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Is God dead? Atheism finds a market in U.S
Reuters ^ | 10/18/06 | Michael Conlon

Posted on 10/18/2006 5:25:05 PM PDT by wagglebee

CHICAGO (Reuters) - A fresh wave of atheistic books has hit the market this autumn, some climbing onto best-seller lists in what proponents see as a backlash against the way religion is entwined in politics.

"Religion is fragmenting the human community," said Sam Harris, author of "Letter to a Christian Nation," No. 11 on the New York Times nonfiction list on October 15.

There is a "huge visibility and political empowerment of religion. President George W. Bush uses his first veto to deny funding for stem cell research and scientists everywhere are horrified," he said in an interview.

Religious polarization is part of many world conflicts, he said, including those involving Israel and Iran, "but it's never discussed. I consider it the story of our time, what religion is doing to us. But there are very few people calling a spade a spade."

His "Letter," a blunt 96-page pocket-sized book condensing arguments against belief in quick-fire volleys, appeared on the Times list just ahead of "The God Delusion," by Richard Dawkins, a scientist at Oxford University and long-time atheist.

In addition, Harris' "The End of Faith," a 2004 work which prompted his "Letter" as a response to critics, is holding the No. 13 Times spot among nonfiction paperbacks.

Publishers Weekly said the business has seen "a striking number of impassioned critiques of religion -- any religion, but Christianity in particular," a probably inevitable development given "the super-soaking of American politics and culture with religion in recent years."

Paul Kurtz, founder of the Council for Secular Humanism and publisher of Free Inquiry magazine, said, "The American public is really disturbed about the role of religion in U.S. government policy, particularly with the Bush administration and the breakdown of church-state separation, and secondly with the conflict in the Mideast."

They are turning to free thought and secular humanism and publishers have recognized a taste for that, he added.

"I've published 45 books, many critical of religion," Kurtz said. "I think in America we have this notion of tolerance ... it was considered bad taste to criticize religion. But I think now there are profound questions about age-old hatreds."

The Rev. James Halstead, chairman of the Department of Religious Studies at Chicago's DePaul University, says the phenomenon is really "a ripple caused by the book publishing industry."

"These books cause no new thought or moral commitment. The arguments are centuries old," he told Reuters. Some believers, he added, "are no better. Their conception of God, the Divine-Human-World relationship are much too simplistic and materialistic."

Too often, he said, the concept "God" is misused "to legitimate the self and to beat up other people ... to rehash that same old theistic and atheistic arguments is a waste of time, energy and paper."

Dr. Timothy Larsen, professor of theology at Wheaton College in Illinois, says any growth in interest in atheism is a reflection of the strength of religion -- the former being a parasite that feeds off the latter.

That happened late in the 19th century America when an era of intense religious conviction gave rise to voices like famed agnostic Robert Ingersoll, he said.

For Christianity, he said, "It's very important for people of faith to realize how unsettling and threatening their posture and rhetoric and practice can feel to others. So it's an opportunity for the church to look at itself and say 'we have done things ... that make other people uncomfortable.' It is an opportunity for dialogue."

Larsen, author of the soon-to-be-published "Crisis of Doubt," added that in some sense atheism is "a disappointment with God and with the church. Some of these are people we wounded that we should be handling pastorally rather than with aggressive knockdown debate."

These are also probably some of the same people Harris says he's hearing from after his two books.

"Many, many readers feel utterly isolated in their communities," he said. "They are surrounded by cult members, from their point of view, and are unable to disclose their feelings."

"I get a lot of e-mail just expressing incredible relief that they are not alone ... relieved that I'm writing something that couldn't be said," Harris added.


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To: FormerLib
Isaiah 16:11 (Jewish Publication Society, 1985 translation)

Therefore,
Like a lyre my heart mourns of Moab,
And my very soul for Kir-heres

The JPS 1985 translation is a little more colorful on Ezekiel 23:21: "Thus you reverted to the wantonness of your youth, remembering your youthful breasts, when the men of Egypt handled your nipples."

2 Kings 18:27 "But the Rabshakeh answered them, 'Was it to your master and to you that my master send me to speak this words? It was precisely to the men who are sitting on the wall -- who will have to eat their dung and drink their urine with you.'"

Changes the emphasis to call attention to the men on the walls. Rather more explicit as well.

So let's see: JPS is more in Isaiah, more explicit in Ezekiel and 2 Kings, and shifts emphasis in the latter. Want to claim one's more accurate than another?

101 posted on 10/19/2006 4:53:20 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian ("Don't take life so seriously. You'll never get out of it alive." -- Bugs Bunny)
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To: mc6809e

Actually quite interesting passages, particularly the first two, when read in context.


102 posted on 10/19/2006 4:55:14 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian ("Don't take life so seriously. You'll never get out of it alive." -- Bugs Bunny)
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To: Celtjew Libertarian

I don't see how anyone could read the Bible through and not have that passage from Ezekiel seared (seared!) into one's memory.


103 posted on 10/19/2006 5:04:22 AM PDT by ahayes (On the internet no one can hear you scream.)
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To: meandog
He's clearly not dead...but sometimes I wonder whether He really gives a damn about us or not considering what we put Him through.

Which is WHAT, in your opinion?

104 posted on 10/19/2006 5:10:43 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: mc6809e
(Ezekiel 23: 21, NRSV)

One of MY favorites, MicroProcessor boy!

105 posted on 10/19/2006 5:12:42 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: elcid1970
"There are people who don't believe in Hell until they get there"

HMMmmm.....

Send him my tagline.

106 posted on 10/19/2006 5:13:50 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: antiRepublicrat
Today it is not acceptable in Christian societies. God's word -- and his morals regarding slavery -- remained the same, but the society evolved and decided that slavery was no longer moral despite God's word.

HA Ha ha!

Today it's called TAXATION!!

BTW, there is STILL 'slavery' in parts of the world. (Actually, more like man-stealing [or women or children])

107 posted on 10/19/2006 5:17:51 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: wagglebee
On that Great Judgment Day when we all stand before the Living God we will see if He is Dead. It will be too late if you wait until then to make up your mind.
108 posted on 10/19/2006 5:29:31 AM PDT by sam I am
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To: wagglebee
Atheism ?

We still have faith in the dollar.


BUMP

109 posted on 10/19/2006 5:30:23 AM PDT by capitalist229 (Get Democrats out of our pockets and Republicans out of our bedrooms.)
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To: FormerLib; Miztiki; Celtjew Libertarian
Here are 3 versions...
 
Isaiah 16:11 

-- King James
Wherefore my bowels shall sound like an harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kirharesh.
 
-- American Standard
Wherefore my heart soundeth like a harp for Moab, and mine inward parts for Kir-heres.
 
-- New International
My heart laments for Moab like a harp, my inmost being for Kir Hareseth.
 

 
2 Kings 18:27 
 
-- King James
But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men which sit on the wall, that they may eat their own dung, and drink their own piss with you?
 
-- American Standard
But Rabshakeh said unto them, Hath my master sent me to thy master, and to thee, to speak these words? hath he not sent me to the men that sit on the wall, to eat their own dung, and to drink their own water with you?
 
-- New International
But the commander replied, "Was it only to your master and you that my master sent me to say these things, and not to the men sitting on the wall--who, like you, will have to eat their own filth and drink their own urine?"
 
 


 

-- King James
Ezekiel 23:19  Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
Ezekiel 23:20  For she doted upon their Paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
Ezekiel 23:21  Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in bruising thy teats by the Egyptians for the paps of thy youth.
 
 
-- American Standard
Ezekiel 23:19  Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, remembering the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
Ezekiel 23:20  And she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses.
Ezekiel 23:21  Thus thou calledst to remembrance the lewdness of thy youth, in the handling of thy bosom by the Egyptians for the breasts of thy youth.
 
 
-- New International
Ezekiel 23:20  There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. 
Ezekiel 23:19  Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.
Ezekiel 23:21  So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.
 

110 posted on 10/19/2006 5:31:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: escapefromboston

Atheism is a religion.

Remember a federal judge has ruled that ENVIRONMENTALISM is a religion. (a federal parks worker admitted to skewing data because of environmental beliefs)

the ACLU are priests of Atheism. Just as islam imposes islam at the point of a sword, Atheists impost atheism at the point of a court order.


111 posted on 10/19/2006 5:34:02 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: antiRepublicrat; Sir Francis Dashwood; mdmathis6; Elsie
#21 - Try a simple logical exercise: If God said murder is okay, would you agree that it is okay? If no, then is murder wrong because God said it's wrong, or is murder simply wrong?

Murder is wrong. God said it was wrong.

How about this thought experiment for you: Tell me why murder is wrong, but don't use God in the explanation. Warning: Uses of the term morals or its equivalent is not allowed, since who's morals are you talking about if they didn't come from God?

I would like to hear your reasoning.

112 posted on 10/19/2006 5:43:04 AM PDT by hripka (There are a lot of smart people out there in FReeperLand)
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To: antiRepublicrat
So the end question is, where is the sacrifice?

I've wondered this myself.

With the new TV show, HEROS, where the blond girl gets REALLY messed up physically, yet morphs back together with no lasting damage, it's probably an idea that is wide spread.


When GOD took upon Himself human flesh, He became heir to all the ills that the flesh can experience. Thus, as man, He shed His blood* and died - a 'sacrifice' if you will, in every sense of the word, as we humans know it.

However, as you point out, as GOD, it was a culmination of a long standing plan. *


*NIV Hebrews 9:16-28
 16.  In the case of a will,  it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it,
 17.  because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living.
 18.  This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood.
 19.  When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people.
 20.  He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."
 21.  In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies.
 22.  In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
 23.  It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
 24.  For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence.
 25.  Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own.
 26.  Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
 27.  Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
 28.  so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.


* NIV Ephesians 1:4-5
 4.  For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love
 5.  he  predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

NIV 1 Peter 1:18-20
 18.  For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
 19.  but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
 20.  He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

113 posted on 10/19/2006 5:45:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: mdmathis6

Slavery by Man ends at death,

while the slavery by Sin continues after death!

Thus...

1 Corinthians 15:54-55
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

"Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"


114 posted on 10/19/2006 5:47:56 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: pcottraux; antiRepublicrat
Honestly, no Christian has ever been able to explain this to me*, and I've read a LOT of apologetics.

Maybe this is implied:

* 'to my satisfaction.'

115 posted on 10/19/2006 5:50:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Jorge
Glad that you have seen the light!

The clincher for me was this:

Just STOP and sit down, wherever you are and LOOK. Everywhere you look, there is order, at an almost unimaginable level. Everything in your room was placed there. Did it just appear? Did it self-organize? If someone believes in evolution, have them flip a coin 50 times for me, and see if you get 50 heads in a row. The odds of the world happening with all of its order is Many Many times that.

116 posted on 10/19/2006 5:55:42 AM PDT by hripka (There are a lot of smart people out there in FReeperLand)
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To: Elsie
Atheism has a lot to do with the inability to accept anything beyond one's intellect. In essense, their intellect is their god.

All Christians must accept many things on faith that "do not make sense":
- The Trinity.
- Why did our Lord have to die for our sins, couldn't He have simply forgiven them?

Of course all of us "struggle" with our faith, because we are imperfect, but we do not abandon our faith simply because it does not meet our finite intellectual abilities.

117 posted on 10/19/2006 6:00:59 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: meandog
I am somewhat of a universalism Christian in that I believe everyone who strives for a Jesus-like life of goodness and mercy has a chance at salvation but the question today is how many are leading such a life?
 
Short answer: No - with qualifiers     ;^)
 
 
NIV Matthew 9:9-13
   9.  As Jesus went on from there, he saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax collector's booth. "Follow me," he told him, and Matthew got up and followed him.
 10.  While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples.
 11.  When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and `sinners'?"
 12.  On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick.
 13.  But go and learn what this means: `I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'  For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
 
 
NIV Matthew 11:19
   The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."
 
 
NIV Matthew 21:31-32
 31.  "Which of the two did what his father wanted?"   "The first," they answered.   Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.
 32.  For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.
 
 
NIV Luke 3:12-13
 12.  Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?"
 13.  "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them.
 
 
NIV Luke 18:9-14
  9.  To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
 10.  "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
 11.  The Pharisee stood up and prayed about  himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector.
 12.  I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.'
 13.  "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'
 14.  "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
 
 
 

118 posted on 10/19/2006 6:01:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: EGPWS

Nice home page!


119 posted on 10/19/2006 6:03:07 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Jorge
But one day something clicked, a light went on, and finally it all made sense to me.

Amen Bro!

120 posted on 10/19/2006 6:04:08 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: headstamp
".......and the breakdown of church-state separation......." OK, my BS meter just went off.

Oh, my BS meter went off well before that. He couldn't even get to the second sentence without lying:

"President George W. Bush uses his first veto to deny funding for stem cell research..." he said in an interview.

There is plenty of stem cell research going on. By the way, Bush is the first President to provide ANY money for stem cell research. The federal government is supporting research with adult stem cells, cord blood stem cells and existing fetal lines of cells. The adult cells have resulted in dozens of successful therapeutic applications. The fetal cells have caused tumors.

121 posted on 10/19/2006 6:11:57 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (BS detector on line.)
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To: Junior

Wrong. Collection plate is not a "trapping" but an unchangeable essence. You are purposefully confusing an ideology and a religion. And although these always have reciprocal claims on each other's turfs, they are different: one exists to be behaved, but not necessarily to be believed in, while another exists to be believed in, but not necessarily behaved. Indeed, sincere adherents to the "wrong" side - an ideological believer, or a religious behaver, [aka "saint"] are royal pains and embarrassments in the real life, and this further confuses.


122 posted on 10/19/2006 6:12:19 AM PDT by GSlob
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To: Junior; metmom
 I mean, he isn't really going to die...
 
 
Junner... Junner!  <sigh>
 
Repeating THIS old message??
 
Genesis 3:1
  Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, `You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"
 
You KNOW what the Book says, so you must have inside knowledge about stuff that the rest of us are not privy to:
 
NIV Matthew 27:50
   And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.
 

NIV Mark 15:37
   With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.
 
 
NIV Luke 23:46
   Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.
 
 
NIV John 19:30-37
 30.  When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
 31.  Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down.
 32.  The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other.
 33.  But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.
 34.  Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.
 35.  The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe.
 36.  These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
 37.  and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."
 
Help us out a bit; can you?
 
 
 
 
 
 

123 posted on 10/19/2006 6:12:36 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: js1138
 

 
So according to you God and Jesus Christ are both liars, and Jesus never really died at all.

Your question makes no sense, unless Jesus is not God.

Uh... that wasn't a question.

124 posted on 10/19/2006 6:15:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: wagglebee

Is it 1960 again?


125 posted on 10/19/2006 6:17:15 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: mc6809e

Another argument in favor of broader exposure to language arts.


126 posted on 10/19/2006 6:18:45 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (BS detector on line.)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%

The left hopes it is.


127 posted on 10/19/2006 6:19:31 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee

No kidding.

What a load of manure. I actually couldn't read the whole article.


128 posted on 10/19/2006 6:21:09 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: <1/1,000,000th%

I'm not sure anybody did.


129 posted on 10/19/2006 6:22:09 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: GSlob
But the atheists do not.

Ah... but they DO!

Their's is in their pocket, so the money never goes very far from their control.

130 posted on 10/19/2006 6:22:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
Personal opinion: MOST of the professed Christians have been marginal, or non believers. Probably throughout history. Sheer fear of condemnation, peer pressure and perhaps the belief that religious morality is good for society even if based on nothing other than delusion have led them to supporting churches, attending, professing. With the greater acceptance of alternatives to mainstream Judeo/Christian practice - atheism, Wicca, and othe occult - we are seeing in an overt form what has probably existed since shortly after Peter preached, or at least since the time of Constantine.

One of the most rock-ribbed, upright, 'moral' staunch conservatives I know does NOT believe, but he strongly supports his church, the Republican candidates nationally and in his area and to ALL external appearances is the very model of what a good conservative Republican should be. Because, being an entrepreneur he worships only what WORKS, and the Judeo-Christian, capitalist American style constitutional republic is the most productive and effective system of economic and political liberty creation and preservation ever known (paraphrasing him)
131 posted on 10/19/2006 6:22:14 AM PDT by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, ATF and DEA)
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To: Junior
(Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)

(Losing faith in JESUS one Person at a time.)


132 posted on 10/19/2006 6:23:00 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Junior
Well, pretty soon this forum is going to be nothing but a one-note amen corner instead of the free-wheeling political discussion site it used to be.

Boo hoo!

(Reminds me of a punch line....

"There's TWO of them!"

133 posted on 10/19/2006 6:24:13 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

Well, thanks for the ping, I guess. I don't really see the point of books on atheism, so I don't bother with them.


134 posted on 10/19/2006 6:24:15 AM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: Junior
There is no appeal to the supernatural at all.

Sure there is!

"Leave me alone!"

135 posted on 10/19/2006 6:25:05 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: hripka

(You got teenagers yet?? ;^)

136 posted on 10/19/2006 6:27:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Celtjew Libertarian
Actually quite interesting passages, particularly the first two, when read in context.

Indeed. Any rational Jew who seeks an reason behind the sufferings of the Jewish people need look no further than the prophets of his own people.
137 posted on 10/19/2006 6:30:40 AM PDT by Old_Mil (http://www.constitutionparty.com/)
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To: wagglebee
All Christians must accept many things on faith that "do not make sense":
- The Trinity.

 
(There is at LEAST a 'binary'!)
 

NIV Genesis 1:26
   Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
 

NIV Genesis 3:22
   And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
 
 

138 posted on 10/19/2006 6:30:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
One more...........
 
NIV John 6:24-29
 24.  Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.
 25.  When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
 26.  Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.
 27.  Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."
 28.  Then they asked him,
"What must we do to do the works God requires?"
 29.  Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

139 posted on 10/19/2006 6:32:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie

A major component of modern atheism is the unwillingness to admit that certain things are sinful, and not just sinful "for some" (as they love to opine), but sinful for everyone.


140 posted on 10/19/2006 6:33:12 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: wagglebee
A major component of modern atheism is the unwillingness to admit that certain things are sinful, and not just sinful "for some" (as they love to opine), but sinful for everyone.

Close...

A major component of MAN is the unwillingness to admit that certain things are sinful, and not just sinful "for some" (as they love to opine), but sinful for everyone.

141 posted on 10/19/2006 6:36:15 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: FormerLib

Actually, those verses are direct quotations from the King James version. You quote another version, which is, indeed, quite differently phrased.

In any case, the quotations are taken out of context and, thus, are useless for any purpose.

It's easy to find individual verses in the Bible, in whatever translation, that seem to contradict other verses. It's also dishonest to so use them.

You may have known that the KJV included those verses, or you may not. However, your quotation of them from a different translation doesn't make them go away from the most widely-used English translation of the Bible. It's not a good argument.


142 posted on 10/19/2006 6:36:18 AM PDT by MineralMan (Non-evangelical Atheist)
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To: hripka

Civilization gives men the means for the weakest to kill the strongest. Murder is a legal definition of the nature of a particular type of homocide.

Not all people agree on what murder is... Abortion is homocide without a trial by a jury of the victim's peers; it is a ritual murder, a human sacrifice on an altar of conceit performed before an idol of vanity.

Capital punishment is a legally adjudicated, jury approved act of homocide.


143 posted on 10/19/2006 6:36:22 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: Elsie

And now....


BREAKFAST!


144 posted on 10/19/2006 6:36:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: hripka; antiRepublicrat
How about this thought experiment for you: Tell me why murder is wrong, but don't use God in the explanation.

Golden Rule. Just because you haven't thought much about this, that doesn't mean nobody has.

145 posted on 10/19/2006 6:38:43 AM PDT by Senator Bedfellow (If you're not sure, it was probably sarcasm.)
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To: hripka

I went through that line of reasoning in my late teens and early 20's. The fact is there is no moral right or wrong unless established and enforced by God or (for sake of arguement...there being no God....) the stronger more cohesive groups of humans who can forcefully impose their visions of morality on weaker groups of humans!

The book "Lord of the Flies" paints a dark and horrifying vision of what humans do when all restraints are taken from them! There again it's only dark and horrifying to my "point of view"....it may be idyllic to another's point of view.

The strongest "point" of view too often in our world is often an example of co-ercion via gun "point"!

Democratic Republics are fragile constructs...the World fears the US for not what it is but what it could become....Imagine Rome with Nukes and the ability to project lethal force as far as the moon when deemed expedient...that is what the World really fears!


146 posted on 10/19/2006 6:39:02 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Save the Republic! Mess with the polling firms' heads!)
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To: Elsie

Well said, thanks for the reminder! :-)


147 posted on 10/19/2006 6:39:33 AM PDT by wagglebee ("We are ready for the greatest achievements in the history of freedom." -- President Bush, 1/20/05)
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To: Elsie

Elsie, dear, you're so cute when you're off your meds!


148 posted on 10/19/2006 6:41:24 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: mdmathis6

So, by your line of reasoning, prisons should be full of atheists, right?


149 posted on 10/19/2006 6:42:40 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: antiRepublicrat
If you believe what you've just written, you are closer to understanding than you know. You want to know what it means and you feel uneasy inside about it. it's the question that drives you.. You are right, He is omnipotent and if you ask Him (seriously) He will answer.
150 posted on 10/19/2006 6:44:09 AM PDT by PrepareToLeave (Fight on Christian soldiers!)
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