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From Russia, minus love
The Age ^ | November 25, 2006 | Vanora Bennett

Posted on 11/24/2006 5:34:19 PM PST by A. Pole

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1 posted on 11/24/2006 5:34:22 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: A. Pole

Polonium-210 [the most recent diagnosis as per poison used] is available in the corner mom and pop stores, one presumes. Barbari sunt, barbarice egit. Not paricularly smart barbari, either.


2 posted on 11/24/2006 5:38:12 PM PST by GSlob
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To: A. Pole
Nukes or not. Russia should start being viewed as a 'rogue state'. The Euros wont go along with it as long as Gazprom has them by the balls though.
3 posted on 11/24/2006 5:38:41 PM PST by kinoxi
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To: ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; arete; ...
It is quite obvious that smart assasins would not use such stupid method and would pick more valuable target.

For the conspiracy theorists: read the Possessed (or Devils) by Dostoevsky, you have such a clumsy murder (of Shatov) explained there.

4 posted on 11/24/2006 5:40:52 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: kinoxi
Russia should start being viewed as a 'rogue state'.

This might be the real objective of this death. Do you think that Putin is really so stupid as to order something bizarre like that at the time of EU/Russia meeting?

5 posted on 11/24/2006 5:42:55 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: A. Pole
If you wanted to make the death look natural, or just to keep things simple, you would presumably avoid the restaurant scenario.

If you wanted the death to be obviously contrived and horrible so as to act as a warning to others, you'd opt for the restaurant scenario. Possibly the author does not remember the "Cold" War. It was always this nasty.

6 posted on 11/24/2006 5:42:56 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: A. Pole

I would presume that one who signs on with the KGB/FSB in the first place knows the way they play. Only in America are 'leakers' feted on the media and given book deals; in the rest of the world, well, Polonium happens.


7 posted on 11/24/2006 5:43:45 PM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, ATF and DEA)
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To: A. Pole

Werent we led to believe Russia had gone through this amazing transformation to a gentler kinder totalitarinism?


8 posted on 11/24/2006 5:44:12 PM PST by claptrap (We've found a Witch can we burn her?)
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To: A. Pole

Do you think Putin is innocent here?


9 posted on 11/24/2006 5:44:40 PM PST by kinoxi
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To: kinoxi
Do you think Putin is innocent here?

I think that he is way too smart to do such thing.

10 posted on 11/24/2006 5:45:55 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: A. Pole
That's interesting. I disagree, but find it interesting. The consolidation of power has been clear for years. These deaths (plural) are perfectly in line with the tyrannical actions displayed previously (and continuously) by this regime.
11 posted on 11/24/2006 5:49:43 PM PST by kinoxi
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To: A. Pole
I think that he is way too smart to do such thing.

Eh...a public assassination can be a tool of diplomacy if you're of a certain mindset. Per Machiavelli it's best to be loved, but if you can't be loved, then being feared also works.

12 posted on 11/24/2006 5:54:20 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Billthedrill

Exactly. The author obviously doesn't understand the way Russian operatives operate. They'd slit your throat right in front of your Momma, and make polite conversation with her while doing it too.


13 posted on 11/24/2006 5:55:31 PM PST by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Why can't Republicans stand up to Democrats like they do to terrorists?)
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To: A. Pole
And yet, if many Russia-watchers are to be believed, the country's Federal Security Service (FSB) has carried out just such an assassination.

True Russia watchers would be well aware the FSB does not operate outside of Russia. That is the function of the SVR.
14 posted on 11/24/2006 5:56:08 PM PST by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Oberon
Per Machiavelli it's best to be loved, but if you can't be loved, then being feared also works.

Machiavelli would not recommend cowardly and idiotic methods. He warned that the worst for the ruler is to be despised.

Do you think that Kennedy gained much by trying to poison Castro?

15 posted on 11/24/2006 5:59:23 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: GarySpFc
True Russia watchers would be well aware the FSB does not operate outside of Russia. That is the function of the SVR.

You cannot argue with paranoiacs.

16 posted on 11/24/2006 6:00:07 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: A. Pole
How about this article?

US Department of State seriously interested in Russian oligarch in disgrace, Boris Berezovsky (Assassination of Paul Klebnikov, Forbes Russia Editor)

The former Russian oligarch, who currently resides in England, is suspected to be involved in the assassination of Forbes Russia editor


Russian oligarch in disgrace, Boris Berezovsky, may soon face severe problems. The US State Department is interested in Mr. Berezovsky's activities: the oligarch found himself involved in the case of Paul Klebnikov, a journalist of the US origin, editor of Forbes Russia. Mr. Berezovsky did not even expect that events would take such a turn for him.

Boris Berezovsky and Paul Klebnikov used to have something in common. Paul Klebnikov wrote an article about Berezovsky in the original English version of the magazine, in which he accused the erstwhile Kremlin favorite of many sins, including the implication in the murder of a well-known Russian journalist, Vlad Listyev. Boris Berezovsky sued Forbes in response – he decided to take a legal action against the world-known magazine in England. The magazine eventually had to publish apologies.

This is an excerpt. Please read the rest of the article.
17 posted on 11/24/2006 6:04:56 PM PST by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

LOL - I can see that you remember. And after all, what's to stop them? Unless they're caught in the act it's a perfect crime. It is, of course, possible for a somebody to defect and confess publicly, but that's precisely what this sort of action deters. These guys have been playing this game for a very long time and they were always good at it.


18 posted on 11/24/2006 6:05:35 PM PST by Billthedrill
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To: A. Pole
Machiavelli would not recommend cowardly and idiotic methods.

Well, no. But if it had looked like an accident, then...well...it would have looked like an accident, if you know what I mean.

You could be right. The Russians could always play chess.

19 posted on 11/24/2006 6:06:01 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: A. Pole
You cannot argue with paranoiacs.

Hey! Who are you calling a paranoiac? Who have you be talking to?

Did my wife talk to you?!?

20 posted on 11/24/2006 6:07:14 PM PST by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: Oberon
Who are you calling a paranoiac? Who have you be talking to? Did my wife talk to you?!?

Not yet:) Here you have real paranoiac thread on FR:

Did George W. Bush Kill JFK?

21 posted on 11/24/2006 6:14:43 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: GarySpFc

I found out some interesting information today that seems to be missing (what a shocker!) from the mainstream media in both the US and the UK.

1. Russia and the UK were very close to coming to an extradition treaty agreement. This would put the entire Berezovsky gang under and increased risk of deportation to Russia, or having to relocate to another country at the very least.

2. Letvineko just happened to live right next door to Chechen terrorist Zakayev, who like Letvineko is on the payroll of Team Berezovsky. Even the Dr. who came out earlier in the week and claimed Thallium poisoning works directly for Berezovsky.

3. Russian officials seem to have finally noticed the pattern of these things happening when Putin is having meetings at overseas events. Almost every one of these relates to EU meetings. This goes back to the terrorist attacks on the Moscow subway and two aircraft a few years back as well as the Klebnikov, Politskaya and now Letvineko.

I am increasingly convinced that all of these things are linked. Of course I will not defnitively point the finger at Berezovsky, but he certainly has the clearest motive and the highest beneficiary ratio of any actor.


22 posted on 11/24/2006 6:21:08 PM PST by Timedrifter
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To: Timedrifter

Very interesting!


23 posted on 11/24/2006 6:23:16 PM PST by A. Pole ("Victorious warriors win first & then go to war,while defeated warriors go to war &then seek to win")
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To: A. Pole
Do you think that Putin is really so stupid...

Was Stalin so stupid? This is intimidation. If you cross Putin you die. What is the West going to do about it? Nothing. Putin is not stupid. He is a smart, ruthless dictator.

24 posted on 11/24/2006 6:41:26 PM PST by outofstyle
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To: outofstyle
If you cross Putin you die. What is the West going to do about it? Nothing.

What did Clinton do about Saddam trying to assassinate Former President Bush ?
25 posted on 11/24/2006 7:02:53 PM PST by uncbob
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To: A. Pole
Do you think that Putin is really so stupid as to order something bizarre like that at the time of EU/Russia meeting?

It's completely plausible as it sends a brutal message to all other dissidents. It's not even the slightest bit out of character for Putin and his toadies.

26 posted on 11/24/2006 8:29:00 PM PST by jess35
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To: Oberon
And there aren't a few of us who wouldn't mind seeing a few leakers of national intelligence, and other traitors, meet a similar fate?
27 posted on 11/24/2006 8:36:27 PM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, ATF and DEA)
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To: outofstyle
I've said all along- the Russians (the smarter of them, anyway) know Communism sucks; that is not going to stop them from being Russians. They play chess as a national sport, lost 20 million people withing living memory, and regard an enormous empire at the least and world domination generally as their birthright just as much as we do, and have for far longer. Why anyone would ever expect the Russians to not act like Russians is beyond me; Lenin and Stalin were of a same kind with Ivan the Terrible, in a way. Putin is just as convinced that HE should be head of the world's sole superpower as President Bush is.
28 posted on 11/24/2006 8:44:42 PM PST by RedStateRocker (Nuke Mecca, Deport all illegals, abolish the IRS, ATF and DEA)
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To: Timedrifter; A. Pole; RusIvan; G8 Diplomat; Donna Lee Nardo
Boris keeps popping up in the strangest places. Things are really getting interesting.

Notorious Oligarch Berezovsky Reveals Plans for Coup in Russia

The following is an excerpt.

Wanted Russian tycoon Boris Berezovsky has gone public with his plans to seize power in Russia by force. The London-based oligarch said in an interview with the Ekho Moskvy radio station Wednesday that he had been working on the coup plan for 18 months.

Berezovsky, a notorious critic of Putin’s regime, said he aimed to replace the “anti-constitutional regime” in Russia.

::snip::

Today’s regime would never allow a fair election, Berezovsky added, so the only way out is a coup.

“There is only one way out — a coup, a forced seizure of power,” he said.

The oligarch said he had plenty of supporters.

Continued
29 posted on 11/24/2006 8:54:24 PM PST by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: A. Pole; ex-Texan; Convert from ECUSA; george76; stevie_d_64; Captainpaintball; kinoxi; spanalot; ..

A look at Kremlin critics who have been killed or died mysterious deaths

The Associated Press
Published: November 24th, 2006

Alexander Litvinenko, a former Russian spy who died Thursday after being poisoned with a radioactive substance, accused Russian President Vladimir Putin, calling him "barbaric and ruthless" in a deathbed statement. Several Kremlin critics have fled Russia or been imprisoned during Putin's time in office, and a few, listed below, have been killed or died mysterious deaths.

October 7th, 2006: Journalist Anna Politkovskaya, a fierce critic of the war in Chechnya who exposed human rights abuses by Russian and Kremlin-backed Chechen authorities, is fatally shot in her apartment building. No suspects have been arrested, and Putin has suggested Russians seeking refuge from Russian law enforcement abroad could have been behind it.

Feb. 13th, 2004: Zelimkhan Yandarbiyev, a former separatist president of Chechnya, is killed when a bomb blows his car apart as he leaves a mosque with his son in Qatar. Russian security services deny involvement, but two Russian intelligence agents are convicted in Qatar and later returned to Russia, where authorities suggest they are set free.

July 3rd, 2003: Yuri Shchekochikhin, a liberal lawmaker and journalist who investigated high-level corruption for Novaya Gazeta, Politkovskaya's newspaper, dies after a brief, mysterious ailment that causes him to loose his hair and suffer severe skin problems. Colleagues claim he was poisoned and that his autopsy was not released to relatives.

April 17th, 2003: Sergei Yushenkov, a liberal lawmaker and vocal critic of Putin, the Federal Security Service and the war in Chechnya, is gunned down in Moscow in a killing colleagues called an attack on democratic ideals. Mikhail Kodanyov, chairman a rival branch of his Liberal Russia party backed by self-exiled tycoon Boris Berezovsky, is convicted ordering the slaying and sentenced to 20 years in prison.


30 posted on 11/25/2006 2:14:57 AM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is never free)
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To: M. Espinola
"When an evil empire returns"
What do you mean - "returns", when it has never left? What did Reagan's words "evil empire" mean and refer to? - Landscape? Evil rivers, hills and lakes? Or maybe plants and animals? Evil birch trees and squirrels? Architecture? Cuisine? [Some of it is indeed, atrocious] - of course, not. It was the people there who were evil, or, more specifically, their way of life- how they saw themselves and the world and how they related to that world and to one another - the sociological essence of what Samuel Huntington would call their civilization.
Now, did that empire in 1991 overnight stopped being evil with Yeltsin's declaration of USSR dissolution? - of course, not, for it was populated by the same people who behaved pretty much as before. Nor did it suddenly become evil in 1917. It had been evil even before, but that evil merely became more manifest.
31 posted on 11/25/2006 3:07:17 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob
You are fully correct in your overview. It's always been a despicable place with one beast or the other running the show. The problem is the current beast is arming Islamic madmen and having his vocal critics bumped off one after the other while the West sits there - silent.
32 posted on 11/25/2006 3:27:26 AM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is never free)
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To: M. Espinola

Every regime is an adequate reflection of the socially active part of its population. In simplified form the preceding statement is known as "every people deserves its government". A leader of a rats pack cannot be a lion - he can only be a rat. A beast runs a show, for it is a fundamentally beastly show, and no other show is, was, or will be, possible there, barring transcivilizing.


33 posted on 11/25/2006 3:36:24 AM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob
We are continuously informed by the Putin promoters that 'at least 80% of the Russian population' supports their leader. That population with 70 years of brutal communist indoctrination will receive the results of the one they have sown and defend.


34 posted on 11/25/2006 4:50:35 AM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is never free)
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To: jess35; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; ...
It's not even the slightest bit out of character for Putin and his toadies.

Actually is it out of character. You watch too many Hollywood movies and every foreign leader you do not like looks the same to you - he must be a "second Hitler". Whether Milosevic or Putin or else they are all identical, the same Hollywood cliche.

But the real world is very difference from schematic predicable movies.

35 posted on 11/25/2006 5:57:08 AM PST by A. Pole (Evolution has demonstrated that the optimal IQ is the average IQ !)
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To: A. Pole
Oh do take a massive dose of reality. This is a warning to other dissidents as much as it is a hit on Litvinenko himself. It's a message from the Russian government that they can get anyone, any time, anywhere.

It was a message that was effectively delivered. I know you don your kneepads for Putin on a daily basis, but no one should let you get away with passing this lie off.

Ivan

36 posted on 11/25/2006 6:00:20 AM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
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To: GarySpFc
Today’s regime would never allow a fair election, Berezovsky added, so the only way out is a coup.

Disgusting

37 posted on 11/25/2006 6:00:43 AM PST by A. Pole (Evolution has demonstrated that the optimal IQ is the average IQ !)
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To: M. Espinola; GSlob
It's always been a despicable place with one beast or the other running the show.

Hatred is a very toxic passion.

38 posted on 11/25/2006 6:02:06 AM PST by A. Pole (Evolution has demonstrated that the optimal IQ is the average IQ !)
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To: M. Espinola

I just about have to equate this whole idea of Putin's "gang" to a playground mentality...

The most popular and Toughest (by appearance) kid is going to rule the roost, until the kids that wnat to be on the monkey bars deside topick a few of those supporters off one by one...

Thus the kids on the monkey bars are going to do the same thing when they see the efforts of those that want to get on, so to speak...

Its almost that elementary when you look at its basic parts, its intelligence, and how it illustrates and demonstrates its ability to maintain its power...

There is really nothing democratic about it...And since its overall might and ability to project power and influence is still right up there with our ability, sure, everyone is going to do the things diplomatically to keep things stable...Its the nature of the beast...

And when wars, and rumor of wars, work alongside deals and pacts with a nieghbor to the south of them, begin to flourish...I'm sure a lot of us will tell the rest of the "head in the sand'ers":

"See, we told you so!"

I'd start looking at whom might come up after Putin's demise to see the true nature of what is to come and what has been driving this situation...(just a thought)

Putin is just the catalyst in this mix...


39 posted on 11/25/2006 6:37:21 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: Billthedrill

Option:

Mugged and stabbed. No questions asked, stabb him, take wallet. Pure mug gone bad.


people, does anyone watches CSI? Scores of ideas, and noone would link a mureder to Russia.


40 posted on 11/25/2006 7:15:01 AM PST by kronos77 (-www.savekosovo.org- and -www.kosovo.net- Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: M. Espinola; GSlob; Thunder90; familyop; Pelham; djf; MeekOneGOP; A. Pole; ex-Texan; ...
I wrote Edward Jay Epstein (EdwardJayEpstein.Com) about my suspicion that Gordievski may have been involved in Litvinenko's murder. He wrote me back a very short but intriguing response, adding a whole new possibility that I had not thought of. Here's his response:

I believe he accidentally poisened himself handling smuggled polonium 210

Regards

Ed Epstein

And Epstein, of course, could be completely wrong, as he did not provide me a shred of evidence to back up his claim. But let's say Epstein knows something we don't know. Who would Litvinenko have been smuggling polonium 210 for (and why)?

41 posted on 11/25/2006 7:49:14 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: M. Espinola; All

I wrote Ed Epstein back for evidence, here's his reply:

What business are 6 nogoodniks doing at a sushi bar other than a deal? Who would use anything so valuable to kill sdmeone when a knife would do the trick.

Regards
Ed Epstein
www.edwardjayepstein.com


42 posted on 11/25/2006 7:58:32 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts; All

I wrote Epstein back and asked him what these "nogoodniks would want with polonium 210. If Epstein's suspicion is correct, I was thinking they might be the middle men in a dirty bomb plot. Here's his reply:

polonium 210 is critical to building nukes so it controls chain reaction. The real question is what was an exKGB agent doing in proxinity to it--not who killed him

Regards
Ed Epstein
www.edwardjayepstein.com


43 posted on 11/25/2006 8:25:19 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GSlob

Any comments on the above three posts???


44 posted on 11/25/2006 8:34:49 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Forgot to ping you about the above 4 posts. I would be interested to get your take on this--GGG


45 posted on 11/25/2006 9:00:49 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

Anyone familiar with the 300 year old culture of ruthless
Russian genocide knows exactly what Putin is doing.

http://foreignnotes.blogspot.com/2006/11/echoes-of-great-terror.html#comments


46 posted on 11/25/2006 9:10:13 AM PST by spanalot
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To: spanalot
My point is that Litvinenko/Gordievsky could very well still be working for Putin/KGB and/or Rogue Russian elements (especially Gordievsky). Epstein's hypothesis (that Litvinenko was smuggling the polonium 210) is just as good as any I have seen so far. BTW, being a critique of the Putin dictatorship would be a perfect cover for such operations. When you are dealing with the wilderness of mirrors, you can't take anything at face value, no matter how obvious such a conclusion might seem.
47 posted on 11/25/2006 9:35:14 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: spanalot

For instance, read the following from Epstein's site (especially the last part!):

Question:

What are Russia's four main contributions to Iran's nuclear program?

Answer:

Russia, as the prime subcontractor for Iran's nuclear program, is providing:

1) Six nuclear reactors for Iran. Four are at Bushehr and two are at Akhvaz.

2) A uranium-conversion plant at Bushehr that can be used for uranium enrichment.

3) An exemption in the UN resolution on Iran. In its draft resosultion the Russians have exempted “materials, equipment, technology" used at Bushehr 1. This exemption will allow Iran to convert the lightly-enriched fuel in the light-water nuclear reactor into weapon-grade 235. It need only remove fuel rods from Bushehr, then extracting their pellets, and feed this enriched uranium into its centrifuges. The centrifuges could then produce weapon-grade U-235 in less than 2 month. (Iran could keep the operation secret by substituting dummy rods for those it removed from the Bushehr reactor.)

4) The reactor-grade uranium for Bushehr 1 (which goes into operation in October 2007.)


Russia may be also making unofficial contributions. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) laboratory at Seibersdorf, Austria, ascertained that Iranian centrifuges made indigenously in Iran — not imported gear — showed traces of on enriched uranium with a purity level of 36 percent U-235. Russia appears to have been the source of this enriched uranium, since the IAEA lab also found a "likely match" between the atomic signatures of the 36% uranium used in Russian submarines and the traces gathered from Iranian centrifuges. Then there is the polonium 210 used to explode the bomb. The AIEA determined that Iran has obtained polonium 210, an isotope. And the likely source is Russia, which uses it (in combination with beryllium) to ensure the chain reaction leading to a nuclear explosion begins at the right time.

http://www.edwardjayepstein.com/2003question/IransWMD.htm

See what I mean???


48 posted on 11/25/2006 9:44:48 AM PST by GodGunsGuts
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To: GodGunsGuts

meaningless, all three. If they were mishandling Po-210, then how come that out of all 6 [??] "no-goodniks" only one got it hard and fast - where are all the others, in what hospitals? To handle Po-210 and not get hurt in the process takes training, special equipment and concentrated effort. Here one has a professional assassination job, with the means chosen for the difficulty of tracing [how long did it take them to find out?]. The same means, once identified, drastically narrows the culprits circle.


49 posted on 11/25/2006 10:00:34 AM PST by GSlob
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To: A. Pole
You still carry the water for the Soviet Union on this site?

Who poisoned Yushchenko? (just two years ago)

50 posted on 11/25/2006 10:00:54 AM PST by Sawdring
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