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No, the Cops Didnít Murder Sean Bell
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2006-12-04hm.html ^ | Heather Mac Donald

Posted on 12/04/2006 12:20:29 PM PST by ventanax5

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1 posted on 12/04/2006 12:20:31 PM PST by ventanax5
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To: ventanax5

Fine article.

How many officers fired the 50 shots? 5 at 10 each?


2 posted on 12/04/2006 12:28:22 PM PST by sodpoodle (Human destiny - who lost the road map?)
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To: sodpoodle

one fired 31 shots.


3 posted on 12/04/2006 12:33:10 PM PST by diefree
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To: AliVeritas

PING


4 posted on 12/04/2006 12:33:34 PM PST by sono ("Improvise, Adapt, Overcome" - Gunnery Sgt Thomas "Gunny" Highway)
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To: diefree

When you have to fire 31 shots you are looking at quantity instead of quality.


5 posted on 12/04/2006 12:34:32 PM PST by sgtbono2002 (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: sgtbono2002

That officer probably needs to practice gun control.


6 posted on 12/04/2006 12:39:29 PM PST by Past Your Eyes (Do what you love and the ridicule will follow.)
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To: ventanax5

The first cop to shoot was a black guy, I recall reading.


7 posted on 12/04/2006 12:40:36 PM PST by Fierce Allegiance (SAY NO TO RUDY!)
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To: sgtbono2002
A speeding car being used as a weapon is a target which requires a quantitative response.
8 posted on 12/04/2006 12:45:40 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: ventanax5

If I had some drug crazed drunk driving a car at me, I would unload more than just 50 bullets!!!!

Don't tell me any of you would just stand there and ask them to turn the car off....I own the Brooklyn Bridge if you answer yes.....


9 posted on 12/04/2006 12:47:22 PM PST by HarleyLady27 (My ? to libs: "Do they ever shut up on your planet?" "Grow your own DOPE: Plant a LIB!")
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To: ventanax5
Bell and the other men with him all had been arrested for illegal possession of guns in the past; one of Bell’s companions that night, Joseph Guzman, had spent considerable time in prison, including for an armed robbery in which he shot at his victim.

the more i hear of this story, its beginning to sound more justified.
10 posted on 12/04/2006 12:47:52 PM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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Funny how the police would think these guys had any guns or had a record as long as your arm???
11 posted on 12/04/2006 12:47:55 PM PST by micho
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To: ventanax5

Try and run over a cop in any other state, and watch what happens - you WILL be shot for trying to kill that officer - plain and simple. The man behind the wheel of that car was a complete idiot. The others in the car were lucky they were not killed as well.

Sharpton and the other paper weights need to rethink their attitude, or the vigilante's of Newark may return.


12 posted on 12/04/2006 12:49:21 PM PST by Sword_Svalbardt (Sword Svalbardt)
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To: sgtbono2002

If there were 4 or 5 guys in the car that is only 6 shots per person.


13 posted on 12/04/2006 12:50:18 PM PST by merry10
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To: Sword_Svalbardt
Since this story first hit the airwaves, I've speculated that the guys in the car had no idea the guys outside the car were police officers.

Anyone who has been to this neighborhood in New York City will understand why someone in a car might behave exactly as these guys did when surrounded by a group of armed men.

14 posted on 12/04/2006 12:53:20 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: merry10

there were three guys in the car


15 posted on 12/04/2006 12:53:25 PM PST by diefree
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To: Alberta's Child

I don't believe they were surrounded


16 posted on 12/04/2006 12:54:28 PM PST by diefree
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To: ventanax5

I can hardly wait for Bruce Springsteen to write a song about this. Maybe it'll be a duet with Al Sharpton.


17 posted on 12/04/2006 12:58:31 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Cap'n Crunch

some rapper already wrote one, it's called something like "50 shots"


18 posted on 12/04/2006 12:59:24 PM PST by diefree
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To: Alberta's Child

Right, and if so, why did he try and run them over?

Next!

The guy knew, and he did not want to get nailed, but he was unaware of how much support this one officer had - did he or did he not find out the hard way?

SS


19 posted on 12/04/2006 12:59:55 PM PST by Sword_Svalbardt (Sword Svalbardt)
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To: diefree

I guess that's a matter of semantics. When it's 4 AM and you've got one guy an foot and several others in two vehicles (I believe this was the arrangement at the scene), there are plenty of reasons for any rational adult to wonder what the heck is going on.


20 posted on 12/04/2006 1:00:05 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: diefree

hahaha.. nothings faster than the American Capitalist.

Gotta love it.


21 posted on 12/04/2006 1:02:25 PM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: Sword_Svalbardt

It sure wouldn't be the first time the NYPD shot an unarmed man in an undercover operation gone awry. See "Diallo, Amadou" and "Dorismond, Patrick" for examples of this.


22 posted on 12/04/2006 1:02:34 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: Sword_Svalbardt

The more I hear about crime in the big cities the more I wonder what has happened to the real men in our society.

We do not tolerate this type of crap anywhere near our home in the sticks.I firmly believe if groups of men would police those city neighborhoods and take out the trash it would be cleaned up real quick.


23 posted on 12/04/2006 1:04:53 PM PST by liberty or death
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To: wideawake

Not necessarily. One RPG would have done the job.


24 posted on 12/04/2006 1:05:13 PM PST by sgtbono2002 (The fourth estate is a fifth column.)
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To: Alberta's Child

The weapon was a car. Hello!!!!!

What article did you read? People get shot at all the time, because like the idiots they are, they choose to try and use their vehicle as a weapon.

No weapon found? Hell, the weapon had his fingerprints all over the steering wheel.

SS


25 posted on 12/04/2006 1:05:27 PM PST by Sword_Svalbardt (Sword Svalbardt)
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To: liberty or death; Victoria Delsoul
Remember -- you're talking about a city that has basically functioned as a police state for decades. A 911 system wasn't enough in New York City, so they instituted a 311 system to deal with calls from city residents trying to find their way through the city government's bureaucratic maze for "non-emergency" situations.

At any rate, there is no reason to expect anything remotely resembling "real men" in a city that was one of the first to ban smoking in private establishments and is soon going to impose dietary restrictions on restaurants, too.

26 posted on 12/04/2006 1:08:57 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: Alberta's Child
(1) Bell was armed.

(2) If Diallo had bothered to learn a few rudimentary phrases of English during his illegal stay in the US he would be in one piece today.

(3) If Dorismond had not committed assault against an undercover police officer, he would be in one piece today.

Which falsified Sharpton media event are you going to trundle out next? Eleanor Bumpurs?

27 posted on 12/04/2006 1:09:04 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: liberty or death

We do not tolerate this type of crap anywhere near our home in the sticks.I firmly believe if groups of men would police those city neighborhoods and take out the trash it would be cleaned up real quick...





Well, you do have meth labs out in the sticks along with all varieties of growers.


28 posted on 12/04/2006 1:12:06 PM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Alberta's Child
Remember -- you're talking about a city that has basically functioned as a police state for decades.

Plenty of New York residents have escaped actual police states and are delighted to live in NYC precisely because it is the opposite of what they have endured.

Describing NYC as a police state is ridiculous.

Life in NYC is overregulated in a number of respects, but the rule of law prevails.

29 posted on 12/04/2006 1:12:22 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Alberta's Child

In the Diallo case it wasn't an "undercover" operation. It was the SCU street crime unit looking for a man who had committed 51 rapes in the area.

The SCU no longer exists and NYC is experiencing a rise in crime because of it.


30 posted on 12/04/2006 1:12:37 PM PST by diefree
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To: sodpoodle
A group of undercover officers working in a gun- and drug-plagued strip joint in Queens had good reason to believe that a party leaving the club was armed and about to shoot an adversary.

They had been undercover for months trying to bust this club with no results. This was the last night of their operation and at 4am, they finally got the bad element at the club who were just there for a bachelor party?

As far as the supposed gun, one of the cops claims one of the eight men at the club said something like "Yo, get my gun" which indicated he wasn't carrying the weapon. And five of the eight men were not in this car. Furthermore, these men were shot a block away from the club, clearly having no intention of engaging in illegal activity at the club or having committed any crime while at the club. Beyond that, the undercovers had not alerted the other police in the neighborhood that they were about to make a bust or had probable cause for an arrest.
31 posted on 12/04/2006 1:15:18 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush

There's more to the story than that, there was something about a prostitute and the undercover was going to arrest her outside. Also, there had been one man in the club with a gun. I don't believe he was involved in the subsequent event.


32 posted on 12/04/2006 1:20:30 PM PST by diefree
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To: George W. Bush
They had been undercover for months trying to bust this club with no results. This was the last night of their operation

What a load of garbage.

Are you Charles Barron's press agent?

33 posted on 12/04/2006 1:20:35 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
I'd consider the Diallo case a special circumstance for the reason you mentioned (the fact that he was an illegal alien makes his demise pretty much inconsequential for the most part). The other two cases involved undercover police officers dealing with "civilians" who may or may not have known that they were undercover police officers.

The Dorismond case was particularly instructive in the way it highlighted the potential idiocy of an undercover operation . . .

There is no way to justify a police shooting of a person who assaulted an undercover officer who tried to sell drugs to him. Remember -- the follow-up investigation of that incident revealed that Dorismond probably had no idea the guy was an undercover cop.

34 posted on 12/04/2006 1:20:42 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: ventanax5

The reaction by the Cops is beginning to make a lot of sense IMHO.

A vehicle has been used as a lethal weapon, more than once.


35 posted on 12/04/2006 1:21:00 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell ( Is not death also victory in a war against an abomination so vile you could never live with it?)
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To: wideawake
New York City has about 40,000 police officers today, which means the city's police force -- in a city that covers only 321 square miles -- is almost one-third the size of the entire U.S. military contingent in Iraq today.

In addition, the fact that constitutional rights are abrogated in New York City as a matter of course (see Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution) would seem to support my contention that the place is a police state.

36 posted on 12/04/2006 1:24:29 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: ventanax5
When one of the undercovers identified himself as an officer, the car holding the party twice tried to run him down.

Every time that happens to me, I do the same thing.

Just sayin'...

37 posted on 12/04/2006 1:25:44 PM PST by Publius6961 (MSM: Israelis are killed by rockets; Lebanese are killed by Israelis.)
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To: diefree

Most Americans would suggest that an armed citizenry would be a far more effective -- and constitutionally legitimate -- way of dealing with 51 rapes than a "Street Crimes Unit."


38 posted on 12/04/2006 1:25:59 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: wideawake

Don't confuse the anti-police folks on this thread.....with the facts!


39 posted on 12/04/2006 1:27:26 PM PST by OldFriend (FALLEN HERO JEFFREY TOCZYLOWSKI, REST IN PEACE)
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To: Alberta's Child

Cops are trained to identify themselves. It causes most honest citizens to cooperate, while causing most dishonest citizens to react in an absolutely opposite manner.


40 posted on 12/04/2006 1:28:51 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell ( Is not death also victory in a war against an abomination so vile you could never live with it?)
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To: Alberta's Child

Thousands of undercover arrests and you find three to support your bias?


41 posted on 12/04/2006 1:29:10 PM PST by OldFriend (FALLEN HERO JEFFREY TOCZYLOWSKI, REST IN PEACE)
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To: George W. Bush
As far as the supposed gun, one of the cops claims one of the eight men at the club said something like "Yo, get my gun" which indicated he wasn't carrying the weapon.

The question was whether or not he went to the car in question in order to retrieve a firearm.

Which is why the officer attempted to stop the car.

Furthermore, these men were shot a block away from the club, clearly having no intention of engaging in illegal activity at the club or having committed any crime while at the club.

They were shot a few feet from the club. And it doesn't matter whether they were inside the club or not. Do the police have no authority outside of the club? Is the club magical?

Beyond that, the undercovers had not alerted the other police in the neighborhood that they were about to make a bust or had probable cause for an arrest.

They have no responsibility to alert any other officers if they are making an arrest.

They were operating as police officers in their own jurisdiction.

And they weren't about to make a bust. They were about to stop a car and question its passengers.

42 posted on 12/04/2006 1:31:01 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Alberta's Child

I'm very pro-gun but NYC has limited the right of its citizens to be armed since early in the 20th Century. The people of NY apparently like it that way since they never do anything about it.

40,000 cops for over 8 million people isn't a lot.


43 posted on 12/04/2006 1:33:10 PM PST by diefree
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To: ventanax5
I could be totally wrong about this, but the national attention to this type of story is eerily familiar. Remember when Hillary ran against Guliani? All of a sudden, the NYC police department was under tremendous scrutiny. Every questionable police action made headlines and the element of scale drew national attention. Once Guliani dropped out of the Senate race, the "bad cop" news stopped. Did the police department become bad, then good during the course of the campaign? Or, did the NYT (etc.) get the suggestion to headline any and all stories that could potentially rub the shine off the NYC police, thereby taking away a feather in Guliani's cap.

Hillary's political machine is capable and willing to destroy people and organizations if it helps her. There are lots of examples over the past 12 years. Unfortunately, Guliani is a lightning rod for the NYC police department (or vice versa).

I haven't a clue as to the allegations at hand, but I can see that Hillary's campaign is in full swing. My $0.02

k.
44 posted on 12/04/2006 1:38:00 PM PST by kdot
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To: diefree
I think you're thinking of 50 Cent or Fitty S$Cent or some sh*t like that. :O)

Or maybe it's Public Enemy. Who can keep up with gangsta rap anymore?
45 posted on 12/04/2006 1:39:09 PM PST by jdm
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To: kdot

The rumors are that Mayor Bloomberg will run for President and Police Commissioner Kelly will run for Mayor.


46 posted on 12/04/2006 1:40:18 PM PST by diefree
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To: Alberta's Child
There is no way to justify a police shooting of a person who assaulted an undercover officer who tried to sell drugs to him.

Anj undercover officer tried to purchase drugs from Dorismond, mistakenly believing that Dorismond was the bouncer who was selling drugs at that club.

Dorismond's response was to shove him against a wall.

A second undercover, trying to defuse the situation, told Dorismond to lighten up and forget about it, and Dorismond then punched the second officer in the mouth.

Dorismond's fellow bouncer then began beating the first officer and Dorismond joined in.

The second officer, recovering from the blow, unsheathed his weapon, identified himself and told Dorismond and friend to put their hands up.

Dorismond tried to grab the weapon and it discharged in the struggle, killing Dorismond.

The grand jury was satisfied with this testimony and declined to indict the officer.

If Dorismond had not assaulted two people, he'd be alive.

47 posted on 12/04/2006 1:40:27 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: OldFriend
No bias here at all.

Ten bucks says the City of New York is going to be paying out a hefty cash settlement for this one.

48 posted on 12/04/2006 1:42:18 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: jdm

it's some guy named Papoose


49 posted on 12/04/2006 1:43:22 PM PST by diefree
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To: Alberta's Child
New York City has about 40,000 police officers today, which means the city's police force -- in a city that covers only 321 square miles -- is almost one-third the size of the entire U.S. military contingent in Iraq today.

(1) Iraq is not a police state.

(2) US military personnel are not the only people involved in policing Iraq. There are more than 250,000 local police and Iraq Security Forces personnel.

(3) Much of Iraq is rural.

(4) NYC has a population one-third the size of Iraq.

Silly comparison.

In addition, the fact that constitutional rights are abrogated in New York City as a matter of course (see Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution) would seem to support my contention that the place is a police state.

The right to own a pistol is largely abrogated in NYC. The right to own a rifle is not.

And stupid gun laws do not define a police state.

A police state involves the persecution, disenfranchisement, disability and imprisonment of people due to their ethnicity or their political or religious beliefs. It involves state control of the media. It involves laws against the free exercise of speech. It involves the lack of a right to to trial for offenses. It involves the ability of the police to detain citizens withoput charging them with crimes.

It's pathetic that you know so little about history that I have to explain the definition of a simple term to you in such detail.

50 posted on 12/04/2006 1:48:21 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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