Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Islam thrives as Russia's population falls
The Toronto Star ^ | December 3, 2006 | MICHAEL MAINVILLE

Posted on 12/06/2006 6:06:27 AM PST by MadIvan

CROWDED MOSQUES | Worried local authorities won't allow Muslims to build more places of worship

Dec. 3, 2006. 01:00 AM

MICHAEL MAINVILLE

SPECIAL TO THE STAR, MOSCOW

Moscow-Asteady stream of devout Muslims pours into the Sobornaya Mosque on a cold, grey Friday afternoon. The Arabic call to prayer echoes incongruously among Soviet-era apartment buildings and monolithic relics of Moscow's 1980 Olympics.

As usual, the mosque's blue walls cannot contain the hundreds of people looking to pray.

"I'm sorry, it's full," a bearded man in a white skullcap repeats again and again to worshippers showing up at the doors.

Soon, the courtyard outside the mosque is crammed with men removing their hats and shoes to pray. Some lay down elaborate prayer mats of finely woven silk; others settle for tattered newspapers. When the men kneel in the direction of Mecca, their foreheads press against hard concrete.

Attending the prayers with his 8-year-old son, Zabir Valeev can hardly hide his frustration at having to pray under these conditions. The two come to the Sobornaya Mosque nearly every Friday and are often forced to pray outside.

"We shouldn't have to stand out here in the cold," says Valeev, 32. "What does it show to my son that there is no place in Moscow for us to pray?"

The Sobornaya Mosque is one of only four mosques in Moscow serving a Muslim population of 2.5 million — the largest of any European city. Crammed amid the grey monoliths of Moscow's 1980 Olympics complex, it was the only Islamic house of worship allowed to function during the Soviet period, usually empty due to religious repression.

Today, like Moscow's other mosques, it overflows with worshippers on Fridays and holy days. Muslim leaders have been trying to get permission from the city to expand the mosque, and to build many more, but their attempts have failed.

"In the Soviet period, people were forbidden from practising their religions. Now, they are embracing their faith again," says Ildar Alyautdinov, an imam at the Sobornaya Mosque. "But to have only four mosques in Moscow, obviously that's not enough .... We deserve more respect."

Russia is in the midst of startling transformation. Islamic faith is thriving across the country. If current trends continue, experts say, more than half of Russia's population will be Muslim by mid-century.

Few expect it will be an easy transition. Tensions are already high between the country's ethnic Russian population and the diverse group of nationalities that make up the Muslim community. Inter-ethnic violence is on the rise and extreme nationalist groups are gaining influence.

A backlash is already underway. Attacks on mosques are not uncommon and in September an imam in the southern city of Kislovodsk was shot dead outside his home. During days of rioting in August, angry mobs chased Chechens and other migrants from the Caucasus region out of the northwestern town of Kondopoga.

Spurring on the mob was Alexander Belov, charismatic head of the Movement Against Illegal Immigration, an increasingly powerful lobby group that has staged dozens of rallies in recent months. In an interview at a Czech restaurant in central Moscow, Belov railed against what he called the growing "Islamification" of Russia.

"Russia is historically a Slavic, Orthodox Christian land and we need to make sure it stays that way," he said, adding that Orthodox Christianity should be enshrined as Russia's official religion and efforts made to convert Muslims. Islam is currently recognized as one of Russia's official religions, along with Orthodox Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism.

Like many nationalists, Belov makes no distinction between Muslim immigrants and Russian citizens of Islamic faith. He says Muslims, no matter what their citizenship, should be restricted from living in "traditional Russian lands."

Muslim leaders say the Russian media is fuelling antagonism. Many Russians associate Islam with religious extremists from Chechnya who have carried out dozens of bombings and other attacks against civilians. On Russian television, Muslims are most often portrayed as either criminals or religious radicals waging a holy war against Christians. One of Russia's bestselling novels last year, The Mosque of Notre Dame de Paris, depicts a mid-21st century Europe where Islam is the state religion and Christians are forced to live in ghettos.

"I worry all the time about my children," says Timur, a 44-year-old Moscow businessman, after prayers at the Sobornaya Mosque. "I worry that they'll be attacked on the streets or in the subway. My wife is afraid every time they leave the house."

After Friday prayers at the mosque, many worshippers linger, chatting in small groups or browsing amid stalls selling prayer mats, skullcaps and tasbih, the traditional Muslim prayer beads. The languages spoken reflect the incredible diversity of Russia's Muslim population. The Turkic sounds of Tatar and Azeri mix with the guttural tones of Chechen and the Persian rhythm of Tajik.

Some here are newly arrived immigrants from the former Soviet states of Central Asia; others are from Muslim-majority regions that remained part of Russia after the Soviet collapse.

Russia's Muslim communities boast far higher birth rates than those of the country's Christian Orthodox, ethnic Slavs. Russia's overall population is dropping at a rate of 700,000 people a year, largely due to the short life spans and low birth rates of ethnic Russians.

According to the CIA World Factbook estimate, Russia's overall fertility rate is 1.28 children per woman, far below what is needed to maintain the country's population of about 143 million.

Muslim Russians, meanwhile, are bucking the trend, with some communities averaging as many as 10 children per woman. The Central Asian states that traditionally send large numbers of immigrant workers to Russia also have much higher birth rates.

Since 1989, Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 per cent to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims could make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and they could account for one-fifth of the country's population by 2020.

If trends continue for the next 30 years, people of Muslim descent will outnumber ethnic Russians, says Paul Goble, an expert on Islam in Russia and research associate at the University of Tartu in Estonia.

"Russia is going through a religious transformation that will be of even greater consequence for the international community than the collapse of the Soviet Union."

The country's Muslim leaders look on the population spurt, and media coverage, with apprehension.

"The image of Muslims presented in the media is very distorted," says Rusham Abbyasov, a spokesman for the Council of Muftis. "When people hear the phrase Allahu akbar ("God is great" in Arabic) they immediately think of people shooting at them or blowing themselves up."

Sensing the nationalist mood, Russian authorities have begun to crack down.

Four Russian regions recently introduced mandatory classes in Orthodox Christianity in all schools. On Nov. 15, the Russian cabinet announced a new law that will ban foreigners from working in retails stalls and markets next year. The law doesn't specifically target Muslims, but the vast majority of people working in Russia's markets are either Muslim immigrants or from traditionally Muslim parts of Russia.

Goble says the growing anti-Islamic sentiment threatens to push Russian Muslims further outside the mainstream and into the arms of radicals.

Because of the Soviet legacy of religious repression, the majority of people living in Russia with Muslim backgrounds are secular, attached to Islam mostly as part of their ethnic identity. But with interest in Islam surging, Goble says, these people are open to being influenced by extremist idea.

"People who know they are Muslims but don't know exactly what that means could be radicalized, especially if they feel excluded from Russian society. It's a real threat."

At the Sobornaya Mosque, there are already some signs of the dangers ahead. One bearded young man, who refuses to give even his first name, anticipates a day when large chunks of Russia can be broken off into Islamic states. "It's only a matter of time," he says.


TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; Russia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: globaljihad; islam; jihad; muslim; muslims; population; russia; russianmuslims
And you all were worried about "Eurabia"...try this on for size.

Regards, Ivan

1 posted on 12/06/2006 6:06:29 AM PST by MadIvan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Mrs Ivan; odds; DCPatriot; Deetes; Barset; fanfan; LadyofShalott; Tolik; mtngrl@vrwc; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 12/06/2006 6:06:49 AM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: lonevoice

ping for a very alarming read.


3 posted on 12/06/2006 6:12:04 AM PST by Pride in the USA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Why is the call to prayer in Arabic? Russia has had a sizable Muslim minority for a long time; are these immigrants from Arab countries?

As for Eurabia, many Americans consider Russia part of Europe.

Russians (and EUers and Americans) should have more babies and not abort them.

4 posted on 12/06/2006 6:12:05 AM PST by Jedi Master Pikachu ( For the Republic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

I'm worried about Amerarabia.


5 posted on 12/06/2006 6:13:44 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
The Dhimmification of Russian Muslims?

I guess that they shouldn't complain if they would support it done to Christians in predominately Muslim countries.

Garde la Foi, mes amis! Jamais reculez á tyrannie un pouce!
(Keep the Faith, my friends! Never give an inch to tyranny!)

LonePalm, le Républicain du verre cassé (The Broken Glass Republican)

6 posted on 12/06/2006 6:20:21 AM PST by LonePalm (Commander and Chef)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

So what is it exactly that allows Islam to thrive when Christianity fails?

Not that Orthodoxy has been so fully embraced by the Russians, but all the same, why do Muslims breed like rats, attend worship services, and subsequently make a royal nuisance of themselves soon thereafter?


7 posted on 12/06/2006 6:37:54 AM PST by CheyennePress
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
"We shouldn't have to stand out here in the cold," says Valeev, 32. "What does it show to my son that there is no place in Moscow for us to pray?"

He could try praying at the Aeroflot boarding area at the airport.
8 posted on 12/06/2006 6:53:06 AM PST by silverleaf (Fasten your seat belts- it's going to be a BUMPY ride.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

If Russia was smart they would stop hassling the American Pentecostal, Mormon, Baptist, etc missionary efforts in their country and start subsidizing them.


9 posted on 12/06/2006 7:12:03 AM PST by azcap
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: azcap

That would involve their president not being evil.


10 posted on 12/06/2006 7:22:03 AM PST by ark_girl
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
An Islamic Russia would be a mega-disaster, not only for Russia itself but for the world. Think of a nuclear Iran times many thousands of deliverable warheads.

It seems that everywhere Muslim women are having "up to 10 children" while the native population wanes. Then they say unless the government caves in to their needs and demands, they "might be driven into the arms of radicals". This thinly veiled threat is quite real. We are going to see interesting times this century.

11 posted on 12/06/2006 7:35:19 AM PST by Sender ("Always tell the truth; then you don't have to remember anything." -Mark Twain)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Russia's overall fertility rate is 1.28 children per woman, far below what is needed to maintain the country's population of about 143 million. Muslim Russians, meanwhile, are bucking the trend, with some communities averaging as many as 10 children per woman...

Since 1989, Russia's Muslim population has increased by 40 per cent to about 25 million. By 2015, Muslims could make up a majority of Russia's conscript army and they could account for one-fifth of the country's population by 2020.

Egad. These are already "French Style" numbers.

Good-Bye, Mother Russia.

Hello, Umma Russia.

I wonder what those "new" Russians will do with all those thousands of nuclear weapons?

12 posted on 12/06/2006 7:40:35 AM PST by Gritty (It's the intersection of demography and Islamism that makes time a luxury we can't afford-Mark Steyn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

Well, it's hard to imagine more deserving subjects.


13 posted on 12/06/2006 7:52:32 AM PST by GSlob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

Mark Steyn has been calling it right for a few years now. This is one he predicted a while ago.


14 posted on 12/06/2006 7:54:20 AM PST by TChris (We scoff at honor and are shocked to find traitors among us. - C.S. Lewis)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sageb1

More like Amermexarabia


15 posted on 12/06/2006 8:16:39 AM PST by stbdside
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: CheyennePress
So what is it exactly that allows Islam to thrive when Christianity fails?

The Muslims are outbreeding the Christians. And there is no death penalty for leaving a Christian religion. - Tom

16 posted on 12/06/2006 8:28:50 AM PST by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb Republicans - Capt. Tom)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: Sender

'It seems that everywhere Muslim women are having "up to 10 children" while the native population wanes. Then they say unless the government caves in to their needs and demands, they "might be driven into the arms of radicals". This thinly veiled threat is quite real. We are going to see interesting times this century.'

No doubt. I bought the seemingly reasonable idea that two kids was a good target number when I was younger. I do still feel that human population growth is a major problem, and drives almost every negative trend we have to face in the future. However, at this point I wish I had ten kids myself since I would have done my part in the increasingly obvious REAL World War - the Population War.

Foreign Muslims will conquer Russia, and foreign Hispanics will conquer America, all without firing a shot. I've already become a minority in my native state, though I no longer reside there.


17 posted on 12/06/2006 8:29:22 AM PST by PreciousLiberty
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: PreciousLiberty

Never mind. We'll use cloning, and they, being more backward, will not be able to.


18 posted on 12/06/2006 8:46:57 AM PST by GSlob
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Pride in the USA; Stillwaters
Thanks for the ping

Russia is in the midst of startling transformation. Islamic faith is thriving across the country. If current trends continue, experts say, more than half of Russia's population will be Muslim by mid-century.

19 posted on 12/06/2006 9:17:14 AM PST by lonevoice (Vast Right Wing Pajama Party)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

all this a setup for russian attacking Israel?


20 posted on 12/06/2006 9:34:31 AM PST by GulfWar1Vet (Is it over yet?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GulfWar1Vet
all this a setup for russian attacking Israel?

Well at least it gives new perspective on why Russia is arming Iran.

Regards, Ivan

21 posted on 12/06/2006 9:35:44 AM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

Wow. Thanks for the alarming article. I knew it was bad, but not quite this bad. The 2004 numbers I had stated a population of 150 million with 20 million Muslims (13.3%). These new stats show that a Russian population of 143 million has 25 million Muslims (17.5 %). Thats much worse then France already and apparently accelerating even worse. A civil war in Russia will make Iraq look like a cakewalk.


22 posted on 12/06/2006 12:50:11 PM PST by justa-hairyape
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: justa-hairyape
Here's the bit that scares the hell out of me:

At the Sobornaya Mosque, there are already some signs of the dangers ahead. One bearded young man, who refuses to give even his first name, anticipates a day when large chunks of Russia can be broken off into Islamic states. "It's only a matter of time," he says.

In 1552, Tsar Ivan IV ("Ivan the Terrible"), sacked the city of Kazan and forced its inhabitants to convert to Christianity. It looks like it's payback time.

Regards, Ivan

23 posted on 12/06/2006 12:55:47 PM PST by MadIvan (I aim to misbehave.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: Capt. Tom

Another report just stated that a newly governed Islamic town in Somalia is going to behead anyone that does not pray 5 times a day. Going to be the local law.


24 posted on 12/06/2006 12:56:30 PM PST by justa-hairyape
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 16 | View Replies]

To: Jedi Master Pikachu; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ...
Russia has had a sizable Muslim minority for a long time; are these immigrants from Arab countries?

Muslims were present in Russia for several centuries in large numbers. Even more, they were ruling Russia for a while as Mongols/Tartars converted to Islam. It took long time and heroic effort to liberate Russia. It was as hard or maybe harder than for Spaniards.

Interestingly enough Russians were more kind in their treatment of defeated Muslims, they did not expel them, they let keep their culture, customs and religion. So you have old historical Muslim cities with large Muslim population in the core Russian territories.

One of the last lands recovered from Mongol/Tartar rule was ancient Crimea. Settled by Greeks since ancient times, then part of old Russia/Rus was place where prince Vladimir married the sister of Emperor Basil II in 989 AD and started the conversion of Russia to the Christian religion.

After Muslim conquest the Crimea became the center of harsh rule and constant predatory invasion reaching even Poland. In 1571 the Tartar hordes of Crimean Khanate burned Moscow. The original Christian population of Crimea was enslaved and reduced in numbers.

This is the quote from Wikipedia article on Crimean Khanate:

[...]

The Crimean Khanate was one of the strongest powers in Eastern Europe until the 18th century[citation needed]. Crimean Tatars played an invaluable role in defending the borders of Islam, especially against the Muscovites and Europeans. In order to prevent the Slavic settlement in the steppes, Crimean Tatar war parties (cambuls), in cooperation with the Nogays engaged in raids to Danubian principalities, Poland-Lithuania, and Muscovy.

In a process called "harvesting of the steppe" they enslaved many Slavic peasants, and acquired booty, from which the khan received a fixed split (savða) of 10 or 20%. The campaigns by Crimean forces could be divided into "sefers" - officially declared military operations led by the khans themselves, and "çapuls" - raids undertaken by separate groups of noblemen (sometimes illegal and banned because of coming in contradiction with the treaties concluded by the khans with the neighbor rulers). For a long time, until the early 18th century, the khanate maintained massive slave trade with the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East. Kefe was one of the best known and significant trading ports and slave markets.

[...]

The Crimea was recovered by Russia at the end of XVIII century. The Muslim/Tartar population was allowed to stay and was left alone well into the Soviet time when during the War World Two, Stalin being worried about alliance of Tartar Muslims with invading Nazi armies, resettled them to the other parts of Russia. After WWII majority of population there was Russian, yet it was gifted to Ukraine in 1954 by Nikita Khrushchev.

25 posted on 12/06/2006 1:44:15 PM PST by A. Pole ( Napoleon Bonaparte:There, is a sleeping giant. Let him sleep! If he wakes, he will shake the world.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: azcap
If Russia was smart they would stop hassling the American Pentecostal, Mormon, Baptist, etc missionary efforts in their country and start subsidizing them.

Of course, you forgot the Catholic missionary efforts which are substantial if under the radar.
26 posted on 12/06/2006 1:48:24 PM PST by Antoninus (Rudy as nominee = President Hillary. Why else do you think the media love him?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Islam thrives as Russia's population falls

This is the one reason that I "grimace and bear it" in regard to
the invasion of the USA by illegal immigrants.

Thank G-d that about 99.99% of them are NOT Muslims.

Unfortuantely, our own government is intent on importing more
Muslims and students from nice places like Saudi Arabia.
27 posted on 12/06/2006 1:51:05 PM PST by VOA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: elcid1970; The_Media_never_lie; quesney; kronos77; G8 Diplomat; floridavoter2; albee; ...

Russia & Eurasia Ping List


Please FRMail me if you want to be added or removed from the Russia & Eurasia Ping list.


28 posted on 12/06/2006 2:58:42 PM PST by sergey1973
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

Does anybody have any idea how islamists will react if life is discovered on Mars? If it would make them dry up and blow away I would urge increased spending on the search for life on Mars.


29 posted on 12/06/2006 3:01:03 PM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

The Pope and the Catholics need to be converting Muslims rather than re-converting the Orthodox.

And Putin needs to let the evangelicals free rein to preach the Word of the Lord as well.


30 posted on 12/06/2006 3:02:56 PM PST by eleni121 ( + En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Spurring on the mob was Alexander Belov,

Note: He's not the Alexander Belov who scored the disputed winning bucket against the US in the 1972 Olympics. Sadly, he died in 1978.

31 posted on 12/06/2006 3:03:48 PM PST by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ark_girl
That would involve their president not being evil.

And we have a winner!

32 posted on 12/06/2006 3:05:02 PM PST by zimdog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: eleni121

An Arab lady was on the 700 club last night and she said there is no such thing as a moderate ME Muslin, they are trained from birth to hate Infidels and even if they act like they are making nice, you need to check your back for the knife.


33 posted on 12/06/2006 3:05:18 PM PST by Arizona Carolyn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Like many nationalists, Belov makes no distinction between Muslim immigrants and Russian citizens of Islamic faith. He says Muslims, no matter what their citizenship, should be restricted from living in "traditional Russian lands."

As much as I despise racists and ethnic chauvinists like Belov, I'm also very worried about creeping Islamization of Russia and Europe. Because those in power refuse to treat Islam as a long term threat, Islam is marching on round the world. Unless Islam is not treated like Nazism and Communism or other dangerous political-religious ideology rather than religion, the dream of the Islamists of a global Islamic empire will come true.

34 posted on 12/06/2006 3:10:57 PM PST by sergey1973
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Well let's look at the positive side of the ledger. The new configuration of population would inevitably lead to the closure of Post #1. I suppose it would be one barbaric and hideous evil supplanting a longtime barbaric and hideous evil.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Maybe the muslim majority will dig up the remains of shamil, mummify the corpse, and open the new shrine to islamic pilgrims. Mecca, Medina, and now Moscow; the new islamic trinity.

35 posted on 12/06/2006 3:15:31 PM PST by AdvisorB
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
"In 1552, Tsar Ivan IV ("Ivan the Terrible"), sacked the city of Kazan and forced its inhabitants to convert to Christianity. It looks like it's payback time."

It will be a payback time for all Infidels for any defeat Muslims suffered from them for centuries unless infidels wake up and unite to defend themselves from Islamic menace. For now things don't look promising. Infidels are busy being at each other throats while Islam marches on. Putin continues provide generous support to the Ahmadinejad and Iranian mad mullahs and there are reports of Russian missiles in the hands of Hezbollah transferred to them allegedly through Syria--another Islamist Putin's Russia ally. Clinton Administration helped Muslims to establish their de-facto states in Bosnia and Kosovo. The Biggest Question of our time is will Infidel world unite before it's too late ?

36 posted on 12/06/2006 3:16:47 PM PST by sergey1973
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Arizona Carolyn

You are probably speaking of the wonderful lady from Lebanon---Brigitte Gabriel!

http://americancongressfortruth.com/


37 posted on 12/06/2006 3:48:22 PM PST by eleni121 ( + En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: eleni121

Yes. She's a very brave and amazing woman. I wish everyone would listen to what she has to say.


38 posted on 12/06/2006 3:57:03 PM PST by Arizona Carolyn
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan

The issue the Russians and us need to start with, is immigration. We need to stop letting Muslims immigrate here in the first place, and so do the Russians. Only when we deal with immigration -- as in closing the door -- can we begin to deal with what is here already.

I think that we need to treat Muslims in the same way we treated communists, because Islam is a political system, not just a religious one -- at least in the way that we understand religion. If Islamists attempt to overthrow our government, then we need to deal with it as we would any other internal threat to our security.


39 posted on 12/06/2006 5:00:20 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole
The Crimea was recovered by Russia at the end of XVIII century. ...yet it was gifted to Ukraine in 1954 by Nikita Khrushchev.

It was Kievan Rus which ruled Crimea before the muslims took it over, not Moscow. Clearly Kiev has the older historical claim to the area.

40 posted on 12/06/2006 8:42:01 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: MadIvan
Well, if arabs do take over Russia, what is left of you, come to Poland, and eastern europe. Let's make a friggin big eastern european army, and take them out. We would remind arabs a little of history. We would quickly make them remember the Scythians, Huns, Alans, and Sarmatians, along with a few others. I think it is safe to say that they would not very much enjoy this history lesson.
On second thought, I think an eastern european raid into arabia, and all muslim areas would be great right now. I know it's a lot to hope for, but can you just imagine a headline saying, "Russia and all of East Europe combine forces and raid innocent muslim countries." wa wa wa. Liberals the world over would be calling us anything from cruel to racist to fascist. I would be laughing and dancing with joy. Just think of all the plunder we could get from those oil rich places too.
Maybe someday. Until then, I guess we just have to do our best.

Let's pray that things get better between all of our countries, and within them too.
41 posted on 12/06/2006 9:02:16 PM PST by Polak z Polski
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sergey1973
"It will be a payback time for all Infidels for any defeat Muslims suffered from them for centuries unless infidels wake up and unite to defend themselves from Islamic menace. For now things don't look promising. Infidels are busy being at each other throats while Islam marches on"

Exactly! We have to stop squabbling! We have to start being "terrible"
42 posted on 12/06/2006 9:06:35 PM PST by Polak z Polski
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe
It was Kievan Rus which ruled Crimea before the muslims took it over, not Moscow. Clearly Kiev has the older historical claim to the area.

Rus or Russia had different capitals at different times, the first was Novgorod (near St. Petersburg), then Kiev until Mongols destroyed this city in 1240, later Moscow became the center of Rus/Russia and then St. Petersburg.

This "historical claim" is not owned by a particular city but rather by the Rus (Ukraine with Russia and Belarus as a whole). When Crimea was taken back by Russians about time of American Revolution it had little Christian population, the later migration was primarily from Russia and today majority of people in Crimea want to be part of Russia. And they would be if not Khrushchev gift.

43 posted on 12/07/2006 5:20:32 AM PST by A. Pole (John McCain: "Pick lettuce!" - http://projectusa.org/sub/forums/lettucepatch/index.php)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: A. Pole

They are part of Russia. Don't the Russian nationalists insist that Ukraine is Russia? Ukraine is Kievan Rus. They have an older claim to the name Russia than Moscow does.


44 posted on 12/08/2006 1:11:32 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Tailgunner Joe
Before Western Rus (Ukraine and Belarus) got under Lithanian/Polish rule the whole Rus was more or less one entity. The separate Ukrainie identity started to develop in XIX centure in the area around Lvov under Austrian rule.

Ukraine is Kievan Rus. They have an older claim to the name Russia than Moscow does.

The Moscow area was a part of Kievan Rus same way as Novgorod area (near St. Petersburg) or Kiev itself. You are projecting XX century politics into the past.

45 posted on 12/08/2006 6:54:21 PM PST by A. Pole (Sun Tzu: "If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: Polak z Polski
Terrible is what got you to this impasse. It won't get you out of it, it will only dig in deeper.

More children are aborted in both Russia and the Ukraine than are born there.

Killing muslims won't help.

A people that don't love life enough to bear their own children won't keep a sixth of the world's land surface.

46 posted on 12/08/2006 7:09:25 PM PST by JasonC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Bokababe
Close all the doors you want, when there is nothing left but a cemetary the masses of the world will find a way in.

The first world is committing suicide by immorality. Neither immigration nor foreign ideologies have anything essential to do with it. There is a vaccum in the heart of the modern west, and it shows up in empty houses and murdered children.

All that needs to change is for people to decide they love life, their own future, and their children, more than they love their present vices and their idiotic cynicism. If they do, all the rest will be easy. If they don't, no extra dose of cynicism or ruthlessness will remotely help.

How can a people expect solidarity from each other in some fantasy version of a grand historical cause, when in their private living reality they literally flush their own children down the drain?

47 posted on 12/08/2006 7:15:15 PM PST by JasonC
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: JasonC
"All that needs to change is for people to decide they love life, their own future, and their children, more than they love their present vices and their idiotic cynicism."

You have very valid points. But, it is also a psychologcally "a chicken & egg" concept -- "Is the Western world dying because we don't have enough babies?" Or, "Are we not having babies because we are afraid that our world is dying?" I think that the answer to both is "Yes". The question is how to stop this downward spiral -- not just individaully, but collectively, and quickly enough to recoup worldwide (or at least in the US) before it is too late.

48 posted on 12/09/2006 11:12:29 AM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson