Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

No, the Cops Didnít Murder Sean Bell
http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon2006-12-04hm.html ^ | Heather Mac Donald

Posted on 12/04/2006 12:20:29 PM PST by ventanax5

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-96 last
To: wideawake
The City of New York paid the Dorismond family $2.25 million to settle a civil lawsuit over that case, too.

There is something inherently wrong when you have police officers "commit a crime" as part of their undercover operation, then turn around and deal with a unarmed civilian as a criminal when he reacts in this kind of manner (i.e., arrest the people involved when they react as any normal person might react when confronted with criminal activity).

51 posted on 12/04/2006 1:50:33 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
They had been undercover for months trying to bust this club with no results. This was the last night of their operation

What a load of garbage.

I don't suppose you'll believe Fox News, NYT, NYSun, NYObserver either?
The undercovers, who usually worked in Manhattan, were on the last night of their two-month Queens detail to try to nail the Kalua and other clubs on such violations as drugs and underage prostitution.
For sixty nights, nada. Then suddenly on the very last night...
52 posted on 12/04/2006 1:53:25 PM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
I'll tell you what . . .

Any jurisdiction that goes to great lengths to inform its citizenry to "watch for terrorism" through a color-coded warning system -- while at the same time prohibiting law-abiding citizens from using the most effective means they would have to deal with terrorism on a personal level -- is either a police state or a dysfunctional heap of sh!t.

You take your pick between those two, and I'll go with you on this one, OK?

53 posted on 12/04/2006 1:54:06 PM PST by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: wideawake

Having already demolished your previous post, this one isn't worthwhile.


54 posted on 12/04/2006 1:56:16 PM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: absolootezer0

And why were they hanging out with prostitutes right before a church wedding? I feel bad for the fiancee and her kids but why didn't she tell him to stay home before the wedding? Why did these guys have to go to such a horrible place "to have fun"?????


55 posted on 12/04/2006 2:15:10 PM PST by juliej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: George W. Bush
The last night of one specific group of officers' detail is not the end of an operation.

Those familiar with undercover work know that officers are switched from precinct to precinct and rotated in and out from operations in order to (1) make sure that undercovers do not become too close, psychologically, to their contacts and (2) make sure that contacts do not begin suspecting the officers.

Just because their detail was ending at the club does not mean they obtained no results from their investigation, nor does it mean their undercover work was at an end, nor does it mean the investigation was at an end.

The implication is that these officers were desperate to bust anyone at Kalua Club for any reason at all because their jobs or prestige or something depended on it and that the events of that night were the result of an ego trip.

That's garbage.

90% of undercover operations are unsuccessful. These officers would have been happy to walk away from an assignment in one piece whether they got a bust or not. Arresting one club patron for having an illegal handgun in a car outside the club would not have been a more glorious end to the detail than quietly walking away.

56 posted on 12/04/2006 2:15:28 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
No bias?

Do you ever go back and actually read your posts???????????????????????

57 posted on 12/04/2006 2:19:37 PM PST by OldFriend (FALLEN HERO JEFFREY TOCZYLOWSKI, REST IN PEACE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: diefree

Ok. I still dont' think that's a lot if his duty is to protect himself, his fellow officers and the city of New York. Why didn't they stop?


58 posted on 12/04/2006 2:22:50 PM PST by merry10
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child

Yep!


59 posted on 12/04/2006 2:23:38 PM PST by liberty or death
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
while at the same time prohibiting law-abiding citizens from using the most effective means they would have to deal with terrorism on a personal level

So your position is that if enough New Yorkers had handguns, they would be able to tell if a box truck in the next lane is filled with explosives? Or they could have shot down the planes with Glocks before they hit the towers?

Please.

If a terrorist plot is foiled by an alert citizen it will not be because he shot a shifty-looking Arab, but because he notices a technically legal but very suspicious piece of activity and reports it to law enforcement officers who are on the ball and are able to put two and two together with other information that has flowed into the system.

If any citizen had shot and killed any of the 9/11 terrorists before they boarded those planes purely ebcause of their very suspicious but illegal behavior, that citizen would be in prison today.

That's not how it works.

Firearm ownership is a far better preventer of street crime than it is of terrorism.

60 posted on 12/04/2006 2:24:07 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: durasell

Had one near us (3.5miles) and we ran them off. Most of them are on reservations where their relatives (BIA cops) protect them. Come off the reservation near my home and I will make your life miserable.


61 posted on 12/04/2006 2:25:52 PM PST by liberty or death
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child

The cops were undercover from what I hear so the victim would not have known. We had something similar in Atlanta. Police broke down this door (no knock warrant) and shot an 88 year old woman. She had a gun and shot several police also. The police said an informant told them drugs were being dealt out of this house. The informant says he never told the police this.

I think the police are covering up the fact they hit the wrong house. This poor woman didn't know they were police. Armed men break in-it's the middle of the night. She defends herself. It's a cold cruel world out there.


62 posted on 12/04/2006 2:27:19 PM PST by nyconse
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: George W. Bush
Having already demolished your previous post

If you mean displaying your utter ignorance of the difference between an undercover detail and an undercover operation is "demolishing" my post you are, of course, entitled to your own bizarre opinion.

But don't pretend that your inability to address my second post is somehow excused by your ignorance of undercover procedure.

63 posted on 12/04/2006 2:36:28 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
The last night of one specific group of officers' detail is not the end of an operation.

But it's the end for that group. And modern police keep track of the results of investigations.

Career-minded police always have an incentive to arrest. Just as DAs have a political incentive to convict.
64 posted on 12/04/2006 2:39:06 PM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: merry10

I was just pointing out how many men were shot out. I made no inference to whether or not I thought the shots were too little or too many.

I don't know why they didn't stop. I'll take a chance and assume that they were trying to escape the police.


65 posted on 12/04/2006 2:41:48 PM PST by diefree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: George W. Bush
If the undercover operation is intended to bust and close down a popular nightspot because of drugs and prostitution, an arrest of a patron for having a illegal firearm in a vehicle parked outside the club earns the arresting officer no career points.

And, had he blown cover on the whole operation for an arrest that would not have gotten the needed outcome and even that arrest turned up no gun or any crime, his career would definitely suffer.

Those guys reacted because they believed Bell and crew were a danger to the public.

They were not about to blow the cover on an ongoing operation for a minor arrest that is normally punishable by maybe six months in stir for a first offense.

66 posted on 12/04/2006 2:43:54 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: diefree

shot at not shot out


67 posted on 12/04/2006 2:44:30 PM PST by diefree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
I've speculated that the guys in the car had no idea the guys outside the car were police officers. Anyone who has been to this neighborhood in New York City will understand why someone in a car might behave exactly as these guys did when surrounded by a group of armed men.

They were originally accosted by a single man, holding no weapon, who identified himself as a police officer.

They then tried to run him over.

After they tried to run him over they were surrounded by armed police officers and they still thought that if they barreled their way through the officers they could get away.

Alcohol plus being a dumb thug means bad decisions.

68 posted on 12/04/2006 2:49:19 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
Everything you've said is on the money. Keep it up--you're doing a great job.

The cop-haters know not what they're talking about.

69 posted on 12/04/2006 2:51:18 PM PST by Pharmboy ([She turned me into a] Newt! in '08)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
The City of New York paid the Dorismond family $2.25 million to settle a civil lawsuit over that case, too.

That's a command decision by corporation counsel.

I wouldn't want to go up against a crying mother in court with a jury specially selected by plaintiff's counsel to be none-too-bright rooters for the underdog.

There is something inherently wrong when you have police officers "commit a crime" as part of their undercover operation, then turn around and deal with a unarmed civilian as a criminal when he reacts in this kind of manner (i.e., arrest the people involved when they react as any normal person might react when confronted with criminal activity).

If someone asked me if I could sell him some drugs I would laugh at him rather than commit felonious assault.

Normal people don't attack people just for asking them a stupid question.

There are limits to police doing this, i.e. entrapment statutes.

70 posted on 12/04/2006 2:57:57 PM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: wideawake

Best law suit ever in NYC was Samuel L. Jackson after he was dragged by a subway car.


71 posted on 12/04/2006 3:01:25 PM PST by durasell (!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: wideawake
If the undercover operation is intended to bust and close down a popular nightspot because of drugs and prostitution, an arrest of a patron for having a illegal firearm in a vehicle parked outside the club earns the arresting officer no career points.

Exactly my point. None of it makes sense, given their mission.

And, had he blown cover on the whole operation for an arrest that would not have gotten the needed outcome and even that arrest turned up no gun or any crime, his career would definitely suffer.

The likely outcome of this case.

Those guys reacted because they believed Bell and crew were a danger to the public.

No probable cause. And no gun in the car. And reports of a fourth man are that, of five eyewitnesses so far, two says there wasn't a fourth man in the car, three others don't seem sure. And none of them are saying the police identified themselves. It's going to be a helluva mess to sort all these conflicting reports out.

But if there had been just one gun found, it would be a lot different. Too bad for them there is no gun.

They were not about to blow the cover on an ongoing operation for a minor arrest that is normally punishable by maybe six months in stir for a first offense.

LOL. But isn't that exactly what they did? Well, except their particular detail was ending that night and no one has said whether that club was to become a target in another team's undercover work.
72 posted on 12/04/2006 3:18:47 PM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child
Sure, any rational adult would wonder what the heck is going on. However, I would argue that only thugs would behave the way Bell and Guzman did by uttering, "Let’s fuck him up!" and "Yo, get my gun!", and then follow that up with trying to run the person over. If you're a law-abiding citizen, you would try not to make more trouble, and certainly wouldn't try to run somebody over with the car you're driving.
73 posted on 12/04/2006 3:29:31 PM PST by Ohioan from Florida (The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.- Edmund Burke)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: liberty or death

I do not mean to sound condescending, but I don't think you really understand what goes on in large cities or other populated areas.

First of all, groups of men and women do police these bad neighborhoods. They are the police, and their job is not as easy as you seem to think. NYC is actually a rather safe city compared to most cities in this country. The areas or major cities that are the most dangerous are controlled by organized criminal drug gangs, who are totally ruthless. You are not going to have ordinary citizens going in there and cleaning the places up by kicking ass like a Hollywood movie. People who would try to do that would be killed. The only real way to clean these places up is to use good police work like they usually do in the safest big cities, and to get more business and infrastructure in these neighborhoods. Major cities have always been dangerous, and they will probably never be totally safe because violent crime will always go up when you put large numbers of people in realtively small areas.

Your point about the real mean is actually very true because many of the children in these areas have no fathers to raise them, so they grow up to be criminals because criminals recruit them and it is the easiest way for them to support themselves. I do not mean this statement to sound like an excuse for their behavior, but it is a big part of the problem.


74 posted on 12/04/2006 3:46:54 PM PST by RoyStevens
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Past Your Eyes

They showed the other night just how fast 50 rounds can be fired off in an emergency situation, and brother- it was super quick- it wasn't like some drawn out laborious process- it was a blink of the eye with 3 officers- this has been blown way out of proportion by the 'victimized agenda crowd' http://sacredscoop.com


75 posted on 12/04/2006 5:22:10 PM PST by CottShop
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: wideawake

Whatever you went through to get your NJ FPIC, imagine six more months of it to get a similar thing in NYC. And keep in mind that NYC created an 'assault rifle' registry, so that when they enacted a ban, Giuliani could send the NYPD on house to houses to make sure the residents got rid of their evil black rifles. New York City has smoking police. New York City is about to get trans fat police. New York City has laws prohibiting dancing in bars that do not have cabaret licenses. New York City has taxi police. New York City has code enforcement police, and comsumer affairs police, also they have a special police squad to catch you selling cigarettes from North Carolina or Indian Reservations. New York City has thought police who add special charges when white people attack minorities, but not the other way around. They do not yet have a library police, but if that pinhead Bloomberg wants one, it will happen. I am so glad I got out of that area.


76 posted on 12/04/2006 8:29:53 PM PST by sig226 (See my profile for the democrat culture of corruption list.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: diefree

Why'd you shoot him 31 times?

Ran outta ammo. < /rimshot>


77 posted on 12/04/2006 8:32:33 PM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (The hallmark of a crackpot conspiracy theory is that it expands to include countervailing evidence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: sig226

Oh, but they do have library police -

Investigator The New York Public Library



Job Title: Investigator
Employer: The New York Public Library

Job Code: NYT-INV
Location: New York, NY 10016
Date: 11-07-2006
Job Type: Full Time

Job Description
Description: The New York Public Library seeks an Investigator to handle field security investigations. Investigates matters involving burglary, theft, misuse of Library property and disorderly conduct. Conducts confidential investigations. Prepares records and reports of activities and investigations.


Requirements:
Requires a H.S. graduate, supplemented by course in Security Management, Police Science or Criminology with substantial experience in investigative police work. Valid, clean driver’s license and good oral, written and interpersonal communication skills. Ability to be deputized by the New York City Police Department. Ability to exercise good judgment and alertness in cases of emergency and deal quickly, tactfully and effectively with Library staff and public. Must be able to respond to emergencies after hours.


To apply please send resume and cover letter to bpresumes@nypl.org. Please include job code NYT-INV.

Contact:



Fax: 2125927327


78 posted on 12/04/2006 8:52:59 PM PST by diefree
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: RoyStevens
It is a Cops job to "clean up the mess" much like an EMT. they're not involved until the problem is out of control or someone,something is damaged.

I've known many cops by the way and none will tell a different story. Very frustrating for them all.

Don't look at it like a Hollywood movie. Just take out the trash. Vigilantes have always been a creation of a complacent society. The society we have now is very much in this category. I will remove anything that is a threat to my wife and children. If its the area I live and its out of control then we need to leave.
79 posted on 12/05/2006 4:19:43 AM PST by liberty or death
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: sig226

Again, overregulation does make a police state.


80 posted on 12/05/2006 4:49:01 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: sig226
Eventually.

However, NYC does not reach taht level yet.

i agree that Bl;oomberg is doing his level best, but he is also the guy criticizing this officers in public without a trial.

81 posted on 12/05/2006 4:50:21 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 76 | View Replies]

To: George W. Bush
For sixty nights, nada. Then suddenly on the very last night...

-------------------------------------------------

You don't know what you are talking about or, obviously, how operations like this work.

82 posted on 12/05/2006 4:59:18 AM PST by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: jdm
Who can keep up with gangsta rap anymore?

I know, it's just so...innovative, LOL!

83 posted on 12/05/2006 5:12:45 AM PST by Andonius_99 (They [liberals] aren't humans, but rather a species of hairless retarded ape.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: George W. Bush
"They had been undercover for months trying to bust this club with no results. This was the last night of their operation and at 4am, they finally got the bad element at the club who were just there for a bachelor party?"

You have no idea how an operation like this works. The UC never makes an arrest, his function is to observe and witness activity about which he will later testify.

///////////////////////////

"As far as the supposed gun, one of the cops claims one of the eight men at the club said something like "Yo, get my gun" which indicated he wasn't carrying the weapon. And five of the eight men were not in this car. Furthermore, these men were shot a block away from the club, clearly having no intention of engaging in illegal activity at the club or having committed any crime while at the club. Beyond that, the undercovers had not alerted the other police in the neighborhood that they were about to make a bust or had probable cause for an arrest.?"

This is what was obvious to me...The UC witnessed an argument between two groups of men inside and outside a known location. He saw and heard one say 'Get my gun' then saw that man and others walk toward a car while the other men were standing outside the location. The UC's educated reaction was 'drive-by' about to happen. He stopped it.

84 posted on 12/05/2006 5:14:18 AM PST by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: CottShop
They showed the other night just how fast 50 rounds can be fired off in an emergency situation...

One of the officers fired 31 times. A good bet is he had two police fifteen-round clips and had one in the chamber to start with.

Firing 31 times takes at least ten seconds plus another 3 for a reload. Probably more like 20 seconds, given that most police aren't very regularly drilled in shooting.

Something is very wrong with this story. At what point are the police expected to stop shooting when no one ever shot at them and there was no gun and no probable cause?
85 posted on 12/05/2006 6:49:12 AM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: wtc911
You have no idea how an operation like this works. The UC never makes an arrest, his function is to observe and witness activity about which he will later testify.

Read the accounts again. It was the UC who instigated this. That's why I keep saying there's something wrong with the accounts.

This is what was obvious to me...The UC witnessed an argument between two groups of men inside and outside a known location. He saw and heard one say 'Get my gun' then saw that man and others walk toward a car while the other men were standing outside the location. The UC's educated reaction was 'drive-by' about to happen. He stopped it.

But the accounts indicate that this happened earlier and the dispute had broken up already. The other five men were no longer present by what we've seen so far. So what basis is there to believe a drive-by was about to happen? Again, no probable cause.
86 posted on 12/05/2006 6:53:44 AM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: George W. Bush

Perhaps local reporting is more complete than what you are seeing. The first reports all included the remarks about the gun, the potential target indicating he had a gun and the presence of the potential target outside the club.


87 posted on 12/05/2006 7:24:44 AM PST by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: wtc911

Seems like the accounts of it change on a daily basis.


88 posted on 12/05/2006 7:48:28 AM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 87 | View Replies]

To: sodpoodle

Whats the difference? If a Policeman tells you to do something you do it period! If you dont then you suffer the consequences period. End of story.


89 posted on 12/05/2006 7:52:28 AM PST by straps (The problems with us republicans is, " We shoot our own wounded")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Alberta's Child

You forget 1 simple fact trying to justify these scum. The 1st Officer showed them his badge and they still tried to kill him. He hollered 10-13 officer involved in possible shooting . Then they tried to get him a second time and all hell broke loose. Stop trying to justify Bell he is scum period.


90 posted on 12/05/2006 7:55:48 AM PST by straps (The problems with us republicans is, " We shoot our own wounded")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: ventanax5

BTTT


91 posted on 12/05/2006 9:33:53 AM PST by aculeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ventanax5

bttt


92 posted on 12/05/2006 9:34:10 AM PST by aculeus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

BTTT


93 posted on 12/05/2006 10:03:21 AM PST by BufordP ("Every morning I start my day with juice, toast, and a big bowl of Baby Crunch!" -- Michael J. Fox)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: straps
You forget 1 simple fact trying to justify these scum. The 1st Officer showed them his badge and they still tried to kill him. He hollered 10-13 officer involved in possible shooting . Then they tried to get him a second time and all hell broke loose. Stop trying to justify Bell he is scum period.

Yeah, but there are so many conflicting reports. One says Bell tried to run the cop down. A few more say that he 'brushed' past the officer. Another says the officer put one leg up on the hood of the car and tried to show his badge. Another one says he jumped on the hood of the car and his badge was dangling from his neck.

There are five eyewitnesses so far and apparently they don't agree on what happened either.

There hasn't been a trustworthy account written yet, whichever side you're on.
94 posted on 12/05/2006 10:34:27 AM PST by George W. Bush
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: straps
He hollered 10-13 officer involved in possible shooting.

----------------------------------

10-13 is Assist Police Officer. It does not necessarily mean a shooting, it covers every circumstance wherein the PO needs help because he is in danger. 10-10 covers 'shots fired', at least it did thirty years ago.

95 posted on 12/05/2006 10:37:30 AM PST by wtc911 (You can't get there from here)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: straps

Very true.

That is why I encourage friends and relatives to maintain their law abiding habits accordingly.

No criminals in sodpoodle's familial acreage.




96 posted on 12/05/2006 2:04:45 PM PST by sodpoodle (Human destiny - who lost the road map?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-96 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson