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Military meets, exceeds recruiting goals
AP on Yahoo ^ | 12/12/06 | Pauline Jelinek - ap

Posted on 12/12/2006 2:28:38 PM PST by NormsRevenge

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To: dakine
Where are you getting your information about the economy? It's doing far better than has been reported.

As for the military, since the war in Iraq began, the ratio of wealthy to poor has increased. In other words, the war has caused more upper middle class enlistments and less poor.

So you're wrong on all counts.

51 posted on 12/12/2006 7:35:17 PM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: dakine; kinghorse
I guess discussing ideas/thoughts are not allowed on this thread. Sorry

LOL! What you said was an 'idea' and what kinghorse said about young people loving their country is not?

How exactly do you make that work?

Defend your hypothesis with some facts, dakine. I'd really like to know what you have to back up your 'idea' that the economy is bad and that people are enlisting because of economic need.

(While research proves quite the opposite).

52 posted on 12/12/2006 7:38:37 PM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: dakine
Here is some information from the Heritage Foundation from 2005 to refute your hypothesis.

There's lots more out there if you need it to further correct your 'idea.'

53 posted on 12/12/2006 7:44:02 PM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: Steel Wolf
Let not kid ourselves, we are at war. It easy to demand perfect standards when you are not at war. Seems to me the people who scream loudest about "The American people need to realize we are at war and make sacrifices" should not also then turn around be the same people trash talking every single issue related to the war.
54 posted on 12/12/2006 7:46:38 PM PST by MNJohnnie (I do not forgive Senator John McCain for helping destroy everything we built since 1980.)
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To: NormsRevenge

Back to the Top


55 posted on 12/12/2006 7:46:52 PM PST by MNJohnnie (I do not forgive Senator John McCain for helping destroy everything we built since 1980.)
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To: NormsRevenge

It's odd, I don't remember the msm doing this monthly analysis during the clintoon years.


56 posted on 12/12/2006 7:48:09 PM PST by tang-soo (Prophecy of the Seventy Weeks - Read Daniel Chapter 9)
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To: ohioWfan; dakine
Don't waste your time. dakine here makes punk comments and runs away. Just another one of those people who finds it amusing to pick fights rather then actually try discussing any issue rationally.

Lower average unemployment rate then the Clinton years. Longest sustained GDP growth since the 1980s, Average wages increasing, highest per capita private home ownership, etc etc etc. But dakine will simply ignore all the Economic facts since that is not what his paymasters at the DNC tell him to scream.
57 posted on 12/12/2006 7:50:44 PM PST by MNJohnnie (I do not forgive Senator John McCain for helping destroy everything we built since 1980.)
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To: MNJohnnie; dakine
I'm not sure how 'punk' his comments are, but they certainly are uneducated....

THIS article is from today.

Paints a little different picture than dakine is trying to portray.

I always wonder if these naysayers are DNC plants. I seriously do.....

58 posted on 12/12/2006 7:54:48 PM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: MNJohnnie
btw, the RATS have to hate the words "BUSH BOOM".

Apparently it sends some of them running...... :)

59 posted on 12/12/2006 7:57:16 PM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: Diana in Wisconsin
Diana, I praise your loyalty to our country and also praise you for your service to her.

I joined in 1978, seven days after my last drinking binge as a free man and eight days after graduating high school. I was disappointed not to fight in Viet Nam, as strange as that sounds now. I went to school to be a military police officer, airborne, Ranger, and a sniper. I was involved in three operations during my time in the Army. I was wounded in Germany in 1985 and medically discharged in 1987. I loved the lifestyle in the Army. I loved serving my country. I was proud to protect my country and other countries from communism and any other threat to her. I would rejoin today if I could, but my disabilities won't allow me to.
Every time I see a veteran or active duty military person, I go out of my way to go over to them, shake their hand and thank them for their service to a country who, for the most part now, don't want them to WIN in Iraq and Afghanistan. I dislike and distrust any politician that doesn't WANT a victory, i.e: sKerry, Pelois, etc.... I can't understand why Washington won't let the generals do what they are supposed to do. Kill the enemy and win the war.
Lastly, I apologize to FR'ers for me carrying on. God love us and our country. May He help the politicians see what they are doing is wrong and may He protect the service personnel from danger while they do their duty.
60 posted on 12/12/2006 8:10:59 PM PST by antiunion person (Thanks to all our service people who are in harm's way.)
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To: mystery-ak; mike1sg; Milo828; ohioWfan

fyi


61 posted on 12/12/2006 8:20:31 PM PST by GretchenM (What does it profit a man to gain the whole world and lose his soul? Please meet my friend, Jesus)
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To: tobyhill

Seriously, Hydroshock is right. I'm in the Navy right now, but when I get commissioned I hope to be a Marine and his post was one of the funniest things I've read...I was literally laughing out loud.


62 posted on 12/12/2006 8:57:57 PM PST by glennshepard
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To: dakine

If recruiting is good, the economy must be bad....is that it?


63 posted on 12/12/2006 9:06:32 PM PST by Just Lori (Blessed are the peacemakers: ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD!!!!)
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To: dakine
I guess discussing ideas/thoughts are not allowed on this thread. Sorry, I thought otherwise...carry on...

That's what Kinghorse was doing. Bringing his ideas in on the discussion. You're allowed to speak your mind, and he is allowed to speak his. It goes both ways.

64 posted on 12/12/2006 9:10:06 PM PST by Just Lori (Blessed are the peacemakers: ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD!!!!)
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To: Xenalyte; NormsRevenge
Jesus, I am SICK of stupid writing.

You really think Norm is Jesus? Hey Norm! When did ya get the promotion???

65 posted on 12/12/2006 9:12:09 PM PST by Just Lori (Blessed are the peacemakers: ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD!!!!)
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To: leadpenny
Six years is way too long to continue to place any blame on the Clinton administration.

Clinton hurt our Military, financially and otherwise. How many years were you in the service during the Clinton administration? He did almost as much damage to it as Carter did.

66 posted on 12/12/2006 9:18:49 PM PST by Just Lori (Blessed are the peacemakers: ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD!!!!)
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To: Just Lori

Heh. If that were the case then the Carter years should've been the proudest in Military history, eh?

Volunteer recruits in wartime show the purest form of patriotism, IMHO. What it means is that there are still plenty of people that "get it".


67 posted on 12/12/2006 9:22:03 PM PST by Ramius ([sip])
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To: dakine
I guess discussing ideas/thoughts are not allowed on this thread. Sorry, I thought otherwise...carry on...

Thoughts/ideas are allowed. Dumb comments are frowned upon, though...
68 posted on 12/12/2006 9:22:13 PM PST by Antoninus ("Dealing with the pampered and effeminate Americans will be easy." --Osama bin Laden)
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To: Hydroshock
If you meant sarcasm, put a tag on it. If you don't know what that is, it looks like this:

/s

If you did not mean sarcasm, I pity you.

69 posted on 12/12/2006 9:25:24 PM PST by Just Lori (Blessed are the peacemakers: ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD!!!!)
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To: Hydroshock

Very happy you were kiddin' around. It's just that sometimes it's hard to tell.


70 posted on 12/12/2006 9:31:47 PM PST by Just Lori (Blessed are the peacemakers: ARMY, NAVY, AIR FORCE, MARINES, COAST GUARD!!!!)
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To: Just Lori; leadpenny

Bump for when leadpenny gets up in a few hours.


71 posted on 12/12/2006 9:39:39 PM PST by Springman
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To: NormsRevenge
Dissatisfaction with President Bush's handling of Iraq has climbed to an all-time high of 71 percent, according to the AP-Ipsos survey this month. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I guess that the new recruits for American Forces do not listen to or read the MSM propaganda.

Of course this fact makes recruits stupid and ignorant university drop outs, that the federal government is exploiting unfairly! Kerry thinks so. ( sarc.)

72 posted on 12/12/2006 10:32:57 PM PST by Candor7 (Into Liberal flatulance goes the best hope of the West, and who wants to be a smart feller?)
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To: Just Lori

A president has to play the cards he's dealt. You're not going to get me to defend Carter or Clinton, but each were at the mercy of the times in which they served. Carter was pretty much the caretaker of the military that was trying to recover from the effects of Vietnam. Clinton had to manage what we commonly call "The Peace Dividend." The Reagan and Bush Administrations brought down the wall and Clinton had to deal with a World that was unaccustomed to having only one super power.

President Bush has had six years to prepare the country and the military for whatever has to be done. History will judge how well he has done and is doing, and it won't have anything to do with what Clinton did or didn't do with the military.

Did I serve under Clinton? No, but I have a son who spent almost the entire time as an enlisted man during the Clinton years. He made all the deployments beginning with Haiti. He's now a Captain serving in Kirkuk. If has opinions on politics in Washington and elsewhere, he pretty much keeps them to himself.

Me? I served during the last two years of the Kennedy Administration, the first two years of the Reagan Administration, and everything in between. Even after I began to become politically aware during the turbulent events of 1968, I still was busy looking out for the guys on my left and right. Soldiers don't usually have the time, nor do they care to get involved in politics.


73 posted on 12/13/2006 12:13:59 AM PST by leadpenny
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To: Springman

I'm going back to bed.


74 posted on 12/13/2006 12:16:41 AM PST by leadpenny
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To: Red6
Just like any officer who wants to slam the President or the War can make the morning talk show circuit, land a book contract, go on a university speaking tour... Do you ever hear from a former General that does support the war?
75 posted on 12/13/2006 12:27:41 AM PST by chudogg (Woof Woof)
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To: MNJohnnie

"... dakine here makes punk comments and runs away."

Sorry to disappoint ya' pal, just wanted to start/see a discussion...not an echo chamber...I can't stay at the computer all day, the library kicks me out....


".. that is not what his paymasters at the DNC tell him to scream."

Do you believe the above? Or shall I replace DNC with RNC and apply it towards you? You're a tool.







76 posted on 12/13/2006 1:21:46 AM PST by dakine
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To: Diana in Wisconsin

Oh, I know there are good reasons for enlisting. I just like to try and look at the other side....


77 posted on 12/13/2006 1:23:43 AM PST by dakine
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear

Only one reason for enlisting?

Ok...


78 posted on 12/13/2006 1:25:14 AM PST by dakine
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To: ohioWfan

Military comes from higher-income backgrounds because the opportunities out in the economy do not support the continuance of that lifestyle?
Not saying all, for a small part of the enlistees it could be a factor.
The broad brush approach to the reasons for enlisting is wrong no matter what reason is chosen.


79 posted on 12/13/2006 1:33:57 AM PST by dakine
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To: Antoninus

You continue to post....


80 posted on 12/13/2006 1:35:50 AM PST by dakine
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To: dakine
"economy not doing well"

That was a satirical comment, right?

81 posted on 12/13/2006 1:43:28 AM PST by driftless2
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To: driftless2

Keep reading, it gets better...


82 posted on 12/13/2006 1:45:47 AM PST by dakine
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To: Just Lori

"Clinton hurt our Military, financially and otherwise."

I don't want to pick a fight, but can you explain how Clinton hur our Military, when for most of his time in office Republicans had power in Congress. I really would like to know as I have a son in Special Forces, planning to do his 20.


83 posted on 12/13/2006 1:57:22 AM PST by gleeaikin
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To: dakine
Only one reason for enlisting?

Apparently in your world.

That you johnkerry?

In the real world where people are hiring the young people going into the military are highly prized and would make much more money by going private.

They are bright, willing to work and ready to learn otherwise they never would have made it into the military in the first place. Oddly enough that is the exactly the same thing that employers are looking for.

84 posted on 12/13/2006 2:17:18 AM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Those who call their fellow citizens Sheeple are just ticked they were not chosen as Shepherds)
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To: kinghorse
How about guys and gals just want to defend their country. Is that so hard to imagine anymore? Wow.

This country is still worth defending, but with a third or more of it's population essentially communist and wishing for my defeat, I'd have a hard time being a soldier right now. Just MHO.

85 posted on 12/13/2006 3:14:34 AM PST by Hardastarboard
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To: dakine

I appreciate your early comment on the thread, even though it doesn't dovetail with the false patriotism of many here.

Young people join the military for as many reasons as there are people joining the military. However, I don't remember anyone - - be it a basic trainee, a fellow pilot, a fellow student in one of the service schools, anywhere - - ever saying "I'm in it to kill a commie for [Christ]." Had they done so, I believe most would have given them a wide berth.


86 posted on 12/13/2006 3:32:42 AM PST by leadpenny
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To: Lil'freeper

Ping


87 posted on 12/13/2006 3:46:39 AM PST by big'ol_freeper (It looks like one of those days when one nuke is just not enough-- Lt. Col. Mitchell, SG-1)
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To: kristinn
Steel Wolf, when the Associated Press shows you're full of it, it might be time to take a break:

Fair enough, let's see what you got. But before we go on, let's be clear that I'm criticizing the fine organization that paid for so many of my road trips and foreign holidays because I want it to succeed and do the right thing. I don't see that happening, hence my criticism.

Before shipping off to basic training, recruits must meet physical standards and those 40 and older are given additional medical screenings.

Why would they need additional medical screening, if they're just as fit as people in the teens and 20s? (That's a rhetorical question, of course.)

They must undergo the same training exercises as younger recruits.

I'm 5'10 and almost 200lbs. Any man or woman I work with has to be strong enough to drag or carry me off when I'm in 50lbs of battle rattle. My concern with older recruits is the same as my concern with working with women in a tactical environment.

"They have the college-aged mind and the high school mind," said Pfc. Caroll Martinez, 42, of Kansas City, Mo. "I'm so beyond that."

Having someone mature around a group of young adults can be gold. I'll readily admit that the one benefit of having older recruits is having more mature recruits. Maturity is one of those things you don't appreciate until you're surrounded by a lack of it.

Covington agrees -- especially after being called "Grandpa" by his military peers. But he had the last laugh, receiving the highest fitness score of his entire company in basic training.

The fitness scores are staggered by age and gender. If I did 40 pushups at age 18, I'd score a 57, which is three points shy of passing, whereas it would be a perfect score of 100 if I was 42. Stuff like that always makes me smile when I read things like..

"A bullet and a bayonet don't discriminate," Shwedo said. "As a result, our training program has to ensure that every soldier is going to be able to outmaneuver, outfight and win on today's battlefield."

The Army loves to talk like this, especially when talking about training women, but it doesn't really translate into the real world.

Age isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'll stop here and point out that well trained men in their late 30 and 40s make up the U.S. Special Forces. I've worked with and met a lot of them. With that crowd, it's not the young ones who spend all their time in the gym that are the most dangerous. The really formidable ones are the guys that look like they should be bagging groceries or teaching high school, not Green Berets. Many of them have forgotten more about fighting than most soldiers will ever know.

Still, those guys are career soldiers who have spent years becoming what they are, physically and mentally. Taking someone who's already set in his ways, physically and mentally, and starting him out from scratch that late in the game, isn't the same thing. I've worked with some guys who joined later in life, and they struggle harder or are more prone to permanent injuries.

The Army knows that. Once you get over 30, and then 40, they expect more regular physicals for you. The physical standards for tests lower. That's on the expectation that you've moved into a leadership role by then, anyway. What most people in the Army are doing at 40 is flying a desk and looking at retirement, except for the ones that are well conditioned to still be out in the rain and snow.

Taking in recruits at such an age helps our numbers, but it hurts our strength. That's my concern.

88 posted on 12/13/2006 5:28:29 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: dakine
Military comes from higher-income backgrounds because the opportunities out in the economy do not support the continuance of that lifestyle?

That might be true if your bleak (and incorrect) view of the economy were accurate. But the more important factor that refutes your theory is that every one of the young men and women volunteering in the past five years knows that they are most likely going to have to go to war for their country.

It is highly unlikely that any intelligent, educated, moderately wealthy young man or woman would give up their comfortable lifestyle (which they know they are doing) for any reason other than a desire to serve and a love of their country. They know that we are at war against terrorists, and they want to help fight them.

And they are also reinlisting in droves because they want to continue to serve, and they want to go BACK to Iraq.

So not only is your argument wrong based on the economic reality of the Bush Boom, but it is wrong based on the self sacrificing requirements of being in the military that all these recruits now know about.

It's not a matter of broad brushing anything. It's a matter of being factually accurate, and your hypothesis, based on a Viet Nam era draft mentality, is not.

89 posted on 12/13/2006 5:51:25 AM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: MNJohnnie
Let not kid ourselves, we are at war. It easy to demand perfect standards when you are not at war.

Are we at war or not? That statement doesn't make sense. Unless, of course, you're trying to stay that I don't know what I'm talking about because I'm not an OEF/OIF vet. In that case, you do make sense, but you're wrong.

Seems to me the people who scream loudest about "The American people need to realize we are at war and make sacrifices" should not also then turn around be the same people trash talking every single issue related to the war.

Seems to me that there's nothing wrong with asking the American people to realize we're at war and to make some sacrifices. Like, serving their country when they're at an age that it will be the most help.

I think it's the patriotic duty of young Americans to enlist and fight for their country, not sit back playing Xbox while single mothers and folks old enough to be their parents go to war instead.

You seem to think it's the patriotic duty of Americans to shut up and follow the leader. That's fine for a nation of cheerleaders, but a sad departure from what America should be.

90 posted on 12/13/2006 5:52:47 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: antiunion person

Well said! :)


91 posted on 12/13/2006 6:02:16 AM PST by Diana in Wisconsin (Save The Earth. It's The Only Planet With Chocolate.)
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To: gleeaikin
I don't want to pick a fight, but can you explain how Clinton hur our Military, when for most of his time in office Republicans had power in Congress.

Clinton took the extensive Bush Sr demobilization in the wake of the Soviet Union's demise even further, and brought our military down to levels too low for our global committments.

The Clinton trashing of our military used to be a common complaint around here. As the years go by, without any effort to raise the military back up to previous levels, you hear it a lot less. It's kind of hard to blame Clinton for a problem you've had over five years to fix yourself.

92 posted on 12/13/2006 6:07:28 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Steel Wolf
So other than yapping on the Internet, what are you actually doing to solve the problem, SW?

I see a lot of griping and moaning from you, and accusing more positive people of being 'cheerleaders,' but what do you think you're accomplishing here?

My son signed up before 9/11, and almost all his friends did AFTER 9/11. This generation is filled with patriotic kids who want to defend their country against evil, because they love America and want to keep us safe.

What is your point in belittling them, and continuing to dismiss what's really going on in the military?

I really want to know. What's made you so cynical and negative?

93 posted on 12/13/2006 6:13:27 AM PST by ohioWfan (President Bush - courageously and honorably protecting us in dangerous times, . Praise the Lord!)
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To: Steel Wolf

They've only taken in about 1400 new recruits in the new age bracket, so it's not like they've opened the floodgates to tired old geezers.


94 posted on 12/13/2006 6:13:36 AM PST by kristinn
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To: Candor7
Dissatisfaction with President Bush's handling of Iraq has climbed to an all-time high of 71 percent, according to the AP-Ipsos survey this month. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I guess that the new recruits for American Forces do not listen to or read the MSM propaganda.

Sure they do. They just know that it's important to win, despite the mismanagement. Bungled or not, it's important to not leave Iraq as a problem that will come bite us in the ass later. The troops want to win now rather than come back later.

95 posted on 12/13/2006 6:17:33 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: dakine

No


96 posted on 12/13/2006 6:22:18 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: MNJohnnie
Let not kid ourselves, we are at war. It easy to demand perfect standards when you are not at war. Seems to me the people who scream loudest about "The American people need to realize we are at war and make sacrifices" should not also then turn around be the same people trash talking every single issue related to the war.

That's a valid argument.

Just a quick comment on the article, I know the current enlisted force has an extreme sense of pride and devotion to the mission that hasn't been seen in the more recent past deployments. For example, I was deployed to Haiti for election security. To be honest, I did not want to be there, and to be even more frank, I didn't care if Haiti collapsed. We are not seeing that in Iraq. These men and women are volunteering for multiple tours. There is an extreme sense of engagement.

97 posted on 12/13/2006 6:24:47 AM PST by corlorde (New Hampshire)
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To: kristinn
They've only taken in about 1400 new recruits in the new age bracket, so it's not like they've opened the floodgates to tired old geezers.

Certainly, the military is only going to seriously appeal to a small number of people in that age group. My concern is that lowering standards does two negative things.

First, it masks problems, rather than deal with them. The numbers look fine, so everyone assumes that things are going as well now as they were before. In reality, we have recruitment and retention problems that are being papered over with solutions like this.

Second, you can take a really good football team, sub out a random player for a girl, and do well. The team adapts and overcomes. You can sub out another player for an old man, and still do well. The issue is that at some point, you'll keep lowering and lowering the standards until it does hurt.

While we're not there yet, we should always be striving to raise the bar. Lowering the bar, and then patting ourselves on the back for doing so well, is an unwise trend.

98 posted on 12/13/2006 6:28:05 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Steel Wolf
You seem to think it's the patriotic duty of Americans to shut up and follow the leader. That's fine for a nation of cheerleaders, but a sad departure from what America should be.

Thanks for summing that up in an articulate way. A way I have forever failed to do. In my mind, the men and women who are in uniform deserve the best plan, the best thinkers, the best stregy we can possible offer. I know how extremely important I felt, when I knew the civilians stateside were actively engaged and interested in the mission...even if it was a mundane deployment. When I perceive things to be going, "not right" I feel we are doing a disservice, if people don't speak up.

if any of that makes sense, it probably doesn't.

99 posted on 12/13/2006 6:30:32 AM PST by corlorde (New Hampshire)
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To: ohioWfan
I see a lot of griping and moaning from you, and accusing more positive people of being 'cheerleaders,' but what do you think you're accomplishing here?

Let's just say I have some experience in fishing the truth out of a sea of optimism, pessimism, and bull$%^#. It's rarely a job that will win you friends, but what it accomplishes should be clear.

My son signed up before 9/11, and almost all his friends did AFTER 9/11. This generation is filled with patriotic kids who want to defend their country against evil, because they love America and want to keep us safe.

I'm sure that the first sentence is true, and you're clearly quite proud of your son and his friends, with good reason. They are doing more than their share.

The second sentence, on the other hand, may be a bit of an overstatement. We wouldn't be discussing this topic at all, if this generation was pulling it's weight, since we're calling on the generation before us for help.

What is your point in belittling them, and continuing to dismiss what's really going on in the military? I really want to know. What's made you so cynical and negative?

You don't really love someone if you don't tell 'em like it is. The Army and I may have parted ways, but I'd never want to see them fail, or to pursue losing strategies. So, my words of harsh truth are for a service and a mission that personally cost me in, as they say, blood, toil, tears, and sweat. I want them to win more than you can imagine, and I'd rather they hear harsh words from me than taste real failure.

An organization full of smart, motivated people like your son, that insists on running itself into the ground, will have a hard time recruiting and retaining. Eventually, it will see those smart, motivated people leave to become contractors, and have to lower hiring standards to replace them. That's what I fear, and that's why I'm complaining.

If I come across as cynical and negative, it's because unrealistic people tend to be more positive than negative. When I deal with unrealistically negative people, I get accused of sugarcoating things. You push people out of their comfort zones, and they'll accuse you of anything.

100 posted on 12/13/2006 6:54:52 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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