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School math books, nonsense, and the National Science Foundation
csun ^ | Sunday, November 12, 2006 | David Klein

Posted on 11/12/2006 8:18:39 PM PST by wintertime

Problem: Find the slope and y-intercept of the equation 10 = x – 2.5.

Solution: The equation 10 = x – 2.5 is a specific case of the equation y = x – 2.5, which has a slope of 1 and a y-intercept of –2.5.

This problem comes from a 7th grade math quiz that accompanies a widely used textbook series for grades 6 to 8 called Connected Mathematics Program or CMP.[1] The solution appears in the CMP Teacher’s Guide and is supported by a discussion of sample student work.

Richard Askey, a mathematician at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, reported, “I was told about this problem by a parent whose child took this quiz. The marking was exactly as in the text.”[2] Students instructed and graded in this way learn incorrect mathematics, and teachers who know better may be undermined by their less informed peers, armed with the “solution.” This example is far from the only failing of CMP. Among other shortcomings, there is no instruction on division of fractions in the entire three year CMP series, and the other parts of fraction arithmetic are treated poorly.[3]

Is CMP just an anomaly? Unfortunately not. CMP is only one of more than a dozen defective K-12 math programs funded by the National Science Foundation. More specifically, the NSF programs were created and distributed through grants from the Education and Human Resources (EHR) Division within the NSF. In contrast to the NSF’s admirable and important role in supporting fundamental scientific research, the EHR has caused, and continues to cause, damage to K-12 mathematics education.

At the elementary school level, one of the worst NSF funded programs is the widely used K-5 series TERC: Investigations in Number, Data, and Space.[4] The program relies heavily on calculators and does not include textbooks in the usual sense. Harvard mathematician Wilfried Schmid evaluated it and concluded that by the end of 5th grade, TERC students were roughly two years behind where they should be according to the California, Indiana, and Massachusetts state mathematics standards, the best state math standards in the U.S.[5] Schmid added, “The TERC authors are also opposed to the teaching of the traditional algorithms of arithmetic, such as long addition, subtraction with borrowing, and the usual pencil-and-paper methods of multiplication and division. Not only do they refuse to teach the algorithms, they make clear their preference not to have the students learn them outside of the classroom, either.”[6]

(snip) The root cause is money badly spent. The NSF and corporate foundations maintain a gravy train of education grants and awards that stifle competent mathematics education. Although it is conceivable that ongoing NSF grants for new editions of defective math programs, such as those I have described, will improve matters, that is a poor strategy. It amounts to throwing good money after bad. The most that one can realistically hope for is that the original NSF-funded math programs will eventually rise to the level of mediocrity.

TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: homeschool; mathinstruction; school
first 1-5051-85 next last
Another reason to homeschool.

My own children used the Saxon Math books. They were admitted to college at the ages of 13, 12, and 13. By the age of 15, all had finished all levels of college calculus ( Calc III). The two younger were graduates of our flagship state university by the age of 18 with B.S. degrees in mathematics. The oldest of these two recently finished a masters degree in mathematics.

The oldest chose accounting.

So...Parents...homeschool, privately school, or be prepared to pay big bucks to the Sylvan Centers or for Kumon. But...even though the government school parent is doing the teaching or paying for the tutoring, the government school bureaucrats will take full credit for the high test scores.

1 posted on 11/12/2006 8:18:44 PM PST by wintertime

To: wintertime
The equation 10 = x – 2.5 is a specific case of the equation y = x – 2.5

Looks more like a specific case of x=12.5. That would be a line parallel to the Y axis. It should intercept the Y axis the next time I agree with a position taken by Nancy Pelosi.

2 posted on 11/12/2006 8:26:59 PM PST by TruthShallSetYouFree (Abortion is to family planning what bankruptcy is to financial planning.)

To: wintertime
The devotion to your sons education is admirable. I'm homeschooling my younger brother (age 11) in intermediate algebra.
3 posted on 11/12/2006 8:27:27 PM PST by lulo

To: wintertime
Well, aren't they special?

My children were admitted to college at ages 12, 11, and 12. By the age of 14, all had finished all levels of college calculus. The two younger were graduates of Oxford and Harvard by the age of 17 with B.S. degrees in mathematics. The oldest of these two recently finished a Ph.D in mathematics.

So - parents - don't listen to those who utter platitudes and easy fixes to the complex problem of public eductation.

Widely-available education is a key advantage we in the United States have over the oligarchies of Europe and elsewhere. I believe anyone can achieve anything in the U.S.; provided they take advantage of public education, have sufficient innate intelligence, and work hard enough.

4 posted on 11/12/2006 8:29:07 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: Air Force Brat

What is YOUR problem? Little sarcastic aren't we? Or jealous? Sheesh.

5 posted on 11/12/2006 8:33:55 PM PST by goodnesswins (I think the real problem is islamo-bombia! (Rummyfan))

To: Air Force Brat

I took a math-for-teachers class that was taught by a Drama Major who insisted that there were 'many ways' to get a variety of answers. The PhD in Math guy, who was also required to take a SERIES of these inane classes, was just rolling his eyes. The Drama Major insisted on these 'new ways of looking at math.' She was from a well-respected university here in So Cal/ they were running the program for the state.

I left after 2 sessions. My brain hurt from the confusion the TEACHER was causing. I don't think teachers understand math, and the texts are awful too.

And that is why there are so many libs, I think. hahah.

6 posted on 11/12/2006 8:34:39 PM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)

To: Air Force Brat

Well, aren't they special?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Actually, my kids are not any smarter than any of the kids of the posters on this message board.

Hey...They haven't won any nation spelling bee, or published a New Times Best Seller.

7 posted on 11/12/2006 8:36:38 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: goodnesswins

I thought it was pretty funny. Reading it, I could really imaging the Jones' going on about their kids being just a little better than mine at everything.

8 posted on 11/12/2006 8:38:59 PM PST by samson1097

To: wintertime

Ummm-- They might be a wee bit smarter than some of our kids. My 12 year old is still doing pre-algebra and grumbling all the way about the Saxon books.

9 posted on 11/12/2006 8:41:07 PM PST by HungarianGypsy

To: lulo

(age 11) in intermediate algebra.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

By age 12 he will be ready for college level calculus.

10 posted on 11/12/2006 8:42:21 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: Air Force Brat

What? Otherwise you wind up in Iraq?

11 posted on 11/12/2006 8:48:08 PM PST by Frwy (Eternity without Jesus is a hell-of-a long time.)

To: HungarianGypsy

I know a number of kids who have found the Saxon books to be excessively tedious and not really good at connecting the math to the real world. If you know a child who thinks that, be advised that there are other books out there, some of which may be better for that child.

Have found the Mathematically Correct website book reviews to be most helpful. http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/

12 posted on 11/12/2006 8:50:59 PM PST by cosine

To: wintertime
Another reason to homeschool. My own children used the Saxon Math books.

Oh, Saxon Math doesn't have any typographic errors at all, does it?

I've got no problem with homeschooling, per se. I do, however, have a beef with people who find every single isolated instance where the public education system - one of the largest industries of in the United States - messes up, and extrapolates it as though it applied to every school and every teacher.

So...Parents...homeschool, privately school, or be prepared to pay big bucks to the Sylvan Centers or for Kumon.

Horsecrap. There's still a lot of really good math teachers out there. They learn not to depend upon a book to the exclusion of their training and expertise.

13 posted on 11/12/2006 8:54:25 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")

To: wintertime

I replied because I've grown tired of people posting unsubstantiated claims about public policy.

I could easily have said - my kid is well on his way to discovering a cure for Parkinsons made out of bicycle innertubes -- and he's only 9! So Mr. Fox can just stuff it!!!

The bottom line is: anecdotes may be interesting but they are ultimately irrelevant. In my opinion, what matters when discussing public education is not outliers who did not participate in public education, but rather real, tangible, repeatable solutions for those who do.

As a nation, we need to raise the level of our children's education, or else in 50 years they will be cleaning house and doing the laundry of others. Perhaps publicly funded education is not the answer; if not, please describe a well-thought-out alternative. My belief is that publicly-funded education is a fundamental part of how we as a nation will compete in the 21st century. The key question is: how we we improve it?

14 posted on 11/12/2006 8:55:48 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: bboop

Yep. That's a huge problem. We should insist that only those who are properly prepared teach in public schools.

Step one in improving our education system.

15 posted on 11/12/2006 8:57:40 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: TruthShallSetYouFree

Yup, unless the world has changed and nobody told me.

16 posted on 11/12/2006 8:57:51 PM PST by jpsb

To: Air Force Brat
I replied because I've grown tired of people posting unsubstantiated claims about public policy.

I wonder how much of the "another-reason-to-homeschool" obsession with every failing in the public schools is due to the individual parent's insecurity about their own decision?

17 posted on 11/12/2006 8:58:04 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")

To: Frwy

heh heh heh, good one.

18 posted on 11/12/2006 8:58:28 PM PST by HighWheeler (A true liberal today is a combination of socialist, fascist, hypocrite, and anti-American.)

To: goodnesswins

No. Of course not. I'm certain my kids are just as tangible as wintertime's kids. I'm simply trying to make a point.

19 posted on 11/12/2006 8:59:12 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: Frwy

Good one. That still ticks me off.

20 posted on 11/12/2006 9:00:09 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: jude24

Good question. I'm sure there's a profound emotional linkage to any parent's decision.

21 posted on 11/12/2006 9:01:55 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: Air Force Brat
Don't be such a Snidely Whiplash! There are a lot of us homeschoolers out here who are trying to repair the damage done by crappy math teachers in our kids' early school years.

Homeschooling is not for everyone, but some kids truly thrive when set free from the stultifying air of the classroom.

22 posted on 11/12/2006 9:14:22 PM PST by SuziQ

To: wintertime
My son was in a school district that used this very program. I volunteered countless hours in his classroom and saw first hand how this program worked.

While I understand the concept that not all children learn in the same way, and this program addresses that, it still breaks down to total frustration on the part of parents who can't help their children because they can't figure out what is going on.

Example: Long Division

We all learned how to do long division the same way, and you need to know the multiplication tables in order to do long division. Not with this program.

Imagine dividing 20 by 2. With knowledge of multiplication tables you could easily say the answer is 10. But, with this math program they asked the kids to "guess" how many times they think 2 can "go into" 20. If the child guesses two times, they have you write a 2 off to the side, then subtract 2 from 20. Now you have 18 with a 2 off to the side. Now, how many times do you think 2 will go into 18? The child guesses 2 again. So another 2 goes under the first two and you subtract another two from 18. So, by the end of the problem the child will have 10 twos along the side and will basically have spent 20 minutes on a problem that would have been easily seen if they had been taught the math tables. I'm not exaggerating on this, it was a nightmare. Another scenario had this lattice work looking grid but I couldn't even figure that one out! They also had something they called Spiralling, which meant they would touch on a subject once or twice then a few months later if they touched on it again it would be "slightly" familiar to the kids.

I homeschool now.

23 posted on 11/12/2006 9:15:42 PM PST by WhyisaTexasgirlinPA (Remembering Beirut Vets 1983 American Embassy April 1983/Marine Headquarters Oct.1983)

To: HungarianGypsy
My 12 year old is still doing pre-algebra and grumbling all the way about the Saxon books.

Before you go any further with Saxon, check out Harold Jacob's Elementary Algebra, for Alg. 1, Jacob's Geometry, and Foerster's Alg. and Trig. for Alg. II. SirKit has a BS in Math and a PhD in Statistics, and he's seen a LOT of math textbooks during our kids' school years. He liked the Saxon middle school books, but he really enjoyed working with our homeschooled younger two in the Jacobs and Foerster books.

24 posted on 11/12/2006 9:17:45 PM PST by SuziQ

To: SuziQ

Actually I am considering doing a lot of the Math web links we have. He was excited last year when he was playing a puzzle game and realized it was algebra. I'll probably also give him my Painless Algebra book and see how he does with that.

25 posted on 11/12/2006 9:21:04 PM PST by HungarianGypsy

To: jude24

I graduated in 2003 from TJHSST, a Virginia Governor's School for science and technology in Alexandria.

My math teachers used the books for homework problems and in some cases used textbooks custom developed by the math department. The computer science curriculum had its own textbook written in house.

My (conservative!) U.S. history teacher (famous for the sheer number of his students who would get 5's on the AP exam) never used our textbook.

So...it all depends on the school and the teacher.

26 posted on 11/12/2006 9:21:43 PM PST by rabscuttle385 (Sic Semper Tyrannis * Allen for U.S. Senate in '08)

To: WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
I homeschool now.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

And I bet your child can divide 20 by 2.

If you could not figure out the grid, I doubt the teacher could either. Elementary school teachers have Math SAT score in the university basement.
27 posted on 11/12/2006 9:23:53 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: jude24

Oh, Saxon Math doesn't have any typographic errors at all, does it?

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In all my years using Saxon Math, I never found and error. This isn't surprising. Saxon Math has been around a long time, and their textbooks are not radically changed from year to year.

28 posted on 11/12/2006 9:26:05 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: wintertime

Actually his teacher that year was wonderful, probably one of the best he ever had. She was as frustrated to have to teach that method as the kids were. Her attitude was that whatever method the kids used was fine. If they knew their tables, they could do the problems that way, if not, try one of the others. Unfortunately, some of the other teachers made the kids learn each method and they were more confused by that.

29 posted on 11/12/2006 9:26:42 PM PST by WhyisaTexasgirlinPA (Remembering Beirut Vets 1983 American Embassy April 1983/Marine Headquarters Oct.1983)

To: cosine
I know a number of kids who have found the Saxon books to be excessively tedious and not really good at connecting the math to the real world.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are you a teacher or a tutor?

Saxon Math would likely be a terrible choice for tutoring.

Real World? Huh? The very best preparation for the "real world" of science and math is a very good foundation in math. Saxon Math excels in this.
30 posted on 11/12/2006 9:28:15 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: jude24
Horsecrap. There's still a lot of really good math teachers out there.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Great for you, if your child wins the prize and gets a good math teacher for a year or two. Some kids are forever "winning" the lousy math teachers.
31 posted on 11/12/2006 9:29:37 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: SuziQ

Absolutely. Homeschooling is an excellent choice for many families. I'm not criticizing that. I am criticizing those who post unverifiable stories about a subject as if it is proof positive that their course is the right way to go.

32 posted on 11/12/2006 9:29:49 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: Air Force Brat
I am criticizing those who post unverifiable stories about a subject as if it is proof positive that their course is the right way to go.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

In post #1 my suggestion was to homeschool, or privately school. If you insist on keeping your child in government school, then teach them math yourself, hire tutors, or use a tutoring service such as Kumon or Sylvan.

This does not sound like "one way to go."

If your child remains in government school, and you teach or have them privately tutored, be prepared for the government school educrats to take credit for the high math scores.
33 posted on 11/12/2006 9:35:26 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid)

To: rabscuttle385
My (conservative!) U.S. history teacher (famous for the sheer number of his students who would get 5's on the AP exam) never used our textbook.

I'm assuming you mean the AP US History test? What textbook had been assigned, and what kind of materials did he use instead?

34 posted on 11/12/2006 9:39:10 PM PST by SuziQ

To: wintertime

I'm sorry the public schools in your area are so poor.

Such was not the case in my neighborhood.

I encourage you to work hard to improve local government in your area. That would be far more fruitful than just sitting on the sidelines and not participating in local government; which I'm sure you would never do.

35 posted on 11/12/2006 9:41:46 PM PST by Air Force Brat

To: SuziQ

We had a pretty old, hard to read U.S. history textbook. I tried to read it over break, but it put me to sleep.

It never left my locker.

We used a thick U.S. history "summary" book (I forget the title)--this was mostly for reviewing for tests.

Our teacher actually taught us! (Surprisingly.) We did research projects in conjunction with our English class (integrated with U.S. history). The better parts were practicing for the essays and DBQs (document based questions) on the tests. Since my teacher was an AP grader, he knew exactly what the test was looking for.

We also held "Meetings of the Minds"--in which each student would pick a historical person and research that person's position on a particular topic, and we as a class would debate that topic (from our historical person's point of view).

Also--the U.S. History AP (and the SAT II test) were really really easy to begin with, imo. I got a 5 on the AP and 790 on the SAT II.

36 posted on 11/12/2006 9:43:08 PM PST by rabscuttle385 (Sic Semper Tyrannis * Allen for U.S. Senate in '08)

To: Air Force Brat; wintertime
I am criticizing those who post unverifiable stories about a subject as if it is proof positive that their course is the right way to go.

The same could be said for those who claim that the public school is the only way to go because their children had stupendous math teachers each year. Not everyone has that experience, even in private schools. Our kids only attended public school during their Kindergarten years, and only because the Catholic school didn't have Kindergarten at that time. They never had good math teachers, until our sons entered a very good, private Catholic all boys high school.

Our oldest is smart, but he wasn't as interested in Math, though he did go all the way through AP-AB Calculus and made a 5 on the test. He just passed the Bar Exam for MA.

Our two homeschooled kids have done well in Math, our daughter taking up through pre-Calc at the Community college, and our son just fixing to get into Alg. II in his Junior year. It is a struggle for him, mainly because of the crappy early Math years. We regret not pulling him from school earlier.

I thought wintertime was just making the point that homeschooling was the right choice for HER kids. They DID excel in that environment, after all.

37 posted on 11/12/2006 9:55:22 PM PST by SuziQ

To: rabscuttle385

Sounds like a fantastic class!! Our boys used Brinkley's US History for their AP class, and our daughter used the same text when she homeschooled, though she didn't take the AP test. She liked the text, though she recognized his liberal leanings in the writings. One thing about his text that we liked was the part where he shows what other historians have to say about the matter, especially those who hold different conclusions from his. We're using the Brinkley text again with our youngest this year.

38 posted on 11/12/2006 9:58:45 PM PST by SuziQ

To: Air Force Brat
I encourage you to work hard to improve local government in your area. That would be far more fruitful than just sitting on the sidelines and not participating in local government; which I'm sure you would never do.

Would be nice, in a perfect world, but not all School Departments are amenable to change. Homeschool message boards are filled with people who followed just the route you mentioned. They volunteered, tried to talk to principals, Superintendents and School Boards. They got tired of beating their heads against a wall and realized that they didn't want to sacrifice their children's education just so they could say they were working for change.

39 posted on 11/12/2006 10:02:04 PM PST by SuziQ

To: SuziQ

You bet it was! Our U.S. history summary book was mostly filled with facts (names, dates, treaties, people, places, etc.) and sample essays/DBQs.

40 posted on 11/12/2006 10:03:19 PM PST by rabscuttle385 (Sic Semper Tyrannis * Allen for U.S. Senate in '08)

To: wintertime
I'll go on record as agreeing that math is being poorly taught in public schools and that a student is lucky to have a year with a good teacher and a good math textbook.

I've had the unfortunate experience of having to tutor my daughter in math every year since the 2nd grade to supplement the mostly useless nonsense that passes for math instruction in the public school.

It's the same this year as she's learning pre-algebra in 8th grade and the teacher seems to be fairly intelligent but the book they're using is a hopelessly confusing pile of crap. The authors insist on teaching several types of conceptually based problem solving methods simultaneously and letting the students explore for themselves which method they like best. THIS IS STUPIDITY if you're trying to teach how to solve math problems. I've made it through calculus and I can't make any sense of some of my daughter's homework and I've had to write several notes to her teacher saying that I didn't know how to help with the homework assignment as instructed but that I taught her how to solve the problems correctly by the method I was familiar with.

Her science books have not been much better and I don't see how even a good teacher can be expected to get good results using crap books.
41 posted on 11/12/2006 10:03:22 PM PST by spinestein (DOING THE JOB THE OLD MEDIA USED TO DO)

To: wintertime

Idiocy. But mathematicians are happy to get anything from the NSF, which is much more interested in sinking money into the pit of the various forms of snake oil research.

If you want to improve education, make sure you have nothing to do any University departments of education.

Especially in mathematics. We know what mathematics is. Most math teachers couldn't get a Bachelor's of Science in mathematics.

42 posted on 11/12/2006 10:07:20 PM PST by AmishDude (Libertarians didn't lose it for us. They're losers who work against what they claim to want.)

To: Air Force Brat

What kind of mathematics?

43 posted on 11/12/2006 10:08:20 PM PST by AmishDude (Libertarians didn't lose it for us. They're losers who work against what they claim to want.)

To: WhyisaTexasgirlinPA

I have a better one for you. I am teaching calculus and at a review session somebody asked me a question that required them to divide, say, x^3-3x^2+2x-10 by x-2 and get a quadratic polynomial plus a leftover term.

I said that they learned it in 4th grade and proceeded to do long division of polynomials.

It was as if I wrote Greek on the board. Not only had they not learned this in high school (and many claim to have had "calculus" in high school) they couldn't even understand that is the same thing. It wasn't "long division" as they knew it because it had variables.

There's no teaching of the basics nor is there any creativity. It's the worst of both worlds.

44 posted on 11/12/2006 10:18:18 PM PST by AmishDude (Libertarians didn't lose it for us. They're losers who work against what they claim to want.)

To: jude24

"Oh, Saxon Math doesn't have any typographic errors at all, does it?"

That was NOT a typographical error. It was an error of ignorance. There is a major difference.

45 posted on 11/12/2006 10:19:13 PM PST by NinoFan

To: jude24

And yes, I realize that people should not rely on the answer sections anyway, but an error of ignorance makes me question the system a lot more than a simple typo does.

46 posted on 11/12/2006 10:22:19 PM PST by NinoFan

To: AmishDude

Somewhat unrelated question: What text were you using?

47 posted on 11/12/2006 10:26:14 PM PST by NinoFan

To: wintertime
So...Parents...homeschool, privately school, or be prepared to pay big bucks to the Sylvan Centers or for Kumon.

Kumon is MUCH less than Sylvan and, I think, a lot better. I have three in it now for over 14 months and we'll be starting the 3-year-old soon. It's made a huge difference. It starts the children at the level that they're really at and then relies on repetition and gradually increasing difficulty to move them forward. The 4th grader went from barely being able count on his fingers at the beginning of the year to sailing through 100 problems correctly in 4 minutes on a timed evaluation (usual time 6-10 minutes). In one year his reading went from kindergarten to fairly fluent. I think he's probably still about two years behind but at this rate he'll catch up soon. Two years ago they barely spoke English, only French, Kran, and a patois form of English. Now they're all pretty fluent. It's just a matter of not letting the public schools screw them up along the way.
48 posted on 11/12/2006 10:30:49 PM PST by aruanan

To: NinoFan

We use Varberg, but that's really just a topic outline for me.

The new books come with these interactive problem-solving programs that you can use online. They're useful for me. Students can get individual help even in a huge lecture class (which I have two of now).

49 posted on 11/12/2006 10:31:00 PM PST by AmishDude (Libertarians didn't lose it for us. They're losers who work against what they claim to want.)

To: WhyisaTexasgirlinPA
Another scenario had this lattice work looking grid but I couldn't even figure that one out!

I think this refers to Pick's Theorem.

For some reason this has become a fixture of elementary math education. I guess because it's fun and unexpected, which makes it suitable for the popular exploration style lesson plans, as here.

There's nothing particularly wrong with it, but it does seem like a confusing approach to simple area concepts. It's simple, but why is it true? Note the lesson plan doesn't address this, and expects students to accept it because it seems to work. The proof requires a fair degree of sophistication.

Perhaps it's not going too far to see an insidious purpose behind it, namely mystification. You rejected it because you "couldn't figure it out", but the children are being taught that they should not expect to understand how or why it works, and that is math.

50 posted on 11/12/2006 10:39:22 PM PST by dr_lew