Faith of Our Fathers - The religion of our Founders

NRO ^ | October 25, 2006 | Michael Novak & Jana Novak

[Tailgunner Joe]

Another stubborn fact is Washington’s insistence, ever since he had been a 24-year-old major leading an expedition of rough youngsters to the defense of the western frontier, that the government should supply outstanding chaplains to lead the men in public prayer and in moral teaching. Again, in his General Orders to the Continental Army on July 2, 1776 (when Independence was first voted on) and on July 9 (when printed copies were available to be read to his troops, drawn up in rank), Washington first entered the phrase “under God” into America’s public language — where, it is believed, Lincoln first saw it, and made it his own.

Still another fact that makes us skeptical of the conventional wisdom is this text (and many others like it) from Washington: “To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to the Supreme Author of all Good.” ...

Among the 89 signers of the Declaration and/or the Constitution, nearly a dozen had studied theology, were ordained ministers, were preachers though not ordained, were chaplains to a militia unit, or were officers of national Bible societies and the like. ...Let us suggest, for starters, studies about the depth of the Christian faith of Roger Sherman; Samuel Huntington; William Williams; the Carroll cousins Charles, Daniel, and John; Hugh Williamson; Robert Treat Paine; William Paca; John Dickinson; Rufus King; William Livingston; John Hancock; Benjamin Rush; Patrick Henry; James Wilson; and George Mason.

[Paloma_55]

It is with God's blessing that we have thrived.

[Paloma_55]

Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion (No government mandated religion) or prohibiting the free exercise thereof (No restriction of religious expression).

For some reason, the latter has been left out.

[VOA]

bump

[Eagles6]

save

[apackof2]

btt

[Jim Robinson]

bump

[Fiddlstix]

Bookmarked

[RobbyS]

He might have found more eveidence if he had delved into the opinions of the colonels and captains in the Continental army or to the middle-ranking Whigs. The most determined Patriots were the Presbyterian and Congregationalist ministers. Among the rank and file, the Baptists were almost uniformly Patriot. They as much as General Washington, were "Founding Fathers."

[ICE-FLYER]

Just a few factual thoughts...

John Quincy Adams
Vice-President of the American Bible Society; Member of the Massachusetts Bible Society
(Report of the Executive Committee of the Bible Society of Massachusetts, Prepared for the Anniversary of the Society, June 4, 1818 (Boston: John Eliot, 1818), p. 7.)

Abraham Baldwin (Signer of the Constitution)
Chaplain in the American Revolution for two years.
(Parker C. Thompson, The United States Army Chaplaincy: from its European Antecedents to 1791 (Washington D.C.: Office of the Chief of Chaplains, Dept. of the Army, 1978), Vol. I, p. 246)

Joel Barlow (Diplomat under Washington and Adams)
Chaplain in the American Revolution for three years.
(Parker C. Thompson, The United States Army Chaplaincy: from its European Antecedents to 1791 (Washington D.C.: Office of the Chief of Chaplains, Dept. of the Army, 1978), Vol. I, p. 246)

Joseph Bloomfield (Governor of New Jersey)
Member of the New Jersey Bible Society
(The Second Report of the managers of the new Jersey Bible Society, Read before the Society at Their Annual Meeting at New Brunswick, August 27, 1811 (Trenton: George Sherman, 1811), p. 11)

Elias Boudinot (President of the Continental Congress)
Founder and First President of the American Bible Society, President of the New Jersey Bible Society, Member of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions, member of the Massachusetts Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge
(Constitution of the American Bible Society (New York: Printed for the American Bible Society, 1816), p. 7.)
(Address of the New Jersey Bible Society to the Publick: with Appendix, Containing the Constitution of Said Society (New Brunswick: Abraham Blauvelt, 1810), P. 15)
(Report of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions (Boston: Crocker & Brewster, 1835), P. 5)
(Rev. Eliphalet Pearson, A Sermon Delivered in Boston Before the Massachusetts Society for Promoting Christian Knowledge, November 27, 1811 (Cambridge: Hilliard & Metcalf, 1811), p. 36)

James Bowdoin (Governor of Massachusetts)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others
(Abiel Holmes, A Discourse Delivered Before the Society for Propagating the Gospel Among the Indians and Others in North America, November 3, 1808 (Boston: Farrand, Mallory, and Co., 1808), p. 66)

John Brooks (Governor of Massachusetts, Revolutionary General)
President of the Middlesex County Bible Society

James Brown (U.S. Senator, and Diplomat)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

James Burrill, Jr. (Chief-Justice of Rhode Island Supreme Court & U. S. Senator)
President of the Providence Auxiliary Bible Society

Dewitt Clinton ( Governor of New York, U. S. Senator, Introduce the 12th Amendment)
Manager and Vice-President of the American Bible Society

Francis Dana (Member of the Continental Congress, Chief Justice of the Massachusetts Supreme Court, U.S. Minister to Russia)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others

John Davenport (Revolutionary Officer; U.S. Congress)
Member of the Missionary Society of Connecticut

Samuel Dexter (Secretary of War under Adams, U.S. Congressman, U.S. Senator)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others

Jonas Galusha (Governor of Vermont)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

William Gaston (Chief-Justice of the North Carolina Supreme Court, U. S. Representative)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Charles Goldsborough (Governor of Maryland, U. S. Representative)
Vice-President of the American Bible Society

William Gray (Lt. Governor of Massachusetts, U.S. Senator)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Felix Grundy (U.S. Attorney General, U.S. Senator, U.S. Congressman)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Alexander Hamilton (Signer of the Constitution)
Proposed formation of the Christian Constitutional Society to spread Christian Government to other nations.

John Hamilton (Major-General in the Revolution, U.S. Congress)
Member of the New Jersey Bible Society

John Jay (Original Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court)
President of the American Bible Society, Member of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions

William Jones (Governor of Rhode Island)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Francis Scott Key (Attorney, Author of the Star Spangled Banner)
Manager and Vice-President of the American Sunday School Union

Rufus King (Signer of the Constitution)
Selected as Manager of the American Bible Society

Andrew Kirkpatrick (Chief Justice of the New Jersey Supreme Court)
Vice-President of the New Jersey Bible Society, Vice-President of the American Bible Society

Marquis De Lafayette (Revolutionary General)
Member of the American Sunday School Union

John Langdon (Signer of the Constitution)
Vice-President of the American Bible Society
Benjamin Lincoln (Revolutionary General, Lt. Governor of Massachusetts)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others

John Lowell (Revolutionary Officer, Member of the Continental Congress)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others

George Madison (Governor of Kentucky)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

John Marshall (Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, Secretary of State, Revolutionary General)
Vice-President of the American Bible Society, officer in the American Sunday School Union

James McHenry (Signer of the Constitution)
President of the Baltimore Bible Society

David Lawrence Morril (Governor of New Hampshire, U.S. Senator)
Vice-President of the American Bible Society, Manager of the American Sunday School Union.

Joseph Nourse (Revolutionary Officer, U.S. Treasury)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Robert Treat Paine (Signer of the Constitution)
Military Chaplain

Albion Parris (Governor of Maine)
Manager of the American Sunday School Union.

William Phillips (Lt. Governor of Massachusetts for 11 terms)
President of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians, President of the Massachusetts Bible Society, a member of the American Board of Foreign Missions, Vice-President of the American Bible Society, President of the American Society for Educating Pious Youth for the Gospel Ministry

Charles Cotesworth Pickney (Signer of the Constitution)
President of the Charleston Bible Society, Vice-President of the American Bible Society

Thomas Posey (Revolutionary Officer, Governor of Indiana, U.S. Senator)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Rufus Putnam (Revolutionary General, Federal Judge)
President of the Ohio Bible Society

Benjamin Rush (Signer of the Constitution)
Founder and Manager of the Philadelphia Bible Society

Isaac Shelby (Revolutionary Officer, Governor of Kentucky)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

John Cotton Smith (Governor of Connecticut, U.S. Congressman)
President of Litchfield County Foreign Missionary Society,, first President of the Connecticut Bible Society, President of the American Bible Society, President of the American Board of Foreign Missions

Caleb Strong (Constitutional Convention, U.S. Senator, Governor of Massachusetts)
Vice- President of the American Bible Society

James Sullivan (Governor of Massachusetts, U.S. Congressman)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others

Increase Sumner (Governor of Massachusetts)
Member of the Society for Propagating the Gospel among the Indians and Others

William Tilghman (Federal Judge, Chief Justice of Pennsylvania Supreme Court)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

Smith Thompson (U.S. Supreme Court, Secretary of the Navy)
Vice- President of the American Bible Society

Daniel Tompkins (Governor of New York, Vice President of the U.S.)
Vice- President of the American Bible Society

John Treadwell (Governor of Connecticut, Member of Continental Congress)
Member of the Missionary Society of Connecticut

Robert Troup (Federal Judge, Secretary of War)
President of the American Bible Society

Peter Vroom (Governor of New Jersey, U.S. Congressman)
Vice-President of the American Bible Society, Member of the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions

Bushrod Washington (U.S. Supreme Court Justice)
President of the American Bible Society, Vice- President of the American Sunday School Union

William Wert (U.S. Attorney General under 2 Presidents)
Manager of the American Sunday School Union, Vice- President of the American Bible Society

Thomas Worthington (Governor of Ohio, U.S. Senator)
Original Officer of the American Bible Society

[onyx]

BTTT and a shameless link to your page! LOL

[Fiddlstix]

Ping

[Fiddlstix]

Thank you J

[Jack Hammer]

A deliberate misreading of the first amdendment is a favorite tool of Democrats, secular humanists - so-called - and others seeking to curtail the expression of religious beliefs in public life, just as a deliberate misreading of the second amendment is a favorite tool of those who would deny the American people their right to keep and bear arms.

[backtothestreets]

Anyone could author a work exploring the combined religious convictions of the authors and signers of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution of the United States of America, but none is more reveling than the latter document, the law of the land, in that it makes no mention of God. Had the authors began the Preamble with a phrase like, "By the grace of God", they would have accomplished part of what the Preamble set out as a goal, "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity".

[do the dhue]

It is with God's blessing that we have thrived.

God knows the plans that he has for us. Plans to prosper us and not to harm us; plans to give us hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11
Now here is what I got to say about it all:

First Amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

If my kid says a prayer in school, does that prayer establish a Religion?

OK, Just in case a liberal is lurkin': No, it takes an act of Congress to establish a Religion.

If you tell my kid that Prayer is not allowed, has a law been made that limits the free exercise thereof?

OK, Just in case a liberal is lurkin': YES! A manger on Public property does not establish a religion. A CHRISTmas tree on public property does not establish a Religion. Tell people they can not put a Christmas tree up and you just limited the free exercise thereof. As long as people are not hurting people, then let people freely exercise their religion. That is our National Religion: Freedom of Religion. Not Freedom from Religion.

Hard to get all this through a Commie liberals head.
mumble mumble maybe a brick mumble mumble

[SandRat]

BTTT

[swmobuffalo]

Bump

[185JHP]

"Faith of our fathers,
We will love
Both friend and foe
In all our strife
And preach Thee too, as
Love knows how
By kindly word and virtuous life."

[ryan71]

"The Light and the Glory" - By Peter Marshall, David Manuel

A great book describing those who discovered and settled America and how their faith in God played a pivotal role. The book asks, "Did god have a plan for America?"

[expatguy]

bttt

[backtothestreets]

You're on the right track. The undermining of the First Amendment by the Supreme Court began with the Taft Supreme Court in 1925. That court ruled the Fourteenth Amendment, ratified 68 years earlier, extended the limitation imposed on Congress in the First Amendment to all state governments. Subsequent court rulings based upon this decision imposed restrictions upon public schools that practiced prayer in school. This same 1925 ruling is the basis for courts prohibiting religious displays on government properties. Only an amendment to the US Constitution can overturn the 1925 Supreme Court decision and restore to the states the right to establish religion.

[RoadTest]

"“To the distinguished Character of Patriot, it should be our highest Glory to add the more distinguished Character of Christian. The signal Instances of providential Goodness which we have experienced and which have now almost crowned our labours with complete Success, demand from us in a peculiar manner the warmest returns of Gratitude and Piety to the Supreme Author of all Good.” ..."

We have left this at our peril. We are on thin ice.

[mtntop3]

Well noted. There seems to be a growing sense in our society that the religious basis of our nation has been smothered for half a century through turning the First Amendment on its head; and that its uncovering and reviving has been long overdue. If this does not occur, we simply will not endure.

[Moonman62]

Most of our Founding Fathers and our early presidents were Episcopalians, though some were classified as deists.

[ICE-FLYER]

Agreed. However I would take it a step further and say that it has been a wilfull and purposeful smothering. The "Separation of Church and State" LIE is just that and whats interesting is how you can drive a liberal nuts with it. SImply tell them its a "Recent phenomina." Because it is. For over 174 years Christianity had a prominant place in our nation and IT was the reason others had freedom of religion. CHRISTIANITY was the tolerant religion...most others were not. Until Engal v. Vital in 1947 and Romer v. Board of Education in 1962 the term "Separation of Church and State" was not even in our lexicon and never used in court.

[RobbyS]

No, most of our founding fathers wre not Episcopalians. Most Church of England types and Dutch Reformed were Tories. IAC don't confuse the relgious views of so-called Deists with those of our europeanized intelligensia. My point is that the Great Awakening probably had more influence on the founders than the Enlightenment. And even if you disput that, don't confuse the Scottish Enlightenment with the French. French ideas were anathema to the Founders, so much so that Jefferson had to give up his fancy French clothes and dress as shabbily his his cousin John Marshall to show that he was a true blue American.

[do the dhue]

Subsequent court rulings based upon this decision imposed restrictions upon public schools that practiced prayer in school. This same 1925 ruling is the basis for courts prohibiting religious displays on government properties.

Then would I be right to say that this ruling restricts the free exercise thereof and this ruling is unconstitutional?

[backtothestreets]

Oddly enough, there is no instrument within the constitution whereby a Supreme Court decision can be challenged as unconstitutional. Thankfully though there is an instrument, the amendment process that can alter how the Supreme Court views specific subjects.

In your earlier post you wrote, "If my kid says a prayer in school, does that prayer establish a Religion?" In light of the Supreme Court refusal without comment earlier this month to hear a case where a public school is teaching Muslim prayer and the Koran, I'd have to venture the answer to your question might be no if your child can assert she is studying.

I say might be no as earlier court rulings barring prayer in school have been expressly targeted at Christian prayer, and the recent court refusal to hear this case of prayer in public schools may be to establish Islam above other religions in our nation, in which case your child should not pray in school if her prayers are based on a faith other than Islam.

[do the dhue]

In my view (and I could be wrong), the establishment of a Religion comes from Congress passing a law that says we all have to go to the Glory Bound Baptist Church. A prayer is part of the free exercise thereof. The Supreme Court ruling interpreted the Constitution incorrectly (in my view). Their ruling needs over turned.

Now, how do I do that. Put a Manger Scene up on Public Property and have someone tell me I just established a religion and I must take it down. Then take it to the Supreme Court. I don't feel that Amending the Constitution is necessary. I think the First Amendment says it all.

[mtntop3]

A comprehensive, succinct - and excellent - study of this very topic is in the just-published, Oct. 06, edition of Imprimus, the monthly digest of Hillsdale College.

It is titled "Origins and Dangers of the 'Wall of Separation' Between Church and State' and is by Daniel L. Dreisbach, Professor of Justice, Law and Society at the American University.

It goes into the intent of the Founders, Jefferson's contributions, and then through all the court cases - including of course the landmark case of Everson v. Board of Education (1947 wherein Justice Hugo L. Black and his Court did the mischief.

A reading of this first-class study will affirm without qualification that the First Amendment has assuredly been stood on its head in regard to religion in our nation. Highly recommended.

We need consider only how the Free Press aspect of the First Amendment has the government keeping its hands off the press. The same was supposed to be the case for religion. The press would not tolerate for one second what has been done to religious practice in the nation.

Hillsdale College: www.hillsdale.edu.

[CarterJohnson]

The author offers no evidence that GW insisted on government supported Chaplains as a 24 year old major. Does anyone know if there is evidence that GW insisted on such?

[CarterJohnson]

The "Separation of Church and State" LIE is just that and whats interesting is how you can drive a liberal nuts with it. SImply tell them its a "Recent phenomina." Because it is.

You are mistaken. The U. S. Constitution granted the U. S. Government no power whatsoever over religion.

[CarterJohnson]

For over 174 years Christianity had a prominant place in our nation.

Please define "prominent place." for us, ICE.

[ICE-FLYER]

The "Separation of Church and State" LIE is just that and whats interesting is how you can drive a liberal nuts with it. SImply tell them its a "Recent phenomina." Because it is.

You are mistaken. The U. S. Constitution granted the U. S. Government no power whatsoever over religion. Well now, I am not mistaken about the current construct of "separation of church and state" being what I called it...a LIE. Whats more. I agree with you that Fed Gov has no rights here to restrict or control it. But they do.

[ICE-FLYER]

Please define "prominent place." for us, ICE.

Do you presume to tell me that it did not have a place in our society? Did they not use and purchase the Bible as a first text book? They did. They used tax monies to do so. Liberals say "Oh shudder the thought that actually means they saw it as something of importance." The oaths of office included refrences to God, the symbols on the buildings included scripture, the founders writings and sayings reflected its influence at all levels. In other words...a "prominant place." Jefferson even used federal monies to build a church for the indians and more monies to pay the priest of that religion. This is from Mr. Separatin of "church and state" how could he? Simple because it was the normal and acceptable practice in government. Now it invites a, pardon the pun, crucifixion should you dare to suggest God in the public arena of politics.

[CarterJohnson]

I am not mistaken about the current construct of "separation of church and state" being what I called it...a LIE.

I would be interested to know what exactly you mean by "the current construct of 'separation of church and state.'"

The Fed Gov has no right to restrict or control it. But they do.

I would be interested to know how you believe the Federal Government is restricting or controlling religion, other than by enforcing the Christian doctrine of no civil power over religion, upon which the U. S. Government was established.

[CarterJohnson]

Did they not use and purchase the Bible as a first text book? They did. They used tax monies to do so.

I am not aware that the U. S. Government, acting under the authority of the U. S. Constitution of 1788, ever purchased Bibles, with tax monies, to be used as text books. What is the source of your information, my friend?

[ICE-FLYER]

Thought so. I even took it out of my first reply because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt but in reality you come across as if you're just looking for a fight. By the way, Welcome to Free Republic.

I would be interested to know what exactly you mean by "the current construct of 'separation of church and state.'"

If you know anything at all about how we got the term then you explain it to me other wise you are simply telling me you know nothing about it because its not in any government document whatsoever. I'll be interested to hear what you actually know about it.

I would be interested to know how you believe the Federal Government is restricting or controlling religion, other than by enforcing the Christian doctrine of no civil power over religion, upon which the U. S. Government was established.

Enfoced doctrine huh? Thats your angle? Can you tell me, sir, how it ENFORCES you to any doctrine to have a town hall put up a nativity scene? I mean after all, lets just be simple about it, that is NOT force of any kind. Neither is a cross on public land, student led prayer in school, moments of silence or chaplains praying in Jesus Name as that is what they are supposed to do. It is not enforcement and no one is made to do anything. That some people are ACTING offended yet unable to show injury leads us to the next issue.

I am not aware that the U. S. Government, acting under the authority of the U. S. Constitution of 1788, ever purchased Bibles, with tax monies, to be used as text books. What is the source of your information, my friend?

That would be because it was not ratified until 1789, but I knew what you meant :D Even so if you are going to tell me that the Continental Congress does not count then fine...according to you. They imported bibles and paid for their printing and yes, they made it into schools. And even today with court cases sometimes limiting they are purchased for use in prisons both for personal use and educational use.

Jefferson used federal monies to teach the Indians the Gospel of Jesus Christ. he personally authored "The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth". He approved funding while president for this. Annual support for the Tribe's Roman Catholic priest and church. The treaty approved stated :
"And whereas, the greater part of the Tribe having been baptized and received into the Catholic Church, to which they are much attached, the United States will give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion.. and.. three hundred dollars to assist the said Tribe in the erection of a church"
[Henery S. Randall, The Life of Thomas Jefferson (New York, Derby & Jackson, 1858) American State Papers, Walter Lowery and Matthew St. Claire Clark, Editors (Washington D.C. Gales & Seaton, 1832)]

Nothing, however, makes the current day LIE about separation of church and state more clear than the debate recorded the day the amendment was voted on. Here that is;
August 15, 1789. Mr. [Peter] Sylvester [of New York] had some doubts...He feared it [the First Amendment] might be thought to have a tendency to abolish religion altogether...Mr. [Elbridge] Gerry [of Massachusetts] said it would read better if it was that "no religious doctrine shall be established by law."...Mr. [James] Madison [of Virginia] said he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that "Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law."...[T]he State[s]...seemed to entertain an opinion that under the clause of the Constitution...it enabled them [Congress] to make laws of such a nature as might...establish a national religion; to prevent these effects he presumed the amendment was intended...Mr. Madison thought if the word "National" was inserted before religion, it would satisfy the minds of honorable gentlemen...He thought if the word "national" was introduced, it would point the amendment directly to the object it was intended to prevent.
(Debates and Proceedings in the Congress of the United States (Washington D.C.: Gales & Seaton, 1834, Vol. I pp. 757-759, August 15, 1789)

And if we are to do anything with the constitution it is that we ought to follow it as written...not as some activist judges twists it about for present day failures of people who could not get their amendment past even simple consideration. Jefferson warned of this as a man who had nothing to do with its writing he understood it quite well and how it was to be interpreted;

"On every question of construction, carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed"
[Thomas Jefferson, memoir, Correspondence and Miscellanies From the Papers of Thomas Jefferson. (Boston: Gray & Bowan, 1830)

[Obie Wan]

"When you become entitled to exercise the right of voting for public officers, let it be impressed on your mind that God commands you to choose for rulers, "just men who will rule in the fear of God." The preservation of [our] government depends on the faithful discharge of this Duty; if the citizens neglect their Duty and place unprincipled men in office, the government will soon be corrupted; laws will be made, not for the public good so much as for selfish or local purposes; corrupt or incompetent men will be appointed to execute the Laws; the public revenues will be squandered on unworthy men; and the rights of the citizen will be violated or disregarded. If [our] government fails to secure public prosperity and happiness, it must be because the citizens neglect the Divine Commands, and elect bad men to make and administer the Laws."

Noah Webster author of the first American dictionary,a book I'd be in big trouble without:) !!!

[CarterJohnson]

If you know anything at all about how we got the term then you explain it to me otherwise you are simply telling me you know nothing about it because its not in any government document whatsoever. I'll be interested to hear what you actually know about it.

In the interest of full disclosure, my view of the rights of conscience and the meaning of the U. S. Constitution, as regards the rights of conscience, is that of James Madison and the Democratic Republican Party of the Early Years of the Republic.

I am here to exchange ideas and to discuss the legal concept of no civil authority over religion and the meaning of the Constitution in regard to that concept. I am not here to play the word game.

If you don't like the term "separation of church and state" to describe the principle of "no civil government power over religion", then just pick another name, and that's what we'll use.

Enfoced doctrine huh? Thats your angle? Can you tell me, sir, how it ENFORCES you to any doctrine to have a town hall put up a nativity scene? I mean after all, lets just be simple about it, that is NOT force of any kind. Neither is a cross on public land, student led prayer in school, moments of silence or chaplains praying in Jesus Name as that is what they are supposed to do. It is not enforcement and no one is made to do anything. That some people are ACTING offended yet unable to show injury leads us to the next issue.

The Constitutional test, according to James Madison, is whether an action by a civil authority takes cognizance of a disputed religious matter, or is an assumption of any type of authority whatsoever over the people's religion.

The display of a nativity scene, or any other act, by a civil authority may, or may not, be an assumption of authority over religion. It all depends on the facts of the individual case. The same is true of a cross on public land, prayer, moments of silence, chaplains praying in Jesus Name or any other action by a civil authority.

You apparently hold the view that a civil authority has no authority to use force and violence in matters of religion, but is permitted to use reason and persuasion. That is certainly a reasonable moral view as well as a reasonable interpretation of the U. S. Constitution.

I share the view of James Madison and the Democratic Republicans that a civil authority has no authority over religion whatsoever. It has no power to use force and violence. However, it also has no right to use reason and persuasion in matters of religion. The only exception is that a civil authority has the power to use force and violence to uphold the Christian doctrine of no civil power over the things of God.

I have carefully considered the evidence and arguments in favor of your view, which I refer to as "religious toleration", and the evidence and arguments in favor of the Madisonian view of the "full and equal rights of conscience." I go with the Madisonian view because it was the view that generally prevailed until the Civil War.

[CarterJohnson]

You are factually incorrect, my friend. The Continental Congress never imported Bibles or paid for their printing. It did authorize its Committee of Commerce to place an order, on behalf of some religious societies, for 20,000 Bibles. However, the Committee never actually placed the order.

From1777 to 1787 there was a considerable change in the attitude of the American people toward mixing religion and politics. Many things regarding mixing religion and politics that may have been acceptable in 1777, were not acceptable in 1787.

Jefferson never used federal monies to teach the Indians the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I suspect you have been reading that propaganda by David Barton without checking out his authorities or reading the historical documents.

President Jefferson submitted “The Treaty With The Kaskaskia” of 1803, to the U. S. Senate. The Treaty obligated the U. S. Government to “give annually for seven years one hundred dollars towards the support of a priest of that religion, who will engage to perform for the said tribe the duties of his office and also to instruct as many of their children as possible in the rudiments of literature. And the United States will further give the sum of three hundred dollars to assist the said tribe in the erection of a church.”

The stipulations made in the treaty were “considered as a full and ample compensation for the relinquishment [all the lands in the Illinois country, which the said tribe has heretofore possessed, or which they may rightfully claim] made to the United States in the first article.”

President Jefferson was motivated by a desire to acquire all the lands in the Illinois country, which the Kaskaskia tribe possessed or claimed. The President was not motivated by the idea that civil government had any duty or authority to encourage or support religion, as is evidenced by the fact that none of the other Indian Treaties contain a provision for the support of a priest or the building of a church. The U. S. Government, in all probability, would have paid $1,000.00 to support a Hindu teacher and a Hindu temple, if that had been what the Indians wanted, as long as it got title the Kaskaskia’s land.

http://www.firstpeople.us/FP-Html-Treaties/TreatyWithTheKaskaskia1803.html

[hosepipe]

There appears to be a National Debate as to whether GOD should be deported from the United States.. -or- to at lease give him a green card.. and restrict his movements..

Boy; the American school system is really dumbing down the people..

Most don't know they themselves are on TRIAL... because of this Donkey Court....

[CarterJohnson]

Nothing, however, makes the current day LIE about separation of church and state more clear than the debate recorded the day the amendment was voted on.

What exactly is the “the current day lie about separation of church and state?”

[CarterJohnson]

If we are to do anything with the constitution it is that we ought to follow it as written.

I agree. The Constitution was written in such a manner as to make it clear that, as Founding Father General Charles Cotesworth Pinckney said, "they [Congress] had no power at all [to interfere in religion]."

[CarterJohnson]

On every question of construction, carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed" [Thomas Jefferson, memoir, Correspondence and Miscellanies From the Papers of Thomas Jefferson. (Boston: Gray & Bowan, 1830)

James Madison manifested the spirit of "no civil power over religion", at the debates in question, when he so famously said, "There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation."

[hinckley buzzard]

The "Deist" straw man always manages to make an appearance. "Deism" wasn't a "category" but an intellectual fashion which o erlay Christianity regardless of denomination. jefferson and Franklin were the only real deists among the main Founding Fathers but Jefferson identified himself very deliberately as a Christian.

In any case the colonials fighting for independence knew what they were about, despie the drivel spewed by later revisionists. Note the motto of the Continental Army: "No other King but Jesus."

[hinckley buzzard]

The federal government not only purchased bibles, it hired Christian missionaries to the Indiams and held church services in the capitol for some years, attended frequently by presidents including Jefferson. The founding fathers were serious and reasonable men who understood the challenges they faced in creating a republic which could survive, and they did not have time for insignificant drivel like whether they were violating their own Constitution by hiring a chaplain, the first offical act of the new government.

[RobbyS]

The Northwest Ordinance tells us a great deal about the founder's idea of the relation of church and state. But Jefferson's letter also tells us a lot. He was on board with the Baptists, who basically were old-fashioned separatists. To them the wall of separation was intended to keep government out of church affairs.