Why Top Atheist Now Believes in a Creator : An Interview with Antony Flew

LEE STROBEL ^ | 11/02/2006 | Lee Strobel

[Forgiven_Sinner]

Hi Hebrews 11:6

Mark 9:44, 47-48 is a quote from Isaiah 66:24 Here it is with the context of the chapter:

(NIV used throughout)

Isaiah 66:15 See, the LORD is coming with fire,
and his chariots are like a whirlwind;
he will bring down his anger with fury,
and his rebuke with flames of fire.

16 For with fire and with his sword
the LORD will execute judgment upon all men,
and many will be those slain by the LORD.

* * *

22 "As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me," declares the LORD, "so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me," says the LORD. 24 "And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Ed Fudge explains that to the Hebrews the unburied body is the greatest shame imaginable. Worms are the natural results of unburied bodies.

Ecclesiastes 6:3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a stillborn child is better off than he.

Burning corpses is also shameful, showing something is detestable. Joshua 7:25, 25 Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them.

This is speaking of Achen, who disobeyed God and brought a defeat upon Joshua's army.

So the bodies of the wicked are doubly cursed, in that they are consumed by worms and by fire.

With this background, let's look at Mark 9:44-48

42"And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck.
43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[c]
45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[d] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Jesus is clearly referring to Isaiah where, where the shameful death of worm eaten corpses burned by fire are cited. His hearers would be familiar with the verse.

What does "fire is not quenched" mean? "Quench" means to put out a fire. So there is no deliverance from a fire that is never put out.

God refers to Himself as a fire that is never quenched, in regards to the coming punishment of Israel in the prophet Amos:

5:6 Seek the LORD and live, or he will sweep through the house of Joseph like a fire; it will devour, and Bethel will have no one to quench it.

Israel was certainly punished and removed from their land.

God repeats his warning to Judah in Ezekiel, here pictured as the South, since their kingdom was south of Israel's:

Ezekiel 20:45 The word of the LORD came to me: 46 "Son of man, set your face toward the south; preach against the south and prophesy against the forest of the southland. 47 Say to the southern forest: 'Hear the word of the LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am about to set fire to you, and it will consume all your trees, both green and dry. The blazing flame will not be quenched, and every face from south to north will be scorched by it. 48 Everyone will see that I the LORD have kindled it; it will not be quenched.' "

And like Israel was taken captivity by Assyria, so Judah was taken captivity by Babylon; the fire was not quenched.

Given this background, what is Jesus saying in Mark 9:44-48? Give up sin ruthlessly, or you will die a shameful death, your body eaten by worms and burnt as an enemy of God. A very horrible picture indeed, yet He does not say this suffering goes on endlessly.

I heartily agree with your comment to YHAOS:

"Here's a suggestion made in all seriousness. Read through the entire Bible yourself looking specifically just for all the verses on that topic. Can be done in a month or two"

That's what I did when I studied this topic--and I could not find a verse which said the punishment of the wicked was eternally conscious. It was definitely eternal--but not conscious.

I then read Ed Fudge's book "The Fire That Consumes". He did a far more thorough and scholarly analysis of the topic, examining the Old Testement, Intertestemental books, and New Testement on the topic, as well as the prevalent Greek beliefs and the Rabbinic commentaries on the topic--and came to the same conclusion.

May God bless you both. He will surely guide His Church to all truth.

[Hebrews 11:6]

Sorry, friend, you and your friend are Fudging the plain meaning of Scripture, something I would think you'd want to be careful to avoid.

Jesus used an OT phrase to describe Hell. He specifically stated, "...hell, where the fire never goes out" and "...hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'"

You, however, want to take his clear statement and allegorize it to a warning to Israel. It is, rather, a warning to all.

I am still waiting for Scriptural support from you for your position. Mine is unassailable.

[Forgiven_Sinner]

"You, however, want to take his clear statement and allegorize it to a warning to Israel. It is, rather, a warning to all."

I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I cited the OT scripture Jesus was quoting to show what it meant there. I then concluded Jesus was talking about a shameful death in hell, with the body burning and the body destroyed by worms. I was not trying to apply the NT verse to Israel.

Going back to the verse you cited:

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.[a] 45And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.[b] 47And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48where
" 'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'[c]

Note that the fact the fire is not put out doesn't mean the person experiences it for all eternity. Why do you draw that conclusion?

[Hebrews 11:6]

Note that the fact the fire is not put out doesn't mean the person experiences it for all eternity. Why do you draw that conclusion?

Jesus is warning about eternal consequences. The natural meaning of his words is the meaning I take. What else might He mean by His reference to unending fire, etc., than that the fire will not end for the person experiencing it?

After all, His comments are very personal: sacrifice essential body parts for heaven's sake. He presents the choice: pay a small price now, or a big one later. Eternally.

[GregoryFul]

I find that the greatest evidence is in the interwoven psychic experiences that I've had, and have heard others recount. How is it possible for understandings of apparent truths to be wrapped into veritable lessons in time in coinciding individual lives without there being a plan, and a layout of events?

[GregoryFul]

If you move your imagination to include the real world as structured also with the fourth dimension of time, then all that we perceive as existing is of zero extent in time. 8 ft. x 10 ft. x 30 ft. x 0 seconds = 0 space time units. Existing things are insubstantial projections in space-time according to current theory. Like a photon in three dimensional space, will suddenly appear, then vanish from some point in space, ponderous objects appear then vanish from four-dimensional space-time. All that we conceive of existing can be (and was) borne from nothing. Just ask a physicist!

[onedoug]

The work of physicist Gerald Schroeder had been influential in Flew's new belief, but Flew admitted to Carrier that he had not read any of the scientific critiques of Schroeder that Carrier referred him to.

Gerald Schroeder, "The Science Of God"

[YHAOS]

"I heartily agree with your comment to YHAOS:"

My thanks to you both. The protocol with which I am most accustomed, involves the citation of a reference in connection with a major point raised in a discussion. Clearly, this is not a protocol with which either of you are comfortable. My apologies; I will not trouble you with such a request, again.

Thank you, Forgiven_Sinner, for the wonderful material which you have provided me.

[joseph20]

I believe in a Supreme Being Creator God. One of the main problems I have with the Christian God is that I am required to believe in him as a condition of everlasting life.

If the reward is so great, and the alternative so terrible, and God is all-good, and belief in him is a requirement of everlasting life, then why hasn't God presented us with absolute proof of His existence?

Why has he left the world in such a way as it's *reasonable* to withhold judgement on the question of whether He actually exists or not?

The only conclusion I can draw is that either God is not the God of Christianity and that he actually doesn't require belief in Him in order to receive a reward for living a good life, or that God is actually not all-good, or that God simply just does not exist, or that God is not all-powerful. Those are the only valid conclusions I can come up with.