Why Top Atheist Now Believes in a Creator : An Interview with Antony Flew

LEE STROBEL ^ | 11/02/2006 | Lee Strobel

[Paloma_55]

Well...don't keep me in suspense.

Do you have a reference for that?

[Diverdogz]

RAmen, brother.

[sitetest]

Dear GraniteStateConservative,

Although I don't have the time or the inclination to expand on this, typically philosophy (and Christian theology) identify God as entirely simple.


sitetest

[Hebrews 11:6]

My vision of hell is to be alone, without God.

It does not demand fire, brimstone, the devil or anything so terrible as all that. I believe that being without God for eternity would make a fiery hell seem like a good thing.

The problem is that God is not personally present in Hell to restrain evil (because it is the place where people go to get away from Him), yet He has promised punishment and/or suffering there will be related to the sinfulness of its residents. How can He restrain evil without doing so personally?

One way would be to surround each person with just enough fire to keep them from attacking others. Periodically, they would lunge at each other, the frequency of their attacks being determined by their unrestrained level of evil. They would experience the flames in direct proportion to their own sinfulness, yet they would be protected from others' evil.

Ultimately, Hell will be populated by those who believe being apart from God is a good thing. Indeed, their frequent experience in the flames will serve to confirm that belief. The gates of Hell will be locked from the inside.

[BrandtMichaels]

I am amazed by the complete lack of postings from the FR pro evolutionists (Patrick Henry where are all your compatriots?) zero response to this thread and already over a day old! Heve they all gone away? Have I been gone away so long that only Fester Chugabrew and Right Whale are the only ones left of your kind?

If Flew is reading Stroebels' works I wonder if anyone has referred him to Dr. Grant Jeffries book The Signature of God. It basically lays out the staggering odds of fulfilling just a few of the over 100 prophesies regarding Jesus Christ as the Messiah. Incidentally there are actually over 300 prophesies concerning the Messiah - the 'lion' prophesies yet to be fulfilled until Christs' triumphant return to set up his millenial kingdom.

If/when Flew finally comes to accept Jesus Christ as his Savior the I'd further like to see him review and critic Dr. Walt Browns' book In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood. I have not yet seen any true scientific refutation of this work - some have tried and ignored certain key pieces of what he's laid out while others have simply changed the math he presents - available online for all who are interested:
http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/

[Forgiven_Sinner]

"I had this conversation earlier tonight...to definitively rule out the existence of God, one must, quite literally, know everything...if one knows everything, one is omniscient, and by knowing all things, one therefore knows how to accomplish all things, and is therefore omnipotent as well...in other words, one must be divine to rule out the existence of God with any certainty. One without divine qualities can only at best, guess at the matter, making their conclusions every bit a matter of faith as one who believes..."

LOL. When I was 7, I learned what atheism and agnosticism were. I immediately ruled out atheism, since I couldn't be sure. So from 7 until I was 13 I said I was agnostic, since I wasn't sure about the existence of God.

At 13, I was studying cosmology and the choice was between the Big Bang theory and the Steady state. Steady state said that as the universe expanded new hydrogen atoms came into existence in the new space. To me, creation ex nilo, required God. Then I realized that the Big Bang was also creation ex nilo, since there was no source for all the matter and energy in the universe.

Since then, I've been sure of the existence of God. I became a Christian two years later.

[Forgiven_Sinner]

Hell #1
"My vision of hell is to be alone, without God.

It does not demand fire, brimstone, the devil or anything so terrible as all that. I believe that being without God for eternity would make a fiery hell seem like a good thing."

Hell #2
"The problem is that God is not personally present in Hell to restrain evil (because it is the place where people go to get away from Him), yet He has promised punishment and/or suffering there will be related to the sinfulness of its residents. How can He restrain evil without doing so personally?

"One way would be to surround each person with just enough fire to keep them from attacking others. Periodically, they would lunge at each other, the frequency of their attacks being determined by their unrestrained level of evil. They would experience the flames in direct proportion to their own sinfulness, yet they would be protected from others' evil."

Hell #3

I too have problems with people suffering forever in hell. Infinite punishment seems out of proportion to finite sin.

Fortunately, the Bible no where reveals people will suffer forever in hell. I have studied it carefully and it seems quite clear that the wicked will be destroyed to nothing.

Ed Fudge, a Christian apologist, has a fine book expounding on this, "The Fire That Consumes".

http://www.edwardfudge.com/home.html

[YHAOS]

"There are only nominal atheists."

Bingo!

[Hebrews 11:6]

...the Bible no where reveals people will suffer forever in hell. I have studied it carefully and it seems quite clear that the wicked will be destroyed to nothing.

Perhaps you'll explain, then, Jesus' quote from Mark 9:44, 47-8:
"into hell, where the fire never goes out...into hell, where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

[Riverman94610]

Regarding Dawkings,he reminds me of that quote from long ago,"Those who deny God the most vociferously are those who most need Him in their lives".
Atheism is thus more a cry for help than anything else.

[Heartlander]

Who created God, who is more complex than we?

How long does it take to create time?
What did matter weigh before it existed?
How much space is required to create all dimensions?

How do these questions differ from the question that you ask if everything must be compared to the physical? Or are you stating that either everything physical ultimately needs a creator / or nothing physical ultimately needs a creator?

If nothing physical ultimately needs a creator than I should expect answers to these questions from – well, ultimately mindless causes…

[Riverman94610]

I recall reading in a near death experience book that when we pass on to the Other Side,we are given a Life Review by God and all the pain we caused others in our lives,WE feel in God's presence and immediately become aware of how our mortal failings not only hurt uS but hurt God as well.

[fish hawk]

I get sick of hearing people say that if there is a God why would he send people to Hell. God does not send anyone to Hell. People have free choice and CHOOSE to go there. They are given alternatives and they choose that one.

[Heartlander]

Honestly, how does the ‘FSM’ differ from the ultimately uncaused RM&NS ‘god’ which created mankind that Darwinism invokes?

[DennisR]

Although whether Mr. Hawking believes in God or not has nothing to do with God's existence, see the following:

http://www.pacificnews.org/marko/hawking.html

[Heartlander]

Furthermore, I say we stop sending people to prison because, after all:

All the world's a stage and life is just a metaphor for chemical acts.

/sarcasm…

[YHAOS]

”Patrick Henry where are all your compatriots?”

Picked up their marbles and left. Don’t wanna study Evo war no more.

”If/when Flew finally comes to accept Jesus Christ as his Savior”

Ain’t gonna happen, Pilgrim. { 8^) Let’s see . . . when’s his next book due in the stores?

[YHAOS]

”Hell #3”

”I too have problems with people suffering forever in hell. Infinite punishment seems out of proportion to finite sin.”

”Fortunately, the Bible no where reveals people will suffer forever in hell. I have studied it carefully and it seems quite clear that the wicked will be destroyed to nothing.”

Fascinating! I must confess to having similar thoughts: eternal damnation, sans eternal punishment. Appropriate it would be . . . that those who deny the existence of God and believe they are destined to live their allotted three score and ten (or perhaps even just the least little bit more) and are then to be consigned to eternal oblivion, should indeed suffer that precise fate. Merciful, too . . . that they should be granted their exact expectation . . . no mental anguish at separation, no physical suffering . . . just the total cessation of all sentience. Nothing but nothing, as it were.

Have you a citation of passages you would care to pass on? I would be most grateful.

[Hebrews 11:6]

Have you a citation of passages you would care to pass on? I would be most grateful.

Here's a suggestion made in all seriousness. Read through the entire Bible yourself looking specifically just for all the verses on that topic. Can be done in a month or two.

Of course, if you're not already a Bible reader, then probably you wouldn't really be "most" grateful if someone else did the work for you, since you don't value it enough to do it yourself.

By the way, I know someone who reads through the entire Bible twice a year topically in this way, picking a different topic each time as the Holy Spirit leads. I'm not quite that ambitious myself, reading at more like half his pace, but with the same purpose.

[KsSunflower]

bump