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Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate (Rasmussen Poll)
Yahoooo via Rasmussen ^ | 11/20/06

Posted on 11/20/2006 8:24:45 AM PST by areafiftyone

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To: lady lawyer

"and think it isn't too much different today, is it?"

Nope:

"12 This is the account of Abraham's son Ishmael . . . And they lived in hostility toward all their brothers."

And, of course, Joshua's descendants are still being punished for failing to wipe out the Gibeonites.


541 posted on 11/21/2006 1:14:02 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I'm sure you know that, every year at the Hajj, the Muslims remind themselves of how the mother of the Israelites threw the mother of the Arabs out into the wilderness to die, and that they still refer to Jews as "birthright stealers." They wander back and forth in what it supposed to be the same valley where Hagar wandered with Ishmael. For them, the story of Abraham is as if it happened yesterday.

Did you know that their biggest eid (feast)celebrates the occasion where Abraham took his son up to the mountain, and was stopped by an angel before he sacrificed him? The details are all the same, except the son is Ishmael, not Isaac.


542 posted on 11/21/2006 1:19:08 PM PST by lady lawyer
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To: lady lawyer
" meant to ask you, how do you prove your lineage back to Aaron? Are there written records? Oral histories?"

Well, we have the name, tradition and records, but get the "official" status because my father's father was a prominent teacher back in the day and buried with all the symbols ("Vulcan" hands on the gravestone), etc.

More important to me, all the male cousins were all part of a study showing that the Sephardi Kohanim shared the same "Y" chromosome linkage as the Ashkenazim Kohanim --- basically showing that we all had one common male ancestor, circa 1400 BC. You could probably google "Kohanim Y Chromosome" and get the study.

Now, could that be Aaron or someone else? Who knows!
543 posted on 11/21/2006 1:29:17 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Re goats.

I was in Sudan and Egypt. Goats wander all over the streets. They eat garbage. So they help keep the streets and little cleaner, and provide a cheap source of meat.

While we were there, we were hosted very graciously, and most of the food we were served was pretty westernized. Except at one dinner, at the home of Hassan Turabi, who was under house arrest at the time. He served a meal that was unapologetically traditionally Sudanese. On one platter was an entire, very small cooked goat. Head and all.

There was also a sliced cheese that looked like sliced cauliflower. I was sitting about ten feet from him, and he was talking with our group. I put a piece of that cheese in my mouth and thought I was going to die. It was fermented or something. I couldn't spit it out because I didn't want to insult him, and it took all the self control I could muster to chew it up and swallow it, without tears running from my eyes.


544 posted on 11/21/2006 1:31:32 PM PST by lady lawyer
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To: lady lawyer

"The details are all the same, except the son is Ishmael, not Isaac."

Yeah, and I think they have Judas dying on the Cross and Jesus escaping by the back door. (Or something like that.)

They seem to do the "switch" a lot.


545 posted on 11/21/2006 1:34:34 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I didn't know about the Judas/Jesus story. Is that in the Koran?


546 posted on 11/21/2006 1:35:38 PM PST by lady lawyer
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To: Colofornian

>>no other prominent religion believes that dad and mom gods engage in celestial sex

Neither I not the Church (to my knowledge) teach this, Source?

People swear all the time, God the Father and Christ get maligned in every mouth that thinks they are cool, tough, or just rebellious. God didn’t want to have his wife trashed that way so he has never told us her name. (As an aside, swearing is not common in Chinese because it takes too long to describe which god you are swearing by.) People could swear by saying heavenly mother, but the ring just isn’t there. Mormons do teach about her, sing about her, and talk about her, but it is a subject held in much reverence and your light treatment of it here is very offensive. How would you feel if your mother was being described in the terms you so casually throw out here?

>>So literal sex becomes important in heaven

Did you question your parents as to there favorite positions? That like how god creates Spirit children is simply none of your business.

>>"literal paternity"

Can we mere mortals recreate a virgin birth? (Yes) then how much easier for God to be the literal Father of Jesus Christ without any of the “Naughty bits” you seem to want to impute to our brains being neccisary.

>>ya gotta wonder

Nope, I don’t wonder at all, I don’t spend much time thinking about it, and I think Mary would be very embarrassed to have you thinking about her like that. Her son might just be put out too. (You don’t spit into the wind, you don’t pull on superman’s’ cape and you don’t mess around with Jim)

I don’t know, no one has said how the actual deed was done, and it’s really none of our business, Jesus is half God so that death must be voluntary, but is possible, without sin so death is unjust, thus allowing Jesus Christ to reverse Adam’s transgression. You want to know the details, you ask him. I am just waiting for you to say the whole thing is just too convenient, like you would if it was purely Mormon doctrine.


547 posted on 11/21/2006 1:40:07 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: lady lawyer

I think so, but I say that with great trepedation.

I read the koran (English version I got free when stationed in Saudi) back in my "searching" days one time, very quickly.

It pretty much was a blur of "I call this B.S."

I just recall it being very intellectually inconsistent, and inconsistent with God's nature: He practically beats us over the head with Himself and what He wants; keeps NO secrets.

In contrast, the Old Testament/New Testament fit together like a glove to me (especially the Book of Matthew, which is the book for knowledgeable Jews to read, if they care to learn about Christianity).


548 posted on 11/21/2006 1:42:47 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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To: P-Marlowe
You continue to ascribe motives to everything I say as "Anti-mormon" or "Anti-Romney" when the title of this thread is Election 2008: 43% Would Never Vote for Mormon Candidate and my posts have been an attempt to describe my opinions as to WHY this may be.

I can't see any reason to continue trying to have a dialogue on this under your terms. If you can provide proof that my statements will NOT be a factor in the decision-making of voters, please do so but your ad hominem attacks such as ( I would never in a million years have interpreted that oath as you did. I see no contradiction between that oath and the oath to uphold and defend the constitution, and anybody who does is just acting on blind prejudice.) do not convince me that voters will have the same interpretation that you have.

I repeat, opponents of Romney WILL make his religion a factor in the primary and general campaigns, and my previous posts detail some of the possible lines of attack that will be used. If 43% are already considering his religion a detriment, there is a pretty high mountain to be crossed.

549 posted on 11/21/2006 1:47:18 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Re:Terrorists: Realize that it has nothing to do with what we have done but with what they want.)
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To: AppyPappy

>>There is no sin in Heaven so that is impossible.

Isa. 14: 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Revelations 12 contains an account of the War in heaven before the world was. ( http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/12/4#4 )

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The dragon is Satan (or Lucifer) who was cast out of heaven for rebellion (sin) Where did you get the idea that there was no sin in heaven?

>>The Jews believed in transmigration of souls which is basically reincarnation. So you would be punished for something you did in your previous life. Messed up stuff.

Yes, I read about the Transmigration stuff, it made my head hurt at the time. (grin I’m older and more resistant to illogic now). That was one of their beliefs; they also believed in the pre-existence, it depended on which sect. But the apostles did not ask who did sin this man in a previous life, or his parents that he was born blind. They asked if he sinned before birth.


550 posted on 11/21/2006 1:53:23 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
Just to lighten things up. (I hope this link works; if not, I'll re-do it.)
551 posted on 11/21/2006 1:54:17 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Ah, here we go:

http://www.break.com/index/door_to_door_atheists_bother_mormons.html


552 posted on 11/21/2006 1:55:21 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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To: Colofornian

Syllogism: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Syllogism

A: Christ is our older brother
B: Lucifer was right up in the kingdom and didn’t like being second fiddle to Jesus. (merit, not age is important)
C: No logical deduction for the age of Lucifer can be made from these two pieces of information, but you can’t tell his age from this.

Is he our brother, yes, is he a good guy (your kidding right?), was he rebellious? absolutely

but is he my elder brother? WE DON”T KNOW!


553 posted on 11/21/2006 3:07:36 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: Colofornian

When the prophet speaks and says “God said” it’s gospel, when General authority speaks and says “God said” it’s also gospel. Any body else, pray about it!

As a general rule, if it can’t be found on LDS.org, it’s not cannon of the church.


554 posted on 11/21/2006 3:13:03 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
Re: celestial sex. Neither I nor the Church (to my knowledge) teach this. Source>

Fact #1: LDS teach that spirit babies are born in heaven, right?

Fact #2: In fact, generations of gods have been "begotten" in this same manner. (See Snow quote below)

Fact #3: LDS teaches that the Heavenly Father is not Spirit (contrary to John 4:24 and other passages) but has a body of flesh and bones (and I would presume wings & feathers, too, since the OT talks about Him having that, too).

Fact #4: According to Genesis, God created man in his own image (Christians would say "spiritual image," but LDS include physical image here, reproductive system and all). Therefore, in making God to be in the image of man, God has a functional reproductive system that is not barren.

How do we know that LDS extrapolate God's reproductive system as being responsible for celestial sex and ensuing spirit births?

Exhibit A: LDS' shadowy doctrine of a Mother God, which LDS prophets acknowledge but don't emphasize.

Exhibit B: Take a look at LDS apostle Bruce McConkie's "Mormon Doctrine," p. 547 (published with approval of LDS general authorities, of which McConkie was one at the time):

"The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal Parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the Spirit."

There ya have it. Just as the birth of Jesus had no "mysticism" but was a "natural occurrence" between Elohim and Mary, "the Father God was the literal Parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the Spirit."

McConkie equates a natural physical birth in the same "literal" terms as the literal Spirit birth of Jesus in heaven.

********************************************

Documentation of earlier "facts":

For those who don't know LDS teachings on Fact #1 above, here they are:

Brigham Young: "We were first begotten as spirit babies in heaven and then born naturally on earth” (Journal of Discourse, Vol. 4, p. 218).

Contemporary elaboration of being birth to parent gods in heaven via LDS Purpose of Life pamphlet: "Life for you did not begin here on earth. You lived before you were born you will live on in the spirit world after your mortal life is ended. We all once lived in the presence of God the eternal father. In the world before your were a spirit child of his. With this divine parentage, your destiny, through righteous living, is to become like your Father in Heaven and return to his presence. In your life before birth, before the earth was created God presented a plan to his children for their advancement. You were free to accept or reject this plan of salvation. Those spirit children who accepted his plan were given the opportunity to live on earth; those who rejected his plan were not privileged to enter mortality.”

Former LDS proph Lorenzo Snow:

"We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten on a previous heavenly world by His Father; and again, He was begotten by a still more ancient Father, and so on, from generation to generation." (Millennial Star, vol. 54)

555 posted on 11/21/2006 3:18:46 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: MeanWestTexan

Once you got past his whiney tirade about sleeping in to noon it was kind of funny, if he had just said we wanted to see how Mormons would react to Atheists proselyteing to them, and actually had some good lines it would have been a real hoot. I think the premise is good, but it should be re-shot (ho whiny part that goes on for ever) and some fully lines like “are you tired of being a Zionist crusader on a mission of hate” and having the lady say “I support...” and he says “so you are...” that was funny. Get some "Missionaries" who can do this right and you got a youtube sleeper here


556 posted on 11/21/2006 3:34:19 PM PST by DelphiUser ("You can lead a man to knowledge, but you can't make him think")
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To: DelphiUser
I don’t know, no one has said how the actual deed was done, and it’s really none of our business...

Not true. Many LDS general authorities have indeed "made it their business" for their followers to know how Mary was impregnated:

Brigham Young, 1860 speech: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood-was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers."

Former proph, Ezra Taft Benson: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father."

Former proph Joseph F. Smith: "Christ is not the Son of the Holy Ghost, but of the Father." Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 1, Page 18-20. "...how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father. We must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ...God the Eternal Father is literally the father of Jesus Christ." (Box Elder Stake Conference, 12-20-1914, as cited in Brigham City Box Elder News, 1-28-1915, pp. 1-2).

Apostle Bruce McConkie, "Mormon Doctrine," p. 742: "God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man, an immortal Personage. And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God and that designation means what it says." p. 546: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers."

...how much easier for God to be the literal Father of Jesus Christ without any of the “Naughty bits” you seem to want to impute to our brains being neccisary...I don’t spend much time thinking about it...

Well, in light of the above quotes, I guess your general authorities have delved too far into the "Naughty bits", eh?

and I think Mary would be very embarrassed to have you thinking about her like that. Her son might just be put out too.

You know what, I agree with you 100%!!!

The fact that all of these LDS general authorities keep describing God the Father coming down to commit "natural action" (Brigham Young), to yield a birth "in the most literal sense" (Ezra Taft Benson & Joseph F. Smith), and that "There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events...Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Apostle McConkie)...I think all of this is disgusting and VERY DISTURBING TO CHRIST AND his earthly mother, Mary.

I'll betcha one other thing: This is not "Missionary Lesson Plan #1" for LDS missionaries visiting heavy Roman Catholic countries like Latin America. (As a matter of act, it's probably not even in the LDS member lesson plans in those countries, either!!!).

There ya have it. More "tucked away" doctrines of the church.

557 posted on 11/21/2006 3:38:04 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser
but is he my elder brother? WE DON”T KNOW!

Well, at least we're getting progress here. We've gone from outright denial that Lucifer is the elder brother of LDS folks to agnosticism ("we don't know").

All I know in an earthly sense is that if you call someone your "elder brother" and I know he's also my elder brother, and I know he was created before me...well, it doesn't take a genealogical expert to figure that one out.

558 posted on 11/21/2006 3:41:52 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: DelphiUser

The Jewish explanation was that he sinned in a previous life.


559 posted on 11/21/2006 3:58:04 PM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: DelphiUser

I liked it, mainly b/c every Aussie I know is generally very hung over until noon Sat/Sun.

But you're right, it would be better even if someone just delete the whiney part in the front.


560 posted on 11/21/2006 4:14:52 PM PST by MeanWestTexan (Kol Hakavod Lezahal)
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