. Espinola
Russia demands U.S. lift sanctions

Dollar weakens as Russia is set to add yen reserves

56 posted on 10/17/2006 12:38:33 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: M. Espinola

That is a great gif. Where did you get it?


57 posted on 10/17/2006 12:40:20 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: Nikolay Lee Sea Cin

58 posted on 10/17/2006 12:44:07 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
That gif was on an American based energy site. Here is the lastest from Moscow:

A policeman guards an entrance to the house where Anatoly Voronin was found dead / Photo from news.yahoo.com

"The business chief of Russian state news agency Itar-Tass was found knifed to death at his flat in central Moscow on Monday, Itar-Tass is quoted by the Reuters news agency.

Anatoly Voronin, 55, Tass’s business manager, died “as a result of multiple knife wounds,” a source in Moscow’s Prosecutor General told Tass."

59 posted on 10/17/2006 1:45:50 AM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: Nikolay Lee Sea Cin
Nikolay Lee Sea Cin do I know you by another FR name?

Funny you showing up for the first time on FR - today. How are you comrade? Any good vodka?lol

60 posted on 10/17/2006 1:48:04 AM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: Nikolay Lee Sea Cin
"Really don't want your kind of so-called "free media"


I wish you would take it, we don't want it.

61 posted on 10/17/2006 1:55:11 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* “I love you guys”)
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To: MarMema
Great eye opening links.

Between Putin demanding the US remove sanctions against two of his dummy companies - caught selling sensitive technology to the terrorist exporting Iranian Mullah régime, to yet another underhanded move by the Energy Czar to further sink the US Dollar, tyrant Putin and his KGB henchmen have started off the week in a very typical Moscow manner.

Quoting from the link: Dollar weakens as Russia is set to add yen reserves

"The dollar fell after Alexei Ulyukayev, the Russian central bank's first deputy chairman, told the news agency Interfax that the bank might increase holdings of yen from almost zero percent. Russia's reserves, the world's third largest after China's and Japan's, have swelled about 50 percent this year to $267.9 billion as oil prices surged.

"The move could lead toward broader U.S. dollar weakness," said Mark Meadows, a strategist at the currency-trading company Tempus Consulting in Washington."

Putin is soooo good to US....

62 posted on 10/17/2006 2:00:30 AM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: Admin Moderator
Bloomberg Publications, another reason to keep my computer polished.
63 posted on 10/17/2006 2:51:19 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: MarMema

Israeli soldiers.
Russian spies.==

BHAHAHA!:))) It is really funny! Such nice bias!:))

Once in WW2 the radiostation of one country reported: "The damn enemy treacherously shot down our plane which peacefully bombed thier town". That was the bias likewise yours:)).


64 posted on 10/17/2006 2:52:47 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: RusIvan

65 posted on 10/17/2006 2:55:30 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: M. Espinola

"The move could lead toward broader U.S. dollar weakness," said Mark Meadows, a strategist at the currency-trading company Tempus Consulting in Washington."

Putin is soooo good to US....==

Why you so sour?:). Accually the weaker dollar then it is easier to pay America' debts and more competitive the american goods became.


66 posted on 10/17/2006 2:57:04 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: GBA

Going into a neighboring country and capturing their soldiers is not the same as a country arresting foreigners spying while in that country.==

Just what if some country in which USA has the military base will arrest 4 american officers say captains or leutanats then acussed them with spying and throw them to thir zindan.
I predict the very sharp reaction from USA maybe rescue mission or something.

Because the capture of one country the military personel of another country were always the act of war.


67 posted on 10/17/2006 3:01:19 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: MarMema

Watch the video.==

It is all good. But tell me what if Akhazians and Oseetians do not wnat Georgian progress on them? They will defend themselves with weapons.
They already did it once when in 1992 Georgians started the ethnic wars on them.
Now you propose the new wars?


68 posted on 10/17/2006 3:04:30 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: RusIvan

Why on earth would the Abkhaz choose Russia over Georgia?
I know they lean that direction, but it seems incredible to me to make sure a choice.


69 posted on 10/17/2006 3:09:05 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: M. Espinola
But you got to remember that there is more U.S dollars in circulation in the ex-Soviet states than there is in the U.S. I don't think it would be a wise move to play monopoly with the U.S.dollar.
On a visit to the Ukraine when shopping in Kiev I could get a 25% discount against the hryvnia marked price at most stores when paying in dollar bills. I also remember seeing long queues of hundreds of people in Moscow at money changing machines, this was when the U.S. changed the series of the dollar bills, these machines ( I believe the only ones in the world )only changed old series notes for new ones.
70 posted on 10/17/2006 3:26:14 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: MarMema

It is all about wine, if Georgia stopped exporting, the "Russian Ruling Classes" would have to drink chemical wine (French)
Georgia, home of the best red wine in the world.


71 posted on 10/17/2006 3:37:04 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: jerryem
I am drinking some right now!! What a coincidence. Muzakani, I think it is called, a dry red.

But yes, I agree. I tasted it first in Georgia in the church and was amazed at how wonderful it is.

Buy Georgian wine! They need our support to stay afloat.

72 posted on 10/17/2006 3:49:26 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: jerryem

You know, don't you, that Russia banned Georgian wine in Russia now?


73 posted on 10/17/2006 3:51:05 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema

Why on earth would the Abkhaz choose Russia over Georgia? ==

It is simple. Because in 1992 Georgians started the ethnic war with Akhazies. They killed and maimed thousands of Akhazies. This blood isn't being forgotten today.
Akhazies returned in kind and expelled all Georgians (and killed many of them too) but always those are guilty who started the war in first place.

DO you conviniently forget the recent history? 1992 isn't far back. I don't speak about more longer history at all. For example about Stalin attached Akhazia to Georgia by tyranical dictate.
It is strange when Georgians comdemns soviet dictatorship but support soviet dictator established borders, isn't it?


74 posted on 10/17/2006 4:30:35 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: MarMema

You know, don't you, that Russia banned Georgian wine in Russia now?==

Russia banned the "fecal mass" instead of wine. Georgian minister Okurashvilli admitted that the quality of those liquid which they exported to Russia is beneath contempt.

When Georgia will ready to export the quality product then Russian will accept it.


75 posted on 10/17/2006 4:34:13 AM PDT by RusIvan ("THINK!" the motto of IBM)
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To: MarMema

>
I am drinking some right now!! What a coincidence. Muzakani, I think it is called, a dry red.

But yes, I agree. I tasted it first in Georgia in the church and was amazed at how wonderful it is.

Buy Georgian wine! They need our support to stay afloat.
>

8))


76 posted on 10/17/2006 5:02:52 AM PDT by Semargl
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To: MarMema
I just read your drinking wine, well whats good for the goose is good for the gander, I did have 7 bottles now I got 6.
A plate of fresh spinach mixed with jalapenos Georgian wine, what do Muslims know about paradise?
77 posted on 10/17/2006 8:35:46 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: MarMema

I just read your drinking wine, well whats good for the goose is good for the gander, I did have 7 bottles now I got 6.
A plate of fresh spinch mixed with jalapineo's Georgian wine, what do Muslims know about paradise?


78 posted on 10/17/2006 8:38:40 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: jerryem

see what happens when your still asleep, do it twouble.


79 posted on 10/17/2006 8:40:29 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: jerryem

Too bad I went to bed. We could have toasted via the internet.


80 posted on 10/17/2006 1:41:04 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: M. Espinola; lizol
Georgian Dies During Deportation From Russia

Other sources have more info but are non-postable here.

81 posted on 10/17/2006 2:06:20 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: jerryem
From your own experience would you say the U.S. Dollar or the Euro is more in circulation in the former Soviet Union?

I don't blame you on the exchange end when buying products, I would have done the same. My previous comments were geared toward the overall Putin strategy in terms of America, which in my opinion is very adverse.

82 posted on 10/17/2006 8:56:12 PM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: MarMema
Thanks for the link on the latest deplorable episode inside Russia.

I reviewed those other news sources, including a portion of the news item below:

"Russia and the United States took a trip down memory lane at the UN Security Council with a frank exchange reminiscent of the Cold War — and all over an empty chair and a shoe, the AFP news agency reports.

US ambassador John Bolton, criticizing North Korea’s ambassador for walking out of the Security Council, referred to an episode when former Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev removed his shoe and thumped a UN desk in 1960.

“It is the contemporary equivalent of Nikita Khrushchev pounding his shoe on the desk of the General Assembly,” Bolton said after ambassador Pak Gil Yon showed his displeasure at just-imposed UN sanctions by leaving the chamber.

Unimpressed, Russian ambassador Vitaly Churkin asked the acting Japanese president of the Security Council to use his influence to ensure that Bolton “even in an emotional state not use inappropriate analogies.”

83 posted on 10/17/2006 9:00:39 PM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: GBA

I think I hear the same tune Stalin played during his hold on Russia. If your going to eliminate the competition do it and do it with finality.


84 posted on 10/17/2006 9:14:15 PM PDT by Doc91678 (Doc91678)
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To: M. Espinola
It is the contemporary equivalent of Nikita Khrushchev pounding his shoe on the desk of the General Assembly

I wish I had been older when that happened. It must have been something. I wonder how many laughed when Bolton said that.

85 posted on 10/17/2006 9:25:47 PM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
Bolton reminds me of when Bibi was Israel's U.N. ambassador. Neither take any guff from adversaries.
86 posted on 10/17/2006 11:57:55 PM PDT by M. Espinola (Freedom is not free)
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To: M. Espinola

Never take the euro,people still don't know what a euro looks like, and as the USD is in most..... the currency of choice? even in Tehran I had trouble changing 50 euro notes, but everybody changed USD.even offering to change more. ( the main problem is that everything is done with cash, and when you have to take 2 suitcases of money to buy a car?) Example..Jugoslavia had a (wait for it) 500,000,000,000 Dinara ( PET STOTINA MILLJARDI DINARA )note that had a value of $3 (three) USD and they still had coins, there a suitcase had more value than the money inside it.


87 posted on 10/18/2006 2:15:52 AM PDT by jerryem (This is my belief,,,you don't like it? OK I have others.)
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To: Donna Lee Nardo

What part of "The Russians killed 100 million in the last century." do you not understand.

Or will you entreat us to Kremlin myths of "Indian Genocide".


88 posted on 10/19/2006 7:01:50 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: GarySpFc

How dare you compare Reagan with the murderer Putin.

And that includes the children his Special Forces thugs killed in Moscow and Beslan.


89 posted on 10/19/2006 7:03:57 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot
What part of "The Russians killed 100 million in the last century." do you not understand.

ROFLOL! Spannie, I see you are still telling the same lies. It was Soviets, which murdered millions, and that included your precious Ukrainians too.
90 posted on 10/19/2006 7:37:24 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Iimmmigration, John 10:1)
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To: spanalot
How dare you compare Reagan with the murderer Putin.

The comparison was made by the president of American University in Moscow, and it was valid. Furthermore, you have not one shred of evidence Putin murdered anyone.

And that includes the children his Special Forces thugs killed in Moscow and Beslan.

This is an evil monstrous lie on your part. Not only did the Russian Spetsnaz not kill anyone, many of them gave their lives to save those children.

Russian Spetsnaz heroes at Beslan.


Alexander Perov, major ("Alpha"), was leading one of the assault teams. In the combat terminated one of the 4-squad terrorists, that do extensive fire at the room with 150 hostages. Personally covered children's evacuation from school. Forestalling the grenade explosion, the officer shielded 3 children by himself. Even with vital wounds he continue to command the team.

Dmitry Razumovskiy, lieutenant colonel ("Vympel"), was leading one of the assault teams, terminated 2 terrorists near the school yard. Revealed masked weapon emplacement that was machine-gunning the running children. Distracting the machine-gunners attention to himself, break through to the emplacement. Had got the vital wound saving the hostages.

Oleg Il'in, lieutenant colonel ("Vympel"), was one of the first into action, terminated 2 terrorist in close combat, suppressed the others in the first phase of operation. Covered the running children and wounded doctor. With missile wound did not turn to the rear, continued to suppress the incoming fire and encounered the second wave of terrorist, trying to escape from school. Sacrificing his life, he covered the hostages and made possible to deploy other teams.

Andrey Turkin, lieutenant ("Vympel"), terminated the terrorist at the school's entrance, and made possible to begin evacuation in room with 250 hostages. The grenade that was rolling to the crowd of hostages he covered by his body.

Vyacheslav Malyarov, major ("Alpha"), cut the extensive fire on children inside the corridor by his body. With vital wounds he continued the combat and wounded 2 terrorists, thus making them run.

Oleg Los'kov, ensign ("Alpha"), with the assualt team encountered the group of terrorists trying to escape with hostages. He wounded one of the terrorists, and shielded the group of hostages.

Andrey Vel'ko, major ("Vympel"), with the assault team was one of the first entering the school. Terminated one of the terrorists and covered the group. Then entered in contact with terrorist, that was moving with the hostages, and killed him. Received a lot of vital wounds during hostages extraction.

Roman Kasatonov, major ("Vympel"), during the siege entered the school and terminated 2 of the terrorists. Found out 2 childrens, and during their evacuation was killed with machine-gun fire.

Michail Kuznetsov, major ("Vympel"), during the special operation was able to evacuate 20 hostages, and was killed during the close combat with 2 terrorists, both were dead by his hand.

Denis Pudovkin, ensign ("Vympel"), terminated one of the terrorist that was firing at running children. Under the heavy fire he was evacuating the wounded. Even with missile wound he continue the job. Shielded the woman from the bullets, and killed another terrorist, but received the vital wounds.

God bless these brave men and their families.

91 posted on 10/19/2006 8:07:58 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Iimmmigration, John 10:1)
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To: spanalot
Back off, Spannie.

You are entitled to your opinion, but go easy in expressing it please.

I highly disagree with your comment in a latter post about Putin (Special Forces) having anything to do with Belslan. I think your comment is irresponsible.

What conspiracy theory floating around makes you think that? If you have proof, offer it up.
92 posted on 10/20/2006 6:41:43 AM PDT by Donna Lee Nardo (DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ANIMAL AND CHILD ABUSERS.)
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Belslan = Beslan


93 posted on 10/20/2006 6:50:15 AM PDT by Donna Lee Nardo (DEATH TO ISLAMIC TERRORISTS AND ANIMAL AND CHILD ABUSERS.)
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To: Donna Lee Nardo

I have no opinion - only the facts that the Russians are so ruthless as to kill thousands and millions for their political and economic gain.


"After months of denials, the prosecutor's office admitted this summer that the Russians had fired powerful shoulder-fired rockets, known as Shmels, at the school. Some families believe the rockets caused or accelerated the blaze, although this is not clear.

Whatever the rockets' actual effect, the bereaved mothers say, their presence demonstrated the government was willing to use indiscriminate force where children were present.

There is similar anger and disbelief over the use of tanks. One witness, Teimuraz Konukov, said that at about 2:30 p.m. he lay behind a tree across the street and watched a Russian tank fire its main barrel into the school's facade. Hostages remained inside at the time.

Prosecutors insist the tank did not fire until evening, after all the hostages had escaped or were dead. Konukov, whose version aligns with what was witnessed by two journalists from The New York Times, is incredulous. "I was right here," he said, pointing to the spot.

No full explanation has been given for the even more extensive tank shooting later in the day that destroyed one of the school's wings.

Nurpasha Kulayev stands in a cage in the courtroom, rarely raising his eyes. Russia claims he is the sole surviving terrorist from the siege; his trial had been expected to bring a deeper understanding of those days. Instead it has become a showcase of contempt for the government.

Families contest even the authorities' most basic claims. The prosecutors, for example, say 32 terrorists seized the school - 30 men with automatic rifles and 2 women wearing suicide bombs. Thirty-one of them died, according to this account. (They are not counted among the 331 victims.) But many survivors and participants insist they saw at least four other men who were captured and have not been seen again, and a third woman. Their faith in the official version has been further undermined because Russia has not publicly identified all the terrorists it says were killed.

The trial's conduct has also perplexed the families. The officers who arrested Kulayev have not testified, but people who knew little of him are regularly on the stand. At a recent hearing the slate of witnesses so frustrated one woman that she stood and loudly scolded the judge.

The trial is only one example of what families here regard as official incompetence and callousness.

A crime-scene video taken the morning after the battle, leaked to the Mothers Committee, shows investigators shoveling ashes among the dead. At one point two men discover a dead girl, and unceremoniously toss her blackened body into a bag.

Families say evidence was lost or mishandled, a conviction that deepened in February when residents found charred items from the school in a local dump. In the mess were human remains: tangles of hair and dried skin.

They also wonder why the school was secured for less than 36 hours after the battle - scant time for forensics work. Instead of serving as a resource for investigators, Kesayev said, the bloody ruins were converted "to a place for pilgrimages and excursions."

The prosecutors have responded by declaring his commission illegal - a declaration of no legal standing, and one that Kesayev said fits a pattern. "Every agency wants to be first in line for their medals," he said. "And last in line to take responsibility for the failures." "


94 posted on 10/20/2006 6:07:47 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: GarySpFc

Let me see - how to prove that Russians have no regard for their own children?

I suppose if they fired weapons of multiple destruction on the school, that would suffice - right Freepers?




"After months of denials, the prosecutor's office admitted this summer that the Russians had fired powerful shoulder-fired rockets, known as Shmels, at the school. Some families believe the rockets caused or accelerated the blaze, although this is not clear.

Whatever the rockets' actual effect, the bereaved mothers say, their presence demonstrated the government was willing to use indiscriminate force where children were present.

There is similar anger and disbelief over the use of tanks. One witness, Teimuraz Konukov, said that at about 2:30 p.m. he lay behind a tree across the street and watched a Russian tank fire its main barrel into the school's facade. Hostages remained inside at the time.

Prosecutors insist the tank did not fire until evening, after all the hostages had escaped or were dead. Konukov, whose version aligns with what was witnessed by two journalists from The New York Times, is incredulous. "I was right here," he said, pointing to the spot.

No full explanation has been given for the even more extensive tank shooting later in the day that destroyed one of the school's wings.

Nurpasha Kulayev stands in a cage in the courtroom, rarely raising his eyes. Russia claims he is the sole surviving terrorist from the siege; his trial had been expected to bring a deeper understanding of those days. Instead it has become a showcase of contempt for the government.

Families contest even the authorities' most basic claims. The prosecutors, for example, say 32 terrorists seized the school - 30 men with automatic rifles and 2 women wearing suicide bombs. Thirty-one of them died, according to this account. (They are not counted among the 331 victims.) But many survivors and participants insist they saw at least four other men who were captured and have not been seen again, and a third woman. Their faith in the official version has been further undermined because Russia has not publicly identified all the terrorists it says were killed.

The trial's conduct has also perplexed the families. The officers who arrested Kulayev have not testified, but people who knew little of him are regularly on the stand. At a recent hearing the slate of witnesses so frustrated one woman that she stood and loudly scolded the judge.

The trial is only one example of what families here regard as official incompetence and callousness.

A crime-scene video taken the morning after the battle, leaked to the Mothers Committee, shows investigators shoveling ashes among the dead. At one point two men discover a dead girl, and unceremoniously toss her blackened body into a bag.

Families say evidence was lost or mishandled, a conviction that deepened in February when residents found charred items from the school in a local dump. In the mess were human remains: tangles of hair and dried skin.

They also wonder why the school was secured for less than 36 hours after the battle - scant time for forensics work. Instead of serving as a resource for investigators, Kesayev said, the bloody ruins were converted "to a place for pilgrimages and excursions."

The prosecutors have responded by declaring his commission illegal - a declaration of no legal standing, and one that Kesayev said fits a pattern. "Every agency wants to be first in line for their medals," he said. "And last in line to take responsibility for the failures." "





95 posted on 10/20/2006 6:17:26 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Donna Lee Nardo

"Not even Putin wants to revive Communist Ideology"


\\\ Not a surprise. No Russian leader since Stalin really actually believed in the Communist "ideology": it merely served as an effective tool to brainwash their citizens with and they ALL were smart enough to know it. When the Soviet System and their hegemony over the Soviet "bloc" collapsed, that was the official death knell of the so-called "ideology". Russia now is finding it more exciting and inviting apparently to keep its options open and ally itself with whoever can do it the most good. It is not very often the USA or the West.


96 posted on 10/20/2006 6:36:00 PM PDT by supremedoctrine ("Talent hits targets no one else can hit, but genius hits targets no one else can see"--Schopenhauer)
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To: Nikolay Lee Sea Cin

I have a hunch your name is a code for something, but I can't figure out what. Say it five times fast and it means......?


97 posted on 10/20/2006 6:55:12 PM PDT by supremedoctrine ("Talent hits targets no one else can hit, but genius hits targets no one else can see"--Schopenhauer)
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To: jerryem

Georgia, home of the best red wine.......


I am a wine lover, completely unaware of Russian wine. Give me some names, please! Is it distributed here in the USA??


98 posted on 10/20/2006 7:02:41 PM PDT by supremedoctrine ("Talent hits targets no one else can hit, but genius hits targets no one else can see"--Schopenhauer)
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To: Donna Lee Nardo; spanalot
Donna,

I served on a Special Forces A-Team for many years duing the Sixties, and so I am familiar with their tactics. Fortunately, we have an American former Special Forces officer, John Gudick, who was on the scene to report accurately what happened. Gudick wrote his book, Terror at Beslan: A Russian Tragedy with Lessons for America's Schools. Gudick is fluent in Russian and very familiar with Spetsnaz tactics. I will include an excerpt from the book, which will show the character of the men involved, and later post my comments regarding the remarks Spanalot made.

The Assault Day Three

Dear God, where do we get such men?
What loving God has provided,
that each generation, afresh,
there should arise new giants in the land.
Were we to go but a single generation
without such men, we should surely
be both damned and doomed.
- Anonymous military officer as quoted by
Lt. Col. Dave Grossman, On Combat


Morning dawned on the third day with little change in the situation. Bright sunshine basked the members of the Special Forces in a gentle glow. The air was cool, the sun warm. "It does not seem right:” they thought, "that such ugliness could be unraveling on so glorious a morning." It was a morning that would have served as a reaffirmation of the existence of God, but for the evil inside the building before them.

As was becoming commonplace, the terrorists - under the influence of their morning doses of narcotics - began shooting out of the school windows at the surrounding soldiers. No one was immune. Even local police and citizens were shot at anytime one of them showed his head round a corner or over a vehicle. The government forces extended their outer perimeter, attempting to move everyone back another hundred yards in some places. By this point the townspeople were demanding something be done, to save the people inside. No one - it seemed - could take much more. The terrorists, despite the failing physical state of the children, continued to refuse food, water and medicine. The sun, so gentle to those outside, would shortly return the gym to its greenhouse-like state. The heat was unbearable; and intolerable humidity rose off the bodies of those packed inside. The stench was unbearable.

At approximately 12:50 that afternoon the terrorists agreed to allow the command post to send four representatives of MChS, the federal emergency services department, to remove some of the bodies inside the school, as well as those that had been lying in a twisted heap in the west yard, below the second story window from which they were flung more than a day before. These were the rotting corpses of the many men and boys they had murdered, some of which were still stacked inside the school on the second floor. The deal was that the terrorists would drop the remainder of the bodies into the western yard, from which MChS personnel would remove them. Despite the courage necessary to walk out into the open, into the crosshairs of the killers, the MChS high command was inundated with volunteers. Still, they had to be careful; the terrorists had unobstructed views of the yard and could shoot all who entered beneath them. There was no door along that entire side of the building. One van carrying the MChS members - all from its "Leader" special response group - entered the fenced yard on the west side of the school along the railroad tracks. As agreed, they were unarmed and wearing the clearly identifiable blue and orange uniforms of their agency. None of them wore body armor. They exited the vehicle and prepared to remove the bodies thrown from the second story windows. News accounts that the terrorists sent an observer into the yard during this body recovery effort are incorrect. The school’s western side was almost a football field long, and there was no way in or out of the building from there. All of the first floor windows were heavily barricaded. To place an observer in the fenced yard with MChS men, one of the terrorists would have had to walk out the heavily barricaded main entrance on the north side and proceed thirty feet to the opening in the fence. A long way under the hundreds of troops and berserk citizens. Unlike the men MChS special unit, the terrorists were not that brave. This barricade was never removed, however. Not even during the assault. On September 4, long after the dust had settled and the smell of gunpowder cleared from the air, the door remained completely fortified. The next closet exit point by which the terrorists could have sent an observer was more than a dozen yards away. The terrorists guns trained downward, simply watched the MChS men from the upstairs windows.

At 1:05 p.m. witnesses said the terrorists began pushing more bodies out of the windows to the men below. According to one of the MChS men, just as the first body was loaded into the truck, there was an explosion. Seven seconds later it was followed by another. Everyone in the yard froze. The terrorists at the windows even seemed startled. They didn't know what had caused the bombs to go off, but appeared to believe that they had been duped. It was clear that they quickly concluded the government had used the retrieval of the bodies as a diversion to begin its assault. From their vantage point in the upstairs western windows, the terrorists were a long way from the gym - at least 45 yards - and on the wrong floor. They could not possibly know what was happening there. Some raced out of the classroom they were in and across the eight foot wide upstairs hallway to look out the windows down at the gym. Later reports from hostages in the gym would conflict as to the cause of the explosions. Those who seemed to be looking in one direction, say one of the bombs simply fell from the basketball backboard and detonated an accident. Others insist one of the terrorist's feet slipped from the pedal detonator he was standing on. It is most probable that the falling bomb caused the other terrorist's foot to slip off of his device, resulting in the two explosions in rapid succession heard by a crowd of people that had feared this moment - feared it every minute - for two days. Whatever the cause, it started a chain reaction of events.

Hostages began panicking, leaping out of the windows decimated by the blast. Some had been blown clean through the windows on both sides of the gym. They streamed out into both the southern and northern courtyards, as terrorists began to shoot them. The terrorists who had been watching the MChS men, and who had then moved to the windows on the other side of the building overlooking the courtyard and the gym, started shooting into the mass of hostages racing for freedom, and life. They had what, in military terms, are called clear fields of fire and open kill zones. Everything below them was a target; they could shoot indiscriminately. Some of the fleeing children stopped once they were a few meters from the gym, confused and believing that once outside they were safe. They A mowed down with ease. Others, escaping out of west side wind ran toward the small emerald-painted single story classroom to north. Haggard from thirst, they stopped at an outdoor faucet quench the thirst that had tortured them for two days. They, made easy targets and died gulping life sustaining water. Some of terrorists on that west side of the second floor also began shooting down at the MChS men. Of the four, one was killed and another wounded before they could be withdrawn. At one point one of terrorists leapt from the west side second story window, landing in the fenced yard. He is believed to have escaped in the melee.

When the explosions occurred that incited panic among the hostages and the assault by government troops, the terrorists' reaction exacerbated by the conflict that had already been ongoing among them. The mercenary group used this opportunity - and the resulting chaos - to attempt to escape, while the rest sought the honor dying for Allah, taking as many of the hated infidels with then they could. The fact that the hostages who were left - after the heinous executions of the men - were mostly horror stricken child whose lives would be forever destroyed, and sobbing women, m; wretched by the days of torture and abuse, did not matter. They should all die.

The Russian Spetsnaz units were reported to have opened fire immediately. Certainly, the Rus and Alpha snipers began taking out any terrorist who showed his head in a window. But assaulting the build: was another matter. One of the great axioms of war is that no plan survives first contact with the enemy. But with no one in comma and government officials paralyzed by the unexpected turn of events the commandos were left with no orders. The civilians in the crowd, however, suffered from no such affliction. Hundreds of angst-ridden fathers, uncles, grandfathers, brothers and friends, as well as many local police and security, engaged in panic fire, fueled by three days sleepless, gut wrenching fear over the plight of their loved ones and neighbors. One general on scene was reported as having fretted that all these people merely "got in the way."

Within 30 minutes the four Mi 8/MT "Hip" helicopters, split between the distant vodka factory near the Terek River and the Vladikavkaz airport some eight miles away, were in the air. But with no teams in them to be inserted into the school or onto other areas of the roof, their pilots could only watch, impotent to use their mighty cannons or the rockets that hung ominously from their sides. The most they could do was attempt to direct fire at the school building, but in the roiling mass of people below, even this was fruitless. BTR 80s, Russian armored personnel carriers, maneuvered toward the north courtyard. The southern courtyard, too narrow for the bulky tank-like vehicles to negotiate, was left to the men of Alpha and Vympel to move through on foot, with no cover. Valeriy Andreyev, the FSB spokesman, was quoted as saying, "To save their lives, we retaliated." This statement would attach a level of organization and purpose to the government's plan that was scarcely justified.

In ten short minutes the interior of the gym ceiling fell in, a burning kaleidoscope raining timber, metal, glass and fire down on the helpless victims. It took but a few more minutes for the fire to burn in earnest, and the rest of the roof - the outside structural part - to collapse. Many were struck and killed, others trapped or buried alive, burning to death amid the heart wrenching screams of almost a thousand other souls. Outside, the Spetsnaz units of Alpha and Vympel held off entering the building, continuing to wait for orders. When all of this happened it was mostly Vympel that was on duty at the school. The rest of Alpha - those not on stand-down - were 18 miles away training at the building in Vladikavkaz. It took them until 1:50 p.m. to receive word of the events, leap into transports and arrive back at the school. Men from both of those units not on the perimeter when the fighting began grabbed the nearest weapon and raced to the school. With the sounds of combat erupting all about them, and the screams of dying children in their ears, most did not take time to retrieve body armor or helmets.

It was 1:40 p.m. before Vympel began to assault the school, but seemingly not according to any real plan. They merely reacted to events as best they could, drawing on every bit of training and experience they possessed. Those already on station attempted to move quickly to their previously assigned assault positions. Once joined by backup, the forward Vympel teams began working feverish untangle the intricate and delicate web of wires set to detonate explosives at the doors to the school. They had no success at the eastern door of the south wing. Eventually Vympel had a tank had been on station to the west move up. This monstrous clan vehicle had been brought in under the order of FSB General Sot the same man who authorized the two BTR 80 armored personal carriers that had been standing by. Vympel team leaders h; approach the entrance to the narrow alleyway from the west. Taking the best position it could for an angled shot, it fired a non-exploding shell into the doorway just inside the alley, blowing a hole more sufficient for the teams to enter. The shell, however, did not there but took out several interior brick walls separating classrooms on the south side of that wing. It was a risk for any hostages inside that section of the building, but the commandos had no choice. Those inside were going to die anyway if they didn't get inside building quickly.

Under a hailstorm of bullets from the south side second windows, Vympel raced along the south wall and through the newly opened door on the main floor, just inside of which was a stair leading to both the second floor and basement. The gaping hole resulted was proof that they were prepared to bring to bear maximum violence against anyone and anything in their way. The Vympel troops succeeded in entering from the south, the court to the north remained awash in a hailstorm of bullets, from both volunteers and terrorists. Nothing could move, and many escaping hostages were shot down in the few yards they had left to cross, many dying within scant feet of loved ones and safety. Many of the Special Forces men I met with said that everyone realized this was no longer a military operation; they were just trying to rescue children.
99 posted on 10/20/2006 8:36:51 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Donna Lee Nardo; spanalot
Spanalot sez: I have no opinion - only the facts that the Russians are so ruthless as to kill thousands and millions for their political and economic gain.

I will prove Spanalot has more than an opinion, and the harsh reality is he lies about Russia in almost every post on Free Republic.

"After months of denials, the prosecutor's office admitted this summer that the Russians had fired powerful shoulder-fired rockets, known as Shmels, at the school. Some families believe the rockets caused or accelerated the blaze, although this is not clear.

The report, quoted by the Interfax news agency, concluded that grenade launchers, flamethrowers and tank fire were used during the storming of the school.
For weeks after the siege Russian officials had denied the use of flamethrowers.
Some of the bereaved parents say flamethrowers were used while hostages were still in the school.

This is the typical blame game. What actually happened is the terrorists had a 152MM round attached to a basketball goal. It fell and set off an explosion, and now the Spetsnaz are being blamed. Additionally, some of the grieving parents rushed to the scene and shot the Spetsnaz in the back, when they mistook them for terrorists.

The reason the army is being blamed is because a bumblebee was used. The Spetsnaz Bumblebee is NOT a flamethrower, but more like a bazooka, with several types of rounds, including percussion and one similar to a fuel air bomb. During a raid a percussion round or grenade is fired into a room to disorient the terrorists, while the Spetsnaz gain entry. Another type of round creates smoke for the purpose of providing cover. In this case it would have provided cover for both the fleeing children and the Spetsnaz. If the fuel air round was fired it would have sucked all of the air out of the area, and fires don't burn without air. When the explosion from the 152MM round went off the Spetsnaz likely set off a Bumblebee percussion round to further distract the terrorists, and gain entry for the Spetsnaz, and now the parents want to blame the government, and so naturally the Bumblebee did it. Never mind that the 152mm shell leveled the building and set it on fire. It's just like America, either Bush or Putin are to blame.

Whatever the rockets' actual effect, the bereaved mothers say, their presence demonstrated the government was willing to use indiscriminate force where children were present.

The 152mm round used by the terrorists, which set off the events will level a large size building. The use of the Bumblebee to disorient and distract the terrorists was well within the minimum force needed, and would not have set off the fires.

There is similar anger and disbelief over the use of tanks. One witness, Teimuraz Konukov, said that at about 2:30 p.m. he lay behind a tree across the street and watched a Russian tank fire its main barrel into the school's facade. Hostages remained inside at the time.

The doors of the school were booby-trapped, and the tank fired a round to create an opening so the Spetsnaz teams could enter the school. It was a nonexploding shell, which did penetrate several walls, but it was needed to effect a swift entry into the school. Likewise, this round would not have set off a fire.

Prosecutors insist the tank did not fire until evening, after all the hostages had escaped or were dead. Konukov, whose version aligns with what was witnessed by two journalists from The New York Times, is incredulous. "I was right here," he said, pointing to the spot.

Something is wrong with the translation or testimony, because the tank fired earlier to effect an entry by the Spetsnaz.

No full explanation has been given for the even more extensive tank shooting later in the day that destroyed one of the school's wings.

It wasn't tank fire later in the evening. I quote Gudick:

"At 8:00 o'clock in the evening, Spetsnaz of the FSB's Vympel and Alpha units conducted a final "special operation" assault when they located the last hiding place of the terrorists and "engaged to destroy them," according to one of the soldiers. A number of terrorists, including one known 17 year old, had fled to the fortified shop class in the south side wing, and in the attic above that. Whatever limitations the commandos had imposed themselves up to this point were gone. Deploying their own RPGs and RPO "fire throwers" recoilless rifles that deliver a high yield missile - they simply blasted that entire wing of the school into rubble. Nothing was left of either floor but a large gaping hole, lending to the overall appearance of the Beruit-type destruction the town suffered in this clash of religious intolerance and hatred."

Nurpasha Kulayev stands in a cage in the courtroom, rarely raising his eyes. Russia claims he is the sole surviving terrorist from the siege; his trial had been expected to bring a deeper understanding of those days. Instead it has become a showcase of contempt for the government.

Families contest even the authorities' most basic claims. The prosecutors, for example, say 32 terrorists seized the school - 30 men with automatic rifles and 2 women wearing suicide bombs. Thirty-one of them died, according to this account. (They are not counted among the 331 victims.) But many survivors and participants insist they saw at least four other men who were captured and have not been seen again, and a third woman. Their faith in the official version has been further undermined because Russia has not publicly identified all the terrorists it says were killed.

The grieving of the parents is fully understandable, and likewise they want to blame someone. However, they were held back at a distance and unable to view all of the events which transpired. Furthermore, they were not professionals, and unable to accurately interpret the sounds and actions which transpired.
Gudick clearly states some of the terrorists did escape. Indeed, two escaped, were captured by the civilians are ripped to shreds. Thirteen escaped and were tracked down and killed by the Spetsnaz. One schoolgirl reported being carried on a stretcher by two men, and one was a hostage.

The trial's conduct has also perplexed the families. The officers who arrested Kulayev have not testified, but people who knew little of him are regularly on the stand. At a recent hearing the slate of witnesses so frustrated one woman that she stood and loudly scolded the judge.

The trial is only one example of what families here regard as official incompetence and callousness.

The Spetsnaz officers and men will not testify at any trial. Their tactics need to be kept secret for future actions. The same thing would happen in this country if our top anti-terrorist group was used.

A crime-scene video taken the morning after the battle, leaked to the Mothers Committee, shows investigators shoveling ashes among the dead. At one point two men discover a dead girl, and unceremoniously toss her blackened body into a bag.

The same thing could be said about events in New York.

Families say evidence was lost or mishandled, a conviction that deepened in February when residents found charred items from the school in a local dump. In the mess were human remains: tangles of hair and dried skin.

They also wonder why the school was secured for less than 36 hours after the battle - scant time for forensics work. Instead of serving as a resource for investigators, Kesayev said, the bloody ruins were converted "to a place for pilgrimages and excursions."

This was a military operation and a crime scene. However, the majority of the men involved were military, with little experience in police work. The forensics work involved would be far too involved for the local police. Let's not forget the Russians were in a state of shock in trying to deal with Beslan.
100 posted on 10/20/2006 10:00:49 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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