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Holy Wisdom: Why the Pope should call for the return of the Hagia Sophia.
VDH's Private Papers ^ | 12/7/2006 | Bruce S. Thornton

Posted on 12/07/2006 10:26:19 AM PST by ZeitgeistSurfer

Many in the West are congratulating Pope Benedict XVI’s recent trip to Turkey, where in the Blue Mosque he prayed facing Mecca and made other gestures meant to salve the wounds raised by his references to Islam’s history of violence. Personally, I found the whole scene a depressing exhibit of the West’s terminal failure of nerve, one particularly distressing given this Pope’s documented understanding that what we call the “war on terror” is in fact the latest episode in the centuries-long struggle with a militant Islam.

(Excerpt) Read more at victorhanson.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: constantinople; godsgravesglyphs; hagiasophia; islam; pope; turkey
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Let us stop bending the knee to these Islamic dogs.
1 posted on 12/07/2006 10:26:21 AM PST by ZeitgeistSurfer
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

And the response from the Imam of Hagia Sophia, which has been a mosque since FOURTEEN FIFTY THREE --- "We'll give you Hagia Sophia, when you give us the Alhambra and the pagans the Pantheon." If Christians have a claim over Hagia Sophia, then the entire territory of the United States should be restored to the Indians, as the conquest of the United States happened hundreds of years later.


2 posted on 12/07/2006 10:32:06 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker

Hagia Sophia is a museum today, and doesn't have an Imam.


3 posted on 12/07/2006 10:33:35 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

Sort of like hate crimes in America. The concept only applies in one direction.


4 posted on 12/07/2006 10:34:58 AM PST by samtheman (The Democrats are the DhimmiGods of the New Religion of PC)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

I recall in the news recently that many in Turkey are calling for the Hagia Sophia to be converted from it's current use as a museum back to a mosque.


5 posted on 12/07/2006 10:35:16 AM PST by ricer1
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

He is going to suggest building three places of worship in Jerusalem - a temple, church and a mosque. A year or so from now.


6 posted on 12/07/2006 10:37:09 AM PST by rjp2005 (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Alter Kaker

The point you make is valid, and in fact the writer doesn't dispute it. His point is that for the muslims, history is a one-way ratchet. They actually believe that the Alhambra should be returned. And that they should keep Hagia Sophia and Jerusalem.

For us, there is give and take. Al Aqsa was not taken from them, and they are permitted to build mosques in every country in the west unmolested, while the Saudi church must hide in the shadows.


7 posted on 12/07/2006 10:38:11 AM PST by marron
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To: rjp2005
a temple, church and a mosque I would have thought there already were all three in Jerusalem
8 posted on 12/07/2006 10:38:59 AM PST by SF Republican
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To: Campion

My mistake. But my point remains the same. If you want to resurrect property disputes from 560 years ago, then there's really no end to the number of potential -- and ludicrous -- claims. Americans, whose continent hadn't even been discovered then, should be the first to realize that.


9 posted on 12/07/2006 10:40:05 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: ricer1

The current leadership of Turkey are pushing an islamic agenda and working to destroy the modern constitution that made Turkey a more secular country.

Won't be long before they push to have it re-labeled a mosque.


10 posted on 12/07/2006 10:46:48 AM PST by Proud_USA_Republican (We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good. - Hillary Clinton)
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To: marron

Hanson's point is that if the Muslims bring up historical grievances, then so should the West. I actually think that's nuts -- because nobody can win a grievance-off. The problem with the world is too much history, not a forgetting of it. There are many people -- Arabs (still obsessed with 12th century crusades), Serbs (still obsessed with the Battle of Kosovo in 1389) and the French (still obsessed with their own revolution) who are prisoners of their own history. America's strength is freedom from that historical baggage.


11 posted on 12/07/2006 10:48:38 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker
"...If Christians have a claim over Hagia Sophia, then the entire territory of the United States should be restored to the Indians, as the conquest of the United States happened hundreds of years later..."

From your comment I can only surmise that you, sir, are high on drugs .

The United States was once a vast wilderness of forest, mountain and meadow. The indians here did little or nothing to develop it, and in fact their nomadic existence was oftentimes a mandatory act of survival due to their utter, irresponsible depletion of resources in a given area.

The Hagia Sophia is a beautiful work of art devoted to the glory of a Christian God. It took a lot of time, effort, and willpower to create. To compare the two is apples and oranges.

And I know you're not high on drugs, it's way too early for that. I apologize.

12 posted on 12/07/2006 10:57:34 AM PST by -=SoylentSquirrel=- (I'm boycotting Best Buy, so yay for me.)
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To: Alter Kaker

The entire moslem world would consider the return of the Hagia Sophia as a huge defeat of islam to its core. It would be WWIII, which is what the author is attempting to communicate.... the total one-sided nature of the tolerance issue between islam and the west.


13 posted on 12/07/2006 11:01:20 AM PST by ricer1
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To: -=SoylentSquirrel=-
The Hagia Sophia is a beautiful work of art devoted to the glory of a Christian God. It took a lot of time, effort, and willpower to create. To compare the two is apples and oranges.

The Alhambra is a beautiful work of art devoted to the glory of an Islamic God. It took a lot of time, effort and willpower to create. Should al-Andalus be returned to the Caliphate? After all, before the Muslims, Spain was a vast wilderness of forest, mountain and meadow, ruled by backwards, feuding bands of Visigoth barbarians.

Note that I'm not seriously suggesting that Spain be returned to Islamic rule, but I am saying that when you start with this line of thinking, there's no limit to the lunacy you get yourself into.

14 posted on 12/07/2006 11:03:02 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
Let us stop bending the knee to these Islamic dogs.

As long as Islam rules in Constantinople, Hagia Sophia will remain a museum--at best.
15 posted on 12/07/2006 11:03:06 AM PST by Antoninus (Rudy as nominee = President Hillary. Why else do you think the media love him?)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

If I were the pope, I would have bowed 180 degrees away from Mecca, and then let one rip!


16 posted on 12/07/2006 11:06:40 AM PST by deathrace2000 (AP Photo shows Iranís new President as 1979 US hostage-taker)
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To: Alter Kaker

I guess I consider "my side" to posess the moral high ground in this matter because the muslims fought wars of aggression to get the lands they now posess, whereas the Christians tended to yield territory. The Alhambra is located in territory that was historically Christian, and was won back by them. It's not the same as if we invaded Saudi Arabia and occupied Mecca.


17 posted on 12/07/2006 11:07:53 AM PST by -=SoylentSquirrel=- (I'm boycotting Best Buy, so yay for me.)
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To: -=SoylentSquirrel=-
I guess I consider "my side" to posess the moral high ground in this matter because the muslims fought wars of aggression to get the lands they now posess, whereas the Christians tended to yield territory.

The Muslims conquered the Sassanids, who conquered the Parthians, and the Byzantines, who descended from the Romans, and who conquered the Seleucids, the Attalids, the Antigonids and the Ptolemids, who were in turn descended from Alexander the Great, who conquered the Achaemenids, who conquered the Medes, etc.

Nobody has the moral ground, because every piece of land was conquered from somebody else if you look back far enough.

18 posted on 12/07/2006 11:14:35 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker
Hanson's point is that if the Muslims bring up historical grievances, then so should the West. I actually think that's nuts -- because nobody can win a grievance-off.

No one, not even Thornton, is saying that the Turks have any legal obligation to return Hagia Sophia. Spoils of war. But there is a one-way-ratchet-mentality involved here. Al Aqsa was left in muslim hands, as well it should be. In return, what? Saudi-funded mosques are welcomed in every country in the west, and in return, what?

If there is no legal obligation to "return" Hagia Sophia, or to vacate Constantinople and return it to the Greeks, or for the Turks to return to the steppes from which they came, they could still allow the orthodox to hold the occasional mass there. It probably should remain a museum. But there would be nothing wrong with allowing Christians to hold an occasional service there. Hagia Sophia is probably as important to orthodox as Al Aqsa is to arabs.

In a way, we prove the writer's point when we accept that muslims have the right to build mosques where ever they go, but to press for the right to build churches in Saudi Arabia, for example, or to hold mass in Hagia Sophia, is considered radical and unrealistic. Unrealistic it is, but radical it is not.

19 posted on 12/07/2006 11:19:41 AM PST by marron
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
Many in the West are congratulating Pope Benedict XVI’s recent trip to Turkey, where in the Blue Mosque he prayed facing Mecca and made other gestures meant to salve the wounds raised by his references to Islam’s history of violence.

This westerner is made sick by this kind of crap. Makes me glad I'm not a Catholic. After this, I'd have to leave the church anyway.

20 posted on 12/07/2006 11:22:22 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: deathrace2000
If I were the pope, I would have bowed 180 degrees away from Mecca, and then let one rip!

LOL... I like your humor.
21 posted on 12/07/2006 11:23:12 AM PST by ricer1
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To: deathrace2000

Who's to say he was facing Mecca? Maybe he was praying in the direction of Jerusalem, or Djibouti, or Tahiti.


22 posted on 12/07/2006 11:24:09 AM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
Wiki's reference on Hagia Sophia.

That's a good read with pictures.
23 posted on 12/07/2006 11:27:22 AM PST by ricer1
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To: Alter Kaker
Lets just give Egypt back to the Greeks then... Oh wait, lets give Egypt back to the Phoenicians... Oh wait, lets give Egypt back to the ...
24 posted on 12/07/2006 11:29:57 AM PST by DariusBane (Shock and Awe used to mean something! (Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Tokyo and Dresden))
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To: Alter Kaker

Good thing the Jews did not follow your logic otherwise there would be no State of Israel today.


25 posted on 12/07/2006 11:38:15 AM PST by Witch-king of Angmar
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To: Alter Kaker
And the response from the Imam of Hagia Sophia

The Hagia Sophia has no imam. It does have a curator.

which has been a mosque since FOURTEEN FIFTY THREE

It is not a mosque.

It was a church from 325-1453.

It was a mosque from 1453-1935.

It is now a museum.

It was a church more than twice as long as it was a mosque.

We'll give you Hagia Sophia, when you give us the Alhambra

The Alhambra was a palace, not a mosque.

i'm sure there was a portion of the Alhambra set aside for the royal household's personal prayer, the Alhambra was not even an important mosque, let alone one of the two most important mosques in the world.

and the pagans the Pantheon

The Pantheon belonged to the Emperor of Rome. It was his property to dispose of as he wished, and he decided to convert it into a church.

The hagia Sophia was not converted by its rightful owner.

A silly argument.

The ownership of the hagia Sophia was an established matter of law recognized internationally.

The Greeks were not squatting on property to which they had made no legal claim.

26 posted on 12/07/2006 11:39:21 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Alter Kaker
The Alhambra is a beautiful work of art devoted to the glory of an Islamic God.

No, it is a cluster of buildings designed as an administrative center and residence for the Nazrid rulers of Granada.

If it is analogous to anything in Christian Constantinople, it is analogous to the palace of the Roman Emperor.

27 posted on 12/07/2006 11:42:17 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Witch-king of Angmar
Good thing the Jews did not follow your logic otherwise there would be no State of Israel today.

The State of Israel exists to provide the Jews with a homeland, following centuries of oppression. It does not exist to specifically avenge Hadrian's persecutions of the 2nd century CE.

28 posted on 12/07/2006 11:47:48 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: wideawake

Constantinople is Turkish, by Right of Conquest, a legal principle recognized by all parties from the beginning of time until the creeping liberalism of the 20th century. The same way that Constantinople was Romano-Byzantine by Right of Conquest (just ask the Antigonids who ruled Byzantium until they were conquered by the Romans). If you want to conquer it "back," then go right ahead. But don't pretend that the Turks don't have legal claim to it.


29 posted on 12/07/2006 11:53:47 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: wideawake
No, it is a cluster of buildings designed as an administrative center and residence for the Nazrid rulers of Granada.

A cluster of buildings that featured a mosque. If you want another analogy, how about the Mezquita in Cordoba?

30 posted on 12/07/2006 11:59:48 AM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker

Well the Orthodox were robbed of their spritual homeland and it is right that they reclaim it just like the Spaniards did with the Reconquista.


31 posted on 12/07/2006 12:18:22 PM PST by Witch-king of Angmar
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To: Witch-king of Angmar
Well the Orthodox were robbed of their spritual homeland and it is right that they reclaim it just like the Spaniards did with the Reconquista.

The Orthodox tend to believe that they can live in Israel, but they can't reconquer their spiritual homeland. Only the Messiah can do that. Read Maimonides.

32 posted on 12/07/2006 12:24:27 PM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: Alter Kaker

well put.


33 posted on 12/07/2006 12:24:54 PM PST by zimdog
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To: deathrace2000

one of the many reasons why you're not the pope


34 posted on 12/07/2006 12:25:29 PM PST by zimdog
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To: Alter Kaker

Look, I have very little time to discuss with you but the double standards you use are fairly obvious. I'll just say this and close it from my side: the Jews reclaimed Israel by being, as you so eloquently put it, obsessed with Jerusalem. If it was legitimate for them so it is for others whose homeland was taken away by force.


35 posted on 12/07/2006 12:28:14 PM PST by Witch-king of Angmar
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To: Alter Kaker

I was under the impression that it was a Christian Church for 1000 years before it was forcefully converted to a mosque.


36 posted on 12/07/2006 12:30:38 PM PST by coon2000
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To: coon2000
I was under the impression that it was a Christian Church for 1000 years before it was forcefully converted to a mosque.

Correct....in the year 1453. Of course many Catholic churches in Spain were once mosques that were forcefully converted to churches. Not to mention the Mexico City Cathedral, built on top of the Grand Temple of the Aztecs (which I believe was not done with full Aztec consent). 600 year grievances tend not to be too productive.

37 posted on 12/07/2006 12:35:36 PM PST by Alter Kaker ("Whatever tears one sheds, in the end one always blows one's nose." - Heine)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
I have more than a little problem with Joe Ratzinger facing Mecca to pray.

The rites and rituals of all religions have specific meanings. Words and actions also have meaning. When a person from one faith performs actions (especially ritual actions) of another incompatible faith, it is heresy.

Islam in all its forms roundly and utterly rejects the foundation of Christianity, namely, that Jesus is God. Christianity in all its forms roundly and utterly rejects the foundations of Islam and all other religions.

The idea that he can have it both ways -- profess to be a One-Way-To-Heaven follower of Jesus, and pretend to (or really) pray to Mecca -- especially in the context of a mosque -- seems ludicrous to me.

I would like to hear others' views on this.

38 posted on 12/07/2006 12:40:26 PM PST by Silly (Still being... Silly)
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To: Alter Kaker
My mistake. But my point remains the same. If you want to resurrect property disputes from 560 years ago, then there's really no end to the number of potential -- and ludicrous -- claims. Americans, whose continent hadn't even been discovered then, should be the first to realize that.

I remember reading sometime in the last few years that Egyptian lawyers were considering suing Israel in the Hague for the plunder taken by the Hebrews as they escaped from Pharoh as described in the book of Exodus.

39 posted on 12/07/2006 12:52:23 PM PST by FateAmenableToChange
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To: -=SoylentSquirrel=-

A more appropriate comparison would be to propose the return of the mosque at Cordoba (now a Christian cathedral) to the Moslems. (The Alhambra, mentioned here several times, isn't a very good comparison because the Alhambra was not a religious edifice in the first place.)

Or the return of the Great Synagogue in Toledo, also now a Christian church, to Jewish worship.

Or for that matter, the return of all the pre-Reformation churches and cathedrals in England and Scotland to the Roman Catholic Church.

None of this is going to happen. History is history.


40 posted on 12/07/2006 1:03:55 PM PST by EdJay
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To: EdJay
Thornton is making a valid point by using the Hagia Sophia and its history. We should not show any more tolerance for the Muzzies and any of their historical claims. Every piece of Muslim ground is the result violent conquest and subjugation of their victims. Every claim or demand that comes from them should be met by an equal or greater claim or demand from us. We should DEMAND the ability to open churches in Muslim lands if they want to have mosques in ours. Why should there be a one-way street?
41 posted on 12/07/2006 1:11:23 PM PST by ZeitgeistSurfer (The Democrats solution is poison. When the patient is dying, their solution - more poison.)
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To: Alter Kaker

"If Christians have a claim over Hagia Sophia, then the entire territory of the United States should be restored to the Indians, as the conquest of the United States happened hundreds of years later."

As if the creation of a modern nation with railroads, highways, skyscrapers, modern technology and the highest standard of living from a wilderness once roamed by people stuck in the iron-age with no written language or even the wheel can compare to the wholesale theft of one of the greatest cities of the classical age can be equated.

Or simply put: We created a nation from nothing. The savages in Europe occupied a nation they could never create if they had 10,000 years.


42 posted on 12/07/2006 3:50:41 PM PST by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Alter Kaker

"If Christians have a claim over Hagia Sophia, then the entire territory of the United States should be restored to the Indians, as the conquest of the United States happened hundreds of years later."

As if the creation of a modern nation with railroads, highways, skyscrapers, modern technology and the highest standard of living from a wilderness once roamed by people stuck in the iron-age with no written language or even the wheel can compare to the wholesale theft of one of the greatest cities of the classical age can be equated.

Or simply put: We created a nation from nothing. The savages in Europe occupied a nation they could never create if they had 10,000 years.


43 posted on 12/07/2006 3:50:44 PM PST by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus,Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: Proud_USA_Republican
No doubt many secular Turks wish the Moslem community there would undertake 100% of the massive cost of maintaining that old building in any sort of working order.

Remember, this wasn't really a Christian church building like you and I might think of a church building ~ instead of serving the interests of the Christian community as a whole it was little more than the private chapel of the Emperor.

The Faithful should not be expected to have their contributions on Sunday tossed away so casually.

44 posted on 12/07/2006 5:20:30 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: -=SoylentSquirrel=-
You missed the part about American Indians being much more numerous ~ probably way in excess of 100,000,000 people.

Vast stretches of North and South America were converted over to agriculture, and many different writing systems were invented. You can find remains of their civilizations in many different places.

45 posted on 12/07/2006 5:22:54 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Silly
Since the Pope was never a Moslem, if he wants to face Mecca, or Medina, or the Straits of Hormuz, it's NOT heresy.

Remember, heretics are the folks who abandoned your religion for another religion (or another seriously different version of the same religion).

As an example, today almost all Protestants are not heretics ~ that's because they were never Catholics. However, the first Protestants were heretics. Which is, of course, why they referred to themselves as "Reformers". Polite Catholics hoping to avoid armed conflict also referred to early Protestant heretics as "Reformers".

Later on war happened anyway ~ Germany was nearly exterminated ~ Huguenots were murdered and driven to the far corners of the world ~ and finally the Treaty of Westphalia was signed and life went on as normal with the exception that Western European Christians quit calling each other heretics and they quit killing each other in the name of God (with the exception of the 17th Century when the Edict of Nantes was rescinded by the King of France and even more Huguenots poured out of France to go even further).

Non-Western European peoples have not yet learned this lesson.

46 posted on 12/07/2006 5:34:57 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ffusco
Glad you mentioned "skyscrapers". Your best and most productive high steel workers are, of course, Mohawk Indians.

Without them your skyscrapers would be many fewer in number and far more expensive.

47 posted on 12/07/2006 5:37:04 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

We're using different definitions of heretic. We can talk later.

Silly


48 posted on 12/07/2006 6:43:43 PM PST by Silly (Still being... Silly)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer

LOL!

Ha ha haaa!

Du voll idiot :))


49 posted on 12/07/2006 7:37:39 PM PST by a_Turk (Temperance, Fortitude, Prudence, Justice, Comitas, Firmitas, Gravitas, Humanitas, Industria..)
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To: ZeitgeistSurfer
[ Holy Wisdom: Why the Pope should call for the return of the Hagia Sophia. ]

The Church is NOT a building.. or a tax exempt organization..

50 posted on 12/07/2006 7:41:19 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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