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Scope of 2nd Amendment's questioned
Yahoo ^

Posted on 12/07/2006 11:58:08 AM PST by Sub-Driver

Scope of 2nd Amendment's questioned

By MATT APUZZO, Associated Press Writer 5 minutes ago

In a case that could shape firearms laws nationwide, attorneys for the District of Columbia argued Thursday that the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms applies only to militias, not individuals.

The city defended as constitutional its long-standing ban on handguns, a law that some gun opponents have advocated elsewhere. Civil liberties groups and pro-gun organizations say the ban in unconstitutional.

At issue in the case before a federal appeals court is whether the 2nd Amendment right to "keep and bear arms" applies to all people or only to "a well regulated militia." The Bush administration has endorsed individual gun-ownership rights but the Supreme Court has never settled the issue.

If the dispute makes it to the high court, it would be the first case in nearly 70 years to address the amendment's scope. The court disappointed gun owner groups in 2003 when it refused to take up a challenge to California's ban on high-powered weapons.

In the Washington, D.C. case, a lower-court judge told six city residents in 2004 that they did not have a constitutional right to own handguns. The plaintiffs include residents of high-crime neighborhoods who want guns for protection.

Courts have upheld bans on automatic weapons and sawed-off shotguns but this case is unusual because it involves a prohibition on all pistols. Voters passed a similar ban in San Francisco last year but a judge ruled it violated state law. The Washington case is not clouded by state law and hinges directly on the Constitution.

"We interpret the 2nd Amendment in military terms," said Todd Kim, the District's solicitor general, who told the U.S. Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit that the city would...

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2ndinterpretation; bang; banglist; judiciary; secondamendment; wearethemilitia
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To: tpaine; SampleMan

Property rights attack continues
By Walter E. Williams
Wednesday, August 30, 2006

Last year, the U.S. Supreme Court, in its Kelo v. New London decision, ruled that the private property of one American could be taken and given to another American as long as it served a public purpose. The public purpose in that case was greater tax revenues for the fiscally strapped city of New London. The city figured that if it used its powers of eminent domain to force private homeowners out and then transferred their property to developers to build commercial property, there would be greater tax revenues.

Many Americans were angered by this violation of both the letter and spirit of the Fifth Amendment, which in part reads, ". . . nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." Public purpose is not the same as public use. Public use means property can be taken, with just compensation, to build a road, a highway, a fort or some other public project.

My response to the Kelo decision was, "See, I told you so." For decades, Americans have been willing to allow politicians to trample over private property rights, so why should we be surprised when politicians become more emboldened?

Here's a brief history. The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers fined one landowner $300,000 for "destroying" wetlands because he cleared a backed-up drainage ditch on his property. The Fish & Wildlife Service told one landowner he couldn't use 1,000 acres of his property so the endangered red-cockaded woodpecker could have a place to dwell. Another owner was prevented from clearing dry brush near his home to make a firebreak because it would disturb the Stephens kangaroo rat. Building a deck on his house brought one owner a $30,000 fine for casting a shadow on wetlands.

Smoking bans are another violation of private property rights supported by most Americans. If a person owns a restaurant, it is his right to decide whether or not he will permit smoking. If a restaurant owner wishes to permit smoking, he might put up a "Smoking Permitted" sign and let customers decide whether they wish to enter. Similarly, if an owner didn't permit smoking, he might put up a "No Smoking" sign and let customers decide.

I'm guessing that a restaurant owner who didn't permit smoking would see it as a violation of his property rights if a coalition used the political arena to create legislation forcing him to permit smoking. It is no less of a property rights violation the other way around.

Tyranny breeds tyranny. Chicago's City Council recently enacted a ban on foie gras -- a French delicacy made of duck and goose liver. The ostensible justification given for the ban is that foie gras represents cruelty to animals because it involves force-feeding ducks and geese in order to fatten up their livers. Mayor Richard M. Daley has mocked the ban as the "silliest law" passed by the council. Pressured by animal rights activists, a Philadelphia councilman, following his Chicago brethren, has recently introduced legislation that would ban foie gras in Philadelphia restaurants. These bans are just more of the same -- attacks on private property rights.

Animal rights wackos won't be satisfied with banning foie gras. Why not ban lobsters for the same reason as the ban on foie gras? After all, putting a live lobster in boiling water can be interpreted as cruelty to animals. What about banning beef? Can't it be interpreted as cruel to leave a calf parentless by slaughtering his mother and father? John Adams warned, "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. Property must be sacred or liberty cannot exist."


1,761 posted on 12/16/2006 6:42:52 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
I've never smoked. Don't like it. Am glad when people aren't smoking at the table next to me. AND I understand that the NO SMOKING laws are incredible violations of a person's property rights to run their business as they wish.
1,762 posted on 12/16/2006 6:58:34 AM PST by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: Luis Gonzalez
"You’ll see certain Pythagoreans whose belief in communism of property goes to such lengths that they pick up anything lying about unguarded, and make off with it without a qualm of conscience as if it had come to them by law." - Desiderius Erasmus

Zing!

1,763 posted on 12/16/2006 7:04:53 AM PST by Mojave
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To: SampleMan
"You're no doubt thinking that WWII could have been avoided if the Poles had simply been more tolerant of the German's right to travel Europe heavily armed."

OUCH!!!!

1,764 posted on 12/16/2006 7:56:33 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: Mojave

You again... Stop it. I'm done trying to reason with the unreasonable.


1,765 posted on 12/16/2006 8:39:05 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be.)
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To: SampleMan
Shut up. No one wants to hear it anymore. 1700+ posts of your trying to dictate what I may or may not go about in public carrying thereby violating MY property Rights while still trying to garner the benefits of having an OPEN to the PUBLIC business.

Just stop pinging me.

1,766 posted on 12/16/2006 8:41:00 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be.)
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To: Dead Corpse

Privately owned, Comrade Dead Corpse.


1,767 posted on 12/16/2006 8:42:03 AM PST by Mojave
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To: Mojave
Then chain your doors shut lest one of us proletariat types dares to trespass on your hollowed ground while daring to think our Rights mean a damn to you.

Piss off.

1,768 posted on 12/16/2006 8:43:41 AM PST by Dead Corpse (Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be.)
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To: Dead Corpse
Then chain your doors shut lest one of us proletariat types dares to trespass

Socialist.

1,769 posted on 12/16/2006 9:09:04 AM PST by Mojave
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To: Dead Corpse
No one wants to hear it anymore.

Precisely, you don't want to here it. Fair enough.

1,770 posted on 12/16/2006 9:16:00 AM PST by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: SampleMan
As it doesn't get simpler than that,

Yes it does. A person is entitled to possess their 'life'- a class of property which trumps others. A landlord or owner of other propery has no 'right' to impose conditioins that preclude a person from exercising this basic right.

1,771 posted on 12/16/2006 9:19:01 AM PST by budwiesest
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To: SampleMan; Luis Gonzalez; y'all
Here's a little thought exercise for all you property fundamentalists on the right to carry issue. [expanded]

I'm a general building contractor, and I used to occasionally work for ranch or estate owners -- people who routinely 'post' their property with signs saying "-- No Guns, No Hunting --".
Most post because they want to sell hunting rights, not to ban hunting or guns.


During the bidding process, I would routinely arrive at their property in my pickup, w/gun rack in the the rear window, and normally I would mention that I was always looking for property to hunt on.
-- Thus they were well aware that I carried arms in my work vehicles, -- often..
-- But as they had ~invited~ me to their property to bid on work, the subject of hunting or guns would not be discussed in detail.


--- Now after a routine construction contract had been signed, and I commenced work at their home property, let's say the lady of the house noticed a shotgun in my trucks rack and told me to not bring a gun on her property from then on.
I suspect I would smile, say yes mam, make a mental note that this woman was weird about guns, and I might explain that I was hunting elsewhere after work that day..

On subsequent days ~if I so chose~, I could continue to carry my shotgun, ~[inside behind the seat, or in a toolbox, so as to not 'alarm' the irrational housewife] -- without violating any known laws, --- as my construction contract gave me permission to be on the homeowners property w/tools, -- to do the job as per plans & specifications. --


--- Nothing in that contract, or in common or constitutional law, gives that homeowner the right to infringe on my right to carry that shotgun in my truck, just like the rest of my tools. ---

I'm well aware that by taking that gun ~out of the truck- or out of my toolbox, -- I'd be on shaky constitutional & legal ground as a home property owner can be as weird about guns as she chooses.



- But in any case, - carrying that shotgun did not affect the homeowners property rights in ANY way..


Get the principle yet fellas?

Obviously, you cannot or will not.. Why? -- Why is our right to carry such a threat to you that you would deny invited guest workers on your property a gun in their vehicles? A gun is just another tool, like hammers, knives, etc. -- All are also weapons.
Either you trust your employees with weapons, or you do it yourself.

And in my experience, those afraid of weapons cannot do for themselves. Its sort of a catch 22 situation. These weird people are afraid of other [armed] people, yet they need them.

-- What to do? -- In their panic they attempt to ban arms, - guns, knives, hammers..

-- Then we all lose, as Koestler put it so eloquently..
1,772 posted on 12/16/2006 9:27:33 AM PST by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: William Tell

So you are saying that grammar is held in low esteem by some Freepers because it is the essiential body of knowledge necessary to know what a sentence means? That's true. Some Freepers think looking good to some purported general public is the most important thing, yet Micheal Jackson uses good grammar while hanging babies out of high windows.


1,773 posted on 12/16/2006 9:29:07 AM PST by bvw
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To: budwiesest
Well said. -- But be prepared for another umpteen posts on how owning property gives one a magical ability to ignore everyone else's rights to life, liberty, property..
1,774 posted on 12/16/2006 9:37:26 AM PST by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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To: SampleMan

Bums hate hearing an owner tell them, "Get out."


1,775 posted on 12/16/2006 9:39:29 AM PST by Mojave
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To: L98Fiero
"We interpret the 2nd Amendment in military terms," said Todd Kim"

When guns are outlawed, only the gang-bangers will have guns.

...hey wait. DC is like that already.

1,776 posted on 12/16/2006 10:05:16 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: tpaine

#1753 & 1754 still apply.


1,777 posted on 12/16/2006 10:10:31 AM PST by SampleMan (Islamic tolerance is practiced by killing you last.)
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To: tpaine
"You’ll see certain Pythagoreans whose belief in communism of property goes to such lengths that they pick up anything lying about unguarded, and make off with it without a qualm of conscience as if it had come to them by law." - Desiderius Erasmus
1,778 posted on 12/16/2006 10:30:42 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: tpaine

"The moment the idea is admitted into society, that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence." -- John Adams, Founding Father.


1,779 posted on 12/16/2006 10:32:22 AM PST by Luis Gonzalez (Some people see the world as they would want it to be, effective people see the world as it is.)
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To: y'all

How sad.. You fellas are reduced to simply repeating your previous non sequitors.


You two simply cannot or will not argue to the point of the issue:

"-- Ownership does not always mean absolute dominion. The more an owner, for his advantage, opens up his property for use by the public in general, the more do his rights become circumscribed by the statutory and constitutional rights of those who use it. ---"

"-- the right of a homeowner to regulate the conduct of his guests --" is not at issue. -- the right of a business-owner to regulate the conduct, "and constitutional rights" of his customers, is indeed at issue.


1,780 posted on 12/16/2006 10:41:21 AM PST by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia)
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