Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Would Defeat in Iraq Be So Bad?
Times.com ^ | 10/15/06 | Leslie Gelb

Posted on 10/16/2006 9:58:48 AM PDT by World_Events

To me, the relentless mud slide of insurgency and civil war in Iraq is leading to unacceptable strategic disaster for the U.S. There appear to be no viable paths to follow in order to avoid it. Neither "staying the course"--whatever that Bush strategy now means--nor the Democrats' idea of exiting by timetables offers a semblance of success. Both approaches produce only nightmares: general chaos; Iraq's center taken over by terrorists emboldened by victory over America, their pockets bulging with Iraqi oil money; southern Iraq controlled by pro-Iranians or Iran itself; and Iraq's neighbors picking at the nation's carcass until regional war erupts and prompts oil prices to hit $150 a barrel.

But while those fears have a real hold on me, I can't help transporting myself back more than 30 years to that day in Vietnam when I felt certain the dominoes would fall throughout Asia and destroy America's strategic position there and elsewhere. I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.

It was April 28, 1975. The last U.S. officials scrambled aboard helicopters, bound for home, heralding defeat as North Vietnamese troops tramped into the South Vietnamese capital. And it was the most ignominious kind of defeat, one that came after a decades-long war, after tens of thousands of Americans and Vietnamese had been killed, after our Presidents had pledged it would never come to that.

We expected China and the Soviet Union would be ascendant, that allies like Japan and South Korea would doubt our resolve and reposition themselves, and that North Vietnam would claim the rest of Indochina. Almost none of that happened.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: appeaseniks; cutandrun; defeaticrats; lesliegelb; subversives
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-112 next last

1 posted on 10/16/2006 9:58:49 AM PDT by World_Events
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Dear Leslie,

Would your losing your job be so bad?


2 posted on 10/16/2006 10:00:30 AM PDT by Hazcat (Live to party, work to afford it.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Wouldn't be so bad if we lost it somewhere off planet i guess.


3 posted on 10/16/2006 10:01:09 AM PDT by Khepera (Do not remove by penalty of law!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Hazcat

Dear Leslie: YOU are a loser, so losing seems OK to you. Not everyone shares your wussiness.


4 posted on 10/16/2006 10:01:35 AM PDT by 3AngelaD
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

This is why sane people do not entrust Rats and other leftists with national security or foreign policy.


5 posted on 10/16/2006 10:02:50 AM PDT by kesg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
"Would Defeat in Iraq Be So Bad?"

Yes, it would. Iraq would become the rally cry for the mooslems. The Islamos would know we are P@ssies and come after us like never before. This is a war of civilizations and if we lose in Iraq, the EU and USA will be the next target.
6 posted on 10/16/2006 10:03:13 AM PDT by MPJackal ("If you are not with us, you are against us.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Another moron pretending to be thoughtful. A chimp in a three-piece suit.


7 posted on 10/16/2006 10:03:30 AM PDT by samtheman (The Democrats are Instituting their own Guest Voter Program.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Sounds like.............cut-n-run.


8 posted on 10/16/2006 10:03:50 AM PDT by shankbear (Al-Qaeda grew while Monica blew)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
The fight in Iraq is no longer about fighting the Salafists Jihadi movement, they are dying out. The battle for Iraq is now about the Shia Jihadi movement which has been at war with the US since 1979.
9 posted on 10/16/2006 10:04:03 AM PDT by Perdogg (Democratic Party - The political wing of Al Qaida)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

http://www.cfr.org/bios/3325/


10 posted on 10/16/2006 10:05:13 AM PDT by Perdogg (Democratic Party - The political wing of Al Qaida)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
But while those fears have a real hold on me, I can't help transporting myself back more than 30 years to that day in Vietnam when I felt certain the dominoes would fall throughout Asia and destroy America's strategic position there and elsewhere. I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.

I suppose that technically this is true, but jeez, not so much as one word about Cambodia? It's pretty disgraceful to just pretend that that little incident never really happened.

11 posted on 10/16/2006 10:06:05 AM PDT by jpl (Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

To gelb the "gobbler",

WOULD A ***DAMN A-BOMB BLOWING YOUR SORRY ASS UP, ALONG WITH THOSE OF YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS AND AN AMERICAN CITY, BE SO BAD?... YOU leftist, POS, dumb-a$$ed, hildebeast butt kissing, bent-one fondling, puke-a$$ed dim!

LLS


12 posted on 10/16/2006 10:07:29 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Leslie, you ignorant slut:


13 posted on 10/16/2006 10:07:44 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (This is no time for bleeding hearts, pacifists, and appeasers to prevail in free world opinion.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
This is a trial balloon for the defeatocrats, IMHO. Does anyone else remember seeing a San Francisco city councilman on Hannity & Colmes call for the abolition of the US military? That is the true face of the defeatocrats, but they know it doesn't sell in middle America.
14 posted on 10/16/2006 10:09:24 AM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Second to none!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: jpl

Heck, has John Kerry even been asked the question: How come you were so wrong about how the Communists treated the people of South Vietnam after they took over? Liberals ignore the consequences of their actions. I guess their attitude is that the "gooks" had it coming?


15 posted on 10/16/2006 10:09:51 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: All

and then there was the democrat that tried to swim the Mississippi....she swam all the way across, got 4 feet from shore and decided it was too tough....so she swam back.


16 posted on 10/16/2006 10:10:04 AM PDT by texan75010 (Future NFL Dad - http://mysite.verizon.net/luker33/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
What happened to our enemies in WWII after we won?

They became strong allies. It just took time. Japan was very similar in that they were xenophobic, inclined to aggression and treated prisoners with barbarity. Today they are a great trding partner and pose no threat to world peace. The transition for Japan took 30+ years, why is Irag supposed to be done before the shooting stops?
17 posted on 10/16/2006 10:11:56 AM PDT by wmfights (Psalm : 27)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Right, I mean only a couple of million innocent people died, and only couple million more fled into exile in rickety boats, and only a few score million were ground under a commie boot for a few decades. But most importantly, Dems won the White House! So it worked, see.
18 posted on 10/16/2006 10:12:29 AM PDT by JasonC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Would Defeat in Iraq Be So Bad?

After Vietnam, the dominoes did not fall. What that tells us about this war

No dominoes fell after Vietnam but several million Southeast Asians fell when they were murdered by communists.

That's a fact that Gelb and the looney left don't want to talk about.

19 posted on 10/16/2006 10:13:24 AM PDT by jazusamo (DIANA IREY for Congress, PA 12th District: Retire murtha.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Dear Leslie:

The United States military never loses. Never.

Wimp politicians and an anti-American media may force us into a stalemate, but the US armed forces do not lose. You can hear it in the habitual vocabulary of our officers.

Once again, the US military does NOT lose.

Educationally yours,

EyeGuy


20 posted on 10/16/2006 10:13:34 AM PDT by EyeGuy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Soon after our loss in Vietnam we elected the Defeatocrat Carter who wouldn't put up much of a fight when the Iranians took over our embassy (an act of war). That act of post-Vietnam pacifism is the foundation for what the 21st century will look like.

The Jihad was emboldened by our lack of action against Iran in 1979, by our fleeing Lebanon and Somalia after attacks, and by our feckless response to various acts of terrorism over the past few decades. It took 9/11 to wake us up to the Jihad. Leslie Gelb is telling us to go back to sleep.

21 posted on 10/16/2006 10:17:25 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (I fear that we are the RINOs. The real Republican party is the big government Dem-lite party.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Staying the course is looking like a lousy idea with each day that passes. I was never crazy about Bush in the first place---but compared to what the Dems were offering for the entre--had no choice (actually I had a choice, I voted libertarian because it doesn't matter a rat's behind in NY). This neo-con world view is definitely not working. I am not a pacifist, I really don't care what the French think or feel, they should really re-locate the UN to Vanuatu--actually Papua New Guinea or the Falklands sounds even better.....but are American interests being served in the long term? This is not an episode of WWF or the silly game they had when I was a kid Rock Em Sock Em Robots. Too many of our kids are really getting killed for no purpose--I hate to say that because of the sacrifice made by these young guys and gals. My problem is not with the military. In fact, the military has been very critical from the beginning of the way the war has been handled. Their hands are tied, they can only do what the Commander in chief and his advisers want. We need to salvage whatever we can and get out ASAP of Iraq. Maybe we can retreat to Kurdistan--they're the only folks that seem to want us around. Face it, we are in there for oil. I usually would wince when I hear this from the lefties screaming about Halliburton and the Bushies oil ties. They would scream about that no matter what because they are anti-capitalist to begin with. It really doesn't matter what the facts are. Oil is getting scarcer especially with China and India becoming more industrialized...so we go to war to secure an oil source? The Republican party needs to dump the neo-cons!


22 posted on 10/16/2006 10:17:57 AM PDT by brooklyn dave (Dhimmis better not be Dhummis!!!!------or else!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Defeat in Iraq is not an option.

Period.


23 posted on 10/16/2006 10:18:04 AM PDT by roaddog727 (BullS##t does not get bridges built)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Would Defeat in Iraq Be So Bad?

Not just bad, but bad beyond our worst nightmares. If the terrorists were able to plan an execute 9/11 with few hundred thousands dollars and from their caves in Afghanistan, imagine what they can do if we leave Iraq and let them control such an important country that is strategically located in the heart of the Middle East and has huge resources of oil.

24 posted on 10/16/2006 10:18:44 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Another writer who doesn't understand the Cold War. Viet Nam was one battle we lost. But the war was fought on many fronts, on every continent. Losing Viet Nam emboldened the enemy, but Reagan happened. We pushed back, in the Americas, in Africa, in Central Asia, in Europe itself.

So we eventually did win, but no thanks to the folks who brought us defeat in Viet Nam. The folks who stood against us in Viet Nam also stood against us in every other conflict, Salvador, Nicaragua, Angola, the missiles in Europe, on and on. We won in spite of them. And they are precisely the same folks who handed us defeat in Somalia, who claimed we couldn't win in Afghanistan (until after we won) and who opposed us every step of the way in Iraq. If we are defeated in Iraq, it does not mean, automatically, ultimate defeat. But if down the road we manage to achieve victory against muslim terrorism, it will be in spite of the DNC.

It will be in spite of the very people who will bring us to defeat in Iraq.

History repeats itself because the nature of the DNC has not changed in essence since the Cold War, it has only become more concentrated and toxic.

The writer wants us to believe that defeat is not that bad, because after Viet Nam we ultimately won. But we ultimately won by overcoming the defeatists among us. Had we overcome them sooner, 3 million indochinese would not be dead, their bones standing in piles all over southeast asia.


25 posted on 10/16/2006 10:19:25 AM PDT by marron
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Probably about the same as abandoning the South Vietnamese.


26 posted on 10/16/2006 10:19:41 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Dear Leslie,

are you French? Because you sure ARE a SURRENDER MONKEY!


27 posted on 10/16/2006 10:20:04 AM PDT by LC HOGHEAD (“Oderint dum metuant”,........... “let them hate, as long as they fear”)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: wmfights

Because world peace and prosperity must be achieved before Sports Center comes on.


28 posted on 10/16/2006 10:20:57 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
How many millions more dead people in Vietnam, Cambodian, and Laos would it have taken to convince Leslie Gelb that the US losing in Vietnam was a bad thing? Oh, that's right, it was OK because the "dominoes didn't fall" - I'm sure that would come as a relief to the millions tortured and killed by the Communists in the years after 1975.
29 posted on 10/16/2006 10:21:06 AM PDT by andy58-in-nh (Multiculturalism: conceived by Western elites not to celebrate all cultures but to deny their own.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: brooklyn dave

"The Republican party needs to dump the neo-cons!"

Yes, so Nancy Pelosi can be your speaker....Hillary can be your President....and you can continue to get butt buggered...


30 posted on 10/16/2006 10:21:26 AM PDT by texan75010 (Future NFL Dad - http://mysite.verizon.net/luker33/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: MPJackal

Eu is already a target.


31 posted on 10/16/2006 10:21:33 AM PDT by brooklyn dave (Dhimmis better not be Dhummis!!!!------or else!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Effing dope.

Pulling out of Vietnam the way we did taught our enemys how to defeat us. and they are trying to use the SAME techniques today.

Thanks to fools like this helping the enemy, though Kerry is probably the king of traitors.

I only hope America can hold it's resolve, I believe it will.


32 posted on 10/16/2006 10:22:13 AM PDT by Names Ash Housewares
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

"I can't help transporting myself back more than 30 years to that day in Vietnam..."


Had he been with the MIDWAY battle group that day, he would have seen people literally dying in front him for their freedom. Maybe he would have chosen another career besides mealy-mouthed hack.


33 posted on 10/16/2006 10:22:35 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....when the sidewalks are safe for the little guy.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: samtheman

Did you ever hear these primates offering exit strategies or defeatist comments in Kosovo or Haiti. There are still troops in Kosovo and Haiti has reverted to a hell hole that is worse than Baghdad. Ask him about those two.


34 posted on 10/16/2006 10:23:50 AM PDT by Thebaddog (Labrador Retrievers are the dog's dog)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Not bad...catastrophic
35 posted on 10/16/2006 10:24:02 AM PDT by meandog (While Bush will never fill them, Clinton isn't fit to even lick the soles of Reagan's shoes!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

Send this article to Leslie. You might want to read it too, World_Events. :) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1720292/posts


36 posted on 10/16/2006 10:24:11 AM PDT by Chena ("I'm not young enough to know everything." (Oscar Wilde))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: brooklyn dave
True. I suppose you could say we are as well. But if we lose in Iraq the will have far more time, resources, and support to accomplish a successful attack against us and the EU.
37 posted on 10/16/2006 10:24:16 AM PDT by MPJackal ("If you are not with us, you are against us.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: World_Events

I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.



Hmm, tell that to the Cambodians in the "killing fields'. Tell that to the South Vietnamese, and Laotians people that helped the US, then were murdered in droves. Tell that to the Burmese that currently live in the worst of the worst tin-pot dictatorships.

Wow, this gal is completely ignorant of history.


38 posted on 10/16/2006 10:24:41 AM PDT by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascists, now ACT LIKE IT!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: texan75010

I feel America getting screwed either way Democrats or neo-cons.


39 posted on 10/16/2006 10:24:50 AM PDT by brooklyn dave (Dhimmis better not be Dhummis!!!!------or else!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: Howlin; Ed_NYC; MonroeDNA; widgysoft; Springman; Timesink; dubyaismypresident; Grani; coug97; ...
Unbelievable...

Just damn.

If you want on the list, FReepmail me. This IS a high-volume PING list...

40 posted on 10/16/2006 10:25:35 AM PDT by mhking (I make my livin' on the evening news....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: SFC Chromey

And the Afghanis, who were the next target of communist aggression.


41 posted on 10/16/2006 10:25:45 AM PDT by dirtboy (Good fences make good neighbors)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: Perdogg

I call him 'gal' for a reason. He is nothing but a panty-waist globalist.


42 posted on 10/16/2006 10:25:52 AM PDT by SFC Chromey (We are at war with Islamofascists, now ACT LIKE IT!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
I was wrong about those dominoes, as were almost all foreign-policy experts.

Tell that to the two million that perished in the Cambodian Killing Fields.

43 posted on 10/16/2006 10:26:45 AM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: World_Events
Would Defeat for al Qaeda in Iraq Be So Bad?

If you're the media....YES.

44 posted on 10/16/2006 10:27:49 AM PDT by Allegra (Super Elastic Bubble Plastic!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Dear Leslie. Your leader?:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

45 posted on 10/16/2006 10:28:10 AM PDT by b4its2late (I'm not insensitive, I just don't care.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: roaddog727
Defeat in Iraq is not an option.

There's plenty of tough talk on this thread. We don't need tough talk. We need ideas on how to win. "Stay the course" ain't working. If we can't come up with something better than that, eventually the cut-and-run crowd is going to get their way.

Many Americans either don't see the downside in leaving Iraq in the state it's in now, or they don't care about the consequences. They'd be happy to leave tomorrow, and to hell with the results. The left's plan of retreat may be dumb, but it's a plan. Without new strategies on how to win, we're eventually going to lose moderate and Republican support for the war entirely.

So, defeat is certainly an option, because left wants it, and the center and right are losing their will to fight. Rallying them will frankly require better leadership and better military thinking that what we've gotten so far.

46 posted on 10/16/2006 10:28:11 AM PDT by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: brooklyn dave

Staying the course in Iraq is the only strategy for victory, all other strategies are cut and run and hence defeat, it is as simple as that.


47 posted on 10/16/2006 10:31:20 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: kesg
This is why sane people do not entrust Rats and other leftists with national security or foreign policy.

Yes and they just keep confirming it.  Democrats cannot be trusted with our security..EVER.

48 posted on 10/16/2006 10:31:49 AM PDT by 1035rep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: brooklyn dave

The terms neo con is only used by liberals, third party voters and Buchananites, all those are very bad with liberals being the worst, which category do you fit in?


49 posted on 10/16/2006 10:32:38 AM PDT by jveritas (Support The Commander in Chief in Times of War)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: LibLieSlayer

What you said.


50 posted on 10/16/2006 10:33:00 AM PDT by 1035rep
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-112 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson