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DNA from Neanderthal leg shows distant split
Reuters ^ | Wed Nov 15, 2006 | Maggie Fox

Posted on 11/15/2006 2:09:22 PM PST by Pharmboy


An undated photograph shows the inside of the Vindija cave
in Croatia, where a leg bone from a male Neanderthal
was found and and used to sequence DNA by researchers who on
Wednesdauy said it shows that Neanderthals are truly distant
relatives of modern humans who interbred rarely, if at all,
with our own immediate ancestors. (Johannes Krause- Max-
Planck Institute of Evolutionary Anthropology/Handout/Reuters)

Researchers have sequenced DNA from the leg bone of a Neanderthal man who died 38,000 years ago and said on Wednesday it shows the Neanderthals are truly distant relatives of modern humans who interbred rarely, if at all, with our own immediate ancestors.

They estimate that modern humans and Neanderthals split from a common ancestor at least 370,000 years ago, and possibly 500,000 years ago, although we share 99.95 percent of our DNA.

"We see no evidence of mixing 40,000, 30,000 years ago in Europe. We don't exclude it, but see no evidence," Edward Rubin of the U.S. Department of Energy Joint Genome Institute in Walnut Creek, California, who led one study, told reporters.

This conflicts with some evidence from other researchers, including a team who said earlier this month that humans may have inherited a brain gene from Neanderthals.

The researchers reported their findings jointly in the journals Nature and Science.

Rubin's team used one method to isolate and sequence part of the Neanderthal's DNA, while another team, led by Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Leipzig, Germany, used a separate method to sequence a much larger amount.

Paabo was the first scientist to find and sequence Neanderthal DNA, in 1997, and first suggested that Neanderthals did not mix with modern humans.

"I think the sequence data will serve as a DNA time machine that will tell us about biology and aspects that we will never be able to get from their bones and a limited number of associated artifacts," Rubin said.

Neanderthals and modern humans are both descended from Homo erectus, which left Africa and spread around the world about 1.5 million years ago.

LIVING SIDE BY SIDE

Neanderthals lived in Europe and the Middle East until about 30,000 years ago. Cro-Magnon people, the ancestors of modern humans, started a second wave of migration out of Africa about 10,000 years earlier.

One huge question is how closely they interacted. Paabo's and Rubin's genetic analysis both suggest there was little sexual contact, at least according to the genes from this one male found at the back of a cave in Croatia.

Paabo's team sorted through 70 Neanderthal specimens before they found a bone well-preserved enough to provide DNA. They took the tiniest samples they could to preserve the valuable bones.

They know it was a male because the DNA has a Y chromosome. Females have two X chromosomes.

Paabo's team used a gene sequencer made by 454 Life Sciences Corporation, a majority-owned subsidiary of CuraGen Corporation. He said they have refined their methods and hope to have a complete genetic sequence within two years.

They said the Neanderthal sequences are 99.95 percent identical to human DNA sequences. This compares to about a 98 percent similarity between humans and chimpanzees, who split from a common ancestor 6 million to 7 million years ago.

Three-way comparisons among the human, chimpanzee and Neanderthal genomes should shed light on what makes modern humans unique, experts agreed.

Rubin and other experts stressed that while full sequences of the human genome are available, very little is understood about what the code actually means.

"We have the book but we haven't yet read it," Rubin said.

They found, for instance, sequences linked with eye color but cannot read the code to tell what color Neanderthal eyes were.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: dna; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; humanevolution; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
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Perhaps this settles that issue...but something tells me no.
1 posted on 11/15/2006 2:09:25 PM PST by Pharmboy
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To: blam; SunkenCiv; thefactor; martin_fierro; aculeus; jennyp; Coyoteman

Roast duck with mango salsa ping...


2 posted on 11/15/2006 2:10:58 PM PST by Pharmboy (Tagline on vacation)
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To: Pharmboy
IBTGCP

In before the Geico commercial posts.

NFP

3 posted on 11/15/2006 2:12:51 PM PST by Notforprophet (Democrats have stood their own arguments on their heads so often that they now stand for nothing.)
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To: Pharmboy
The idea that there was no intermixing is really hard to believe when one sees all of the freaky stuff that is available on the internet.

The "gene swap" would have been going on if for nothing more than boredom.

4 posted on 11/15/2006 2:14:36 PM PST by glorgau
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To: Pharmboy

Good article! Thanks for the ping.

Coyote


5 posted on 11/15/2006 2:15:19 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Notforprophet

Sorry, you were too late :P


6 posted on 11/15/2006 2:15:48 PM PST by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: glorgau

I think boredom is more of a modern, er, luxury.


7 posted on 11/15/2006 2:17:13 PM PST by Dark Skies ("He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that" ... John Stuart Mill)
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To: Pharmboy
Researchers have sequenced DNA from the leg bone of a Neanderthal man who died 38,000 years ago......

Weird. That can't be possible since we recently had a posting telling us the Earth was just a bit over 6000 years old.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1725156/posts

8 posted on 11/15/2006 2:17:38 PM PST by edpc (Violence is ALWAYS a solution. Maybe not the right one....but a solution nonetheless)
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To: glorgau
The idea that there was no intermixing is really hard to believe when one sees all of the freaky stuff that is available on the internet.

LOL.

9 posted on 11/15/2006 2:17:54 PM PST by SIDENET (Everybody was kung-fu fighting)
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To: Pharmboy
What about the Reptilians?

I smell a cover-up. /sarc

10 posted on 11/15/2006 2:19:50 PM PST by peyton randolph (No man knows the day nor the hour of The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief.)
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To: edpc

Good catch. Obviously put there to test our faith and confuse us. I won't be fooled ;-)


11 posted on 11/15/2006 2:20:28 PM PST by mgstarr
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To: Pharmboy
Your condescension is so uncalled for...
12 posted on 11/15/2006 2:21:58 PM PST by johnny7 ("We took a hell of a beating." -'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell)
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To: Pharmboy
I am confused now because I understood it was believed that red hair, fair skin and certain genetic disorders were traced to neanderthal traits. Is this now going to be debunked?
13 posted on 11/15/2006 2:24:13 PM PST by miliantnutcase ("If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." -ichabod1)
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To: Pharmboy

Beowulf and his cousins fought Neaderthals. Seems reasonable.


14 posted on 11/15/2006 2:27:04 PM PST by kinghorse (I calls them like I sees them)
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To: Dark Skies

I don't think so. History chanel had a show that concluded cave men spent very little time gathering food - it was pretty abundant.


15 posted on 11/15/2006 2:34:44 PM PST by patton (Sanctimony frequently reaps its own reward.)
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To: Pharmboy
Neanderthals have genome chunk sequenced

18:00 15 November 2006
NewScientist.com news service

Dan Jones

Outside the Vindija cave in Croatia (Image: Johannes Krause / Max-Planck-Institute of evolutionary Anthropology)

What are the genetic changes that set us apart from our Neanderthal cousins? Although the ancient race is long extinct, we may soon know the answers.

More than one million base pairs of fossilised Neanderthal DNA have now been sequenced – the most of any extinct organism – thanks to a new high-throughput sequencing technique well-suited to handling old, degraded DNA.

Two research teams collaborated closely on the project – the first steps towards sequencing the Neanderthal genome – in a marked difference to the competitive race to for the human genome.

Both teams used the same 38,000-year-old Neanderthal specimen, discovered in Croatia, from which to extract DNA and report their findings on Wednesday in the journals Nature and Science, respectively.

Common ancestor

The sequence suggests that humans and Neanderthals probably began to diverge about 600,000 years ago, and that our common ancestor lived in a small population comprising just 3000 individuals.

One group, led by palaeogeologist Svante Paabo at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, Germany, used the rapid new "direct sequencing approach" on DNA culled from the ancient hominid’s thighbone. The technique was developed by research collaborators 45 Life Sciences, based in Branford, Connecticut, US.

The other team, led by geneticist Eddy Rubin at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Walnut Creek, California, US, used a more traditional sequencing method involving cloning DNA using bacteria to generate 630,000 base pairs of the Neanderthal sequence.

Time difference

The studies only explored a tiny fraction of the full genome, and so the insights they provide are limited, so far. But both teams were able to use their results to estimate how long ago humans and Neanderthals shared a common ancestor.

Paabo’s group puts the date at around 516,000 years ago, while Rubin’s team reaches a slightly older date of 706,000 years ago. Both estimates have large errors of margin that in fact overlap, so the dates are broadly compatible.

One of the major problems confronting efforts to sequence such ancient DNA is contamination, both from microbial DNA and, more significantly, from modern human DNA, which could be confused with Neanderthal sequences. Researchers in both teams used a number of tests to ensure that they were working with genuine Neanderthal DNA, however.

“This is proof of principle that we can recover nuclear genome sequences from Neanderthals,” says Richard Green, one of Paabo’s team. We should have the full genome sequenced within two years," he says.

Journal reference: Nature (DOI: 10.1038/nature05336), and Science (vol 314, p 1113)

16 posted on 11/15/2006 2:41:08 PM PST by blam
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To: miliantnutcase
"I am confused now because I understood it was believed that red hair, fair skin and certain genetic disorders were traced to neanderthal traits."

Click Here: The Neanderthal Theory

17 posted on 11/15/2006 2:44:05 PM PST by blam
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To: Notforprophet

"That's so condescending."

18 posted on 11/15/2006 2:44:24 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: blam

Thanks for the link! Now I remember visiting it in another thread a while back. Good read.


19 posted on 11/15/2006 2:47:25 PM PST by miliantnutcase ("If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." -ichabod1)
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To: Pharmboy

"Roast duck with mango salsa ping..."

This type of response, is exactly the level that this deserves. Nothing more. Kudos to the roast duck with mango salsa reply.


20 posted on 11/15/2006 2:51:33 PM PST by mutley
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To: kinghorse
***Beowulf and his cousins fought Neaderthals. Seems reasonable.***

Sounds like the plot from the novel "Eaters of the Dead"(13th Warrior).
21 posted on 11/15/2006 3:11:31 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar
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To: Pharmboy

Nope, doesn't. Appears to be another mtDNA comparison, which doesn't yield relevant info, except to say, oh, maybe we don't have any mtDNA samples showing the same line of descent. This isn't particularly illuminating considering how few of us have our mtDNA sequenced. Also, the sample size in the 1997 study involved fewer than 400 base pairs (out of a presumed 16,000+ base pairs in the living original), and this isn't going to be much better, could even be worse, because this is an older sample.


22 posted on 11/15/2006 4:20:42 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, November 13, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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The Neandertal Enigma
by James Shreeve
Frayer's own reading of the record reveals a number of overlooked traits that clearly and specifically link the Neandertals to the Cro-Magnons. One such trait is the shape of the opening of the nerve canal in the lower jaw, a spot where dentists often give a pain-blocking injection. In many Neandertal, the upper portion of the opening is covered by a broad bony ridge, a curious feature also carried by a significant number of Cro-Magnons. But none of the alleged 'ancestors of us all' fossils from Africa have it, and it is extremely rare in modern people outside Europe." [pp 126-127]

23 posted on 11/15/2006 4:29:09 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, November 13, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Critchton rehashes the ancient story. Tales of giants and monsters are just too prevalent in literature and art to not have some basis in truth. From Grendel to Goliath to Cyclops to the Giants Jack killed. it's always there, a battle between homo sapien and some big ole nasty flavor of upright critter.


24 posted on 11/15/2006 4:52:16 PM PST by kinghorse (I calls them like I sees them)
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To: AdmSmith; AnalogReigns; caryatid; Celtjew Libertarian; CobaltBlue; concentric circles; ...
Genetic
Genealogy
Send FReepmail if you want on/off GGP list
Marty = Paternal Haplogroup O(2?)(M175)
Maternal Haplogroup H
GG LINKS:
African Ancestry
DNAPrint Genomics
FamilyTree DNA
mitosearch
Nat'l Geographic Genographic Project
Oxford Ancestors
RelativeGenetics
Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation
Trace Genetics
ybase
ysearch
The List of Ping Lists

25 posted on 11/15/2006 5:02:59 PM PST by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Pharmboy
Edward Rubin of the U.S. Department of Energy Joint Genome Institute in Walnut Creek, California, who led one study

WTF? Dept. of Energy?

26 posted on 11/15/2006 5:39:23 PM PST by opinionator
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To: opinionator

Yeah...I did a double take on that myself. What the DOE has to do with the Genome Project is anybody's guess.


27 posted on 11/15/2006 5:46:45 PM PST by Pharmboy (Tagline on vacation)
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To: Pharmboy

BFLR = bump for later reading


28 posted on 11/15/2006 6:06:50 PM PST by Kevmo (Charter member, "What Was My Login club")
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To: Pharmboy

Apparently they had some cash to burn before end of fiscal year when the whole genome project was getting started. Gotta use it or lose it.

Kind of the like the Dept. of Education in the business of feeding people. A way to expand their budget.


29 posted on 11/15/2006 7:06:21 PM PST by dangerdoc (dangerdoc (not actually dangerous any more))
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To: zot

This is the first time I've seen a report on Neandertal DNA.


30 posted on 11/15/2006 7:18:28 PM PST by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: Interesting Times; potlatch


31 posted on 11/15/2006 8:37:36 PM PST by devolve ( _classic_moments_in_Kohn_jobs_)
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To: devolve

So Hagar is out to slay eagles now?


32 posted on 11/15/2006 8:40:51 PM PST by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: potlatch


Closest .gif I could find!


33 posted on 11/15/2006 8:48:42 PM PST by devolve ( _classic_moments_in_Kohn_jobs_)
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To: devolve

34 posted on 11/15/2006 8:51:04 PM PST by potlatch (Does a clean house indicate that there is a broken computer in it?)
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To: Interesting Times

I don't believe that Cro-Magnon man came "out of Africa". Just don't believe it.


35 posted on 11/15/2006 8:57:19 PM PST by flaglady47 (thinking out loud)
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To: miliantnutcase

It's been debunked practically from the very beginning, but the true believers will never let go it seems.


36 posted on 11/15/2006 9:10:13 PM PST by AntiGuv ("..I do things for political expediency.." - Sen. John McCain on FOX News)
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Just adding this to the GGG catalog, not sending a general distribution. There have been about four topics on this recent development.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

37 posted on 11/15/2006 9:40:40 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, November 13, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Interesting Times

Thanks for the ping. As they test more markers on the Y chromosome, they should be able to establish a DNA profile (haplotype) that can show with a stated level of confidence how many generations back to the most recent common ancestor.


38 posted on 11/15/2006 10:02:41 PM PST by zot (GWB -- the most slandered man of this decade)
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To: zot
As they test more markers on the Y chromosome, they should be able to establish a DNA profile (haplotype) that can show with a stated level of confidence how many generations back to the most recent common ancestor.

That may be how they calculated this:

They estimate that modern humans and Neanderthals split from a common ancestor at least 370,000 years ago, and possibly 500,000 years ago, although we share 99.95 percent of our DNA.

39 posted on 11/16/2006 6:56:05 AM PST by Interesting Times (ABCNNBCBS -- yesterday's news.)
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To: GSlob

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1739223/posts?page=22#22


40 posted on 11/16/2006 11:07:06 AM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, November 16, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Pharmboy
"Roast duck with mango salsa ping"
Sorry for the question, but due to my gross ignorance of the cultural background [English is my second language] the "roast duck with mango salsa" thing, which I've seen on FR repeatedly, escapes me. Could you please enlighten?
41 posted on 11/16/2006 11:16:17 AM PST by GSlob
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To: Pharmboy

>>truly distant relatives of modern humans who interbred rarely, if at all, with our own immediate ancestors<<

Interesting statement.

Reminds me of an old joke: "Montana! Where men are men, and sheep are nervous."

Then there are arab/camel jokes and African/monkey jokes.

IOW, if they could, they did.


42 posted on 11/16/2006 11:23:30 AM PST by RobRoy
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To: edpc

That is because the 38,000 year figure, although stated as fact, is really only a deduction/opinion.


43 posted on 11/16/2006 11:27:21 AM PST by RobRoy
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To: GSlob
the "roast duck with mango salsa" thing

It's a quote from a Geico Insurance commercial. The commercial says that Geico Insurance is so easy to apply for, even a caveman can do it. Next scene shows an exec meeting with two cavemen in a swanky restaurant to apologize for the 'ethical' slur. One of the cavemen orders "roast duck with mango salsa" from the waiter.

44 posted on 11/16/2006 1:37:12 PM PST by yhwhsman ("Never give in--never, never, never, never, in nothing great or small..." -Sir Winston Churchill)
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To: Interesting Times

I'm not sure they have sequenced enough Y-DNA to support the statement that we share 99.95 percent of our DNA. To prove that percent would take 100 percent sequencing of both human and Neanderthal DNA.


45 posted on 11/16/2006 6:55:30 PM PST by zot (GWB -- the most slandered man of this decade)
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To: GSlob
Happy to help out. Click here.
46 posted on 11/16/2006 11:18:44 PM PST by Pharmboy (Tagline on vacation)
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To: RobRoy
That is because the 38,000 year figure, although stated as fact, is really only a deduction/opinion.

It's not an "opinion," it's the actual age of the remains, as determined by radiocarbon dating. In fact, the Vindija specimens have been subject to rigorous date testing by a number of independent teams.

Saying that radiocarbon dating is an "opinion" is as asinine as telling the police officer who pulled you over that the "80 mph" on his radar gun is an "opinion." Actually, more asinine, because radar guns are less accurate than radiocarbon dating and are not operated in controlled, laboratory conditions.

47 posted on 11/17/2006 7:55:52 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: zot; Interesting Times

They can make the statement by taking a random sample of DNA sequenced so far and comparing it to the human genome. Obviously that number may move as more is sequenced, but as mutations tend to be pretty randomly distributed, it seems likely that that number will hold.


48 posted on 11/17/2006 7:58:44 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker

The cop was there.


49 posted on 11/17/2006 8:30:30 AM PST by RobRoy
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To: Alter Kaker

>>Saying that radiocarbon dating is an "opinion" is as asinine as telling the police officer who pulled you over that the "80 mph" on his radar gun is an "opinion." Actually, more asinine, because radar guns are less accurate than radiocarbon dating and are not operated in controlled, laboratory conditions.<<

I disagree:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c007.html
http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/06dat5.htm

Also, even those who believe it is accurate only trust it back, say, 50,000 years. And that is assuming none of the issues discussed in my second link above don't hold water. Since nobody was there (unlike the cop with a radar gun), it is all deduction and opinion.


50 posted on 11/17/2006 8:38:38 AM PST by RobRoy
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