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Rick Warren critics over OBAMA told to leave the church...
TownHall ^ | 12.14.2006 | Kevin McCullough

Posted on 12/14/2006 11:48:10 AM PST by jodiluvshoes

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To: Apple Blossom

ping


151 posted on 12/15/2006 8:44:33 AM PST by bmwcyle (McCain nomination assures a Hillary win)
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To: jodiluvshoes; shaggy eel; My2Cents; jumpdrive; Calvert Cliffs Cafe; RnMomof7; Cyrano; ...
GO FIGURE!
152 posted on 12/15/2006 9:44:30 AM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Quix; xzins
If this is an unhealthy pattern as it appears to be, then it is very serious, indeed.

This is what we've been trying to tell you, lo, these many months.

153 posted on 12/15/2006 9:45:36 AM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: CyberAnt
I can tell you those who whine the most in public are most usually those who won't visit the pastor privately, because he might tell them their wrong .. so they go public.

Or, they have met privately, he won't do anything, and they go public, because that's what Matt 18 says to do.

154 posted on 12/15/2006 9:46:27 AM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Terriergal

I set the standard of proof against a bro--especially a bro who has done so much in behalf of The Kingdom--rather high.

And when it seems largely to come from sour grapes because of differences over doctrine which The Bible has some ambiguity over . . . that doesn't cut it; for me.

On the other hand, I have a fiercely strong bias in behalf of leaders listening to the lowest person in their ranks. Whenever they are not willing to do that, their pride is in the way and that's a route to all manner of evil.

Moses listened to anyone as long as he could. Shoot--God was ready to meet with anyone at the tent of meeting but the people were afraid.

As to RW, I still mostly leave him to God. I'm not willing to throw rocks over doctrinal differences The Bible is not precise over nor over gossip.


155 posted on 12/15/2006 9:50:39 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: jodiluvshoes

That church is not devoted to Christ as much as it is devoted to Rich Warren.


156 posted on 12/15/2006 9:51:52 AM PST by Petronski (I just love that woman.)
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To: Terriergal

In my near 60 years, I've seen Mat 18 applied Biblically maybe 2-3 times, if that.

Carping and whining and throwing rocks from a safe distance in public is not Mat 18 confronting and not Mat 18 dialogue.

I admit that many leaders are loathe to cooperate with Mat 18. God will deal with them.

Rick Joyner rightly says, I think, that without a cloak of humility in these last days, the enemy will pick the individual off far earlier than was fitting.


157 posted on 12/15/2006 9:52:42 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: My2Cents

Been down that road.

You are better off for having left.


158 posted on 12/15/2006 9:56:26 AM PST by sauropod ("Come have some pie with me.")
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To: TommyDale; Veto!; Wuli
The delphi technique is a very natural part of human nature, just identified and consciously put into practice by corporations and other groups to create consensus (based on whatever the leaders have for an agenda, not necessarily on truth!)

A good article here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a37b321093ce6.htm

Most people don't even realize it's happening, it's become such a natural part of our society. You learn nothing but how to manipulate via the delphi process too.

http://www.newswithviews.com/PaulProctor/proctor8.htm

Facilitators of Diaprax always minimize the importance of scriptural knowledge (facts) and didactic teaching (lectures) in order to successfully seduce their subjects into group participation with un-offensive human interaction, superficial edutainment, non-threatening worshiptainment and dialectic ‘team-building’ techniques. Diaprax doesn’t teach anyone anything except how to THINK, FEEL and EXPERIENCE what everyone else is thinking, feeling and experiencing. The only thing learned by Diaprax is the process itself. What Diaprax is REALLY all about is unlearning your core values—letting go of anything that keeps you from moving toward the new paradigm of global harmony. It’s about turning one’s ears from the Ancient of Days to the latest noise on the street for spiritual guidance and direction.

Here's another good article:

The Delphi Technique — What Is It?

159 posted on 12/15/2006 9:59:35 AM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Quix
I see no evidence they were anything but an impartial jurist.

Is that a royal or a judicial "they"?

Of course you wouldn't see his partiality, because you share his anti-Catholicism bias.

A judge complaining that there isn't enough Catholic-smearing on a forum doesn't sound like a very impartial judge to me.

I feel sorry for any Catholics who passed through his courtroom.

160 posted on 12/15/2006 10:01:23 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: 2banana
By their fruits you shall know them...

Thought that was Episcopalians.

161 posted on 12/15/2006 10:05:32 AM PST by N. Theknow ((Kennedys - Can't drive, can't fly, can't ski, can't skipper a boat - But they know what's best.))
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To: threeleftsmakearight
"And Warren is surprised by the reaction of his congregates? "


He is a dual person.
162 posted on 12/15/2006 10:11:15 AM PST by SeeSalt
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To: wideawake

I was referring to the post I was responding to. You could be right if you were referring to other data. But I wasn't in his court room. Were you?

I don't believe I have an anti-Roman believer bias.

I have some strong biases against some Romanist doctrines and practices.


163 posted on 12/15/2006 10:15:14 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: SeeSalt

I didn't realize so many folks hereon functioned as RW's psychologist, confessor, counselor, brain/heart scanners.


164 posted on 12/15/2006 10:16:08 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: WestSylvanian
"I believe Warren's Purpose Driven Life also argues that congregants who don't agree with the introduction of pop music into church services should be thrown out, also. Apparently, he believes churches should be run like McDonalds--find out what the masses want and give it to them."

Actually, that was the chapter about "Music" in Warren's 1992 book, "The Purpose Driven Church". To be fair, he didn't suggest throwing them out, just giving them a "Take it or leave it" attitude, forcing them to leave. Otherwise, you are spot on with your assessment.

165 posted on 12/15/2006 10:16:11 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: sine_nomine
"The Church Growth pastors are all like this and Warren has been their god for many years."

"Many ministers think they will be successful if they are little Stalins because of people like Warren and Schuller."

The tell-tale signs is when you don't even know who is on the Board. Then you may find out that THERE IS NO BOARD! They won't give you a copy of the bylaws. They want full control, no answering to anyone, not even God.

166 posted on 12/15/2006 10:19:40 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: Quix
Of course you do. If you didn't, you would call us what we are: Roman Catholics.

By using a fake, concocted terminology ("Roman believer", "Romanist") you deliberately insult us personally.

167 posted on 12/15/2006 10:22:42 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: Quix
"I didn't realize so many folks hereon functioned as RW's psychologist, confessor, counselor, brain/heart scanners."

Actually, Rick Warren "borrowed" many of his charts and psychological bunk from Carl Jung, a protoge' of Sigmund Freud. While Warren defenders viciously deny it, there are charts in Carl Jung's writings that are identical to those used by Rick Warren, pointing toward what some people consider actual outright plagiarism.

168 posted on 12/15/2006 10:26:43 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: wideawake
Presumably Warren's employees are doing to these congregants what they told the WSJ they normally do - call the pastor of whatever church these excommunicants wind up joining and advise him that they are troublemakers who should not be welcomed.

That's unchristian and sick -- sounds more like something a cult would do ... what's the matter with these people?

169 posted on 12/15/2006 10:27:07 AM PST by GOPJ (Male homosexuality-worse for your health than sugar, transfats, obesity, and SUV's together.)
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To: wideawake

No. Not so. Not true.

I merely refuse to let you exclusively, monopolistically OWN the generic term "catholilc."

I strongly believe that all who have accepted Christ as their Personal Savior and who seek to walk in His Spirit as well as they can manage with His help

. . . all such belong to The Universal Catholic Church made up of all believers of all denominations and probably plenty who've never darkened a denominational door.

It's a matter of doctrine, to me, not personal insult.

If I were to be insulting deliberately, you would definitely know it.

"Romanist" is merely a term that works for me and others given my doctrinal perspective--which I must be true to or take another, different one! LOL.

BTW, I consider it a lie to label my terms "fake" etc. They were carefully arrived at in an effort to find a term true to my doctrine which communicated and was not inherently insulting.

I suppose we could talk about Mary's fake after-Christ virginity but that would probably best be on another forum.


170 posted on 12/15/2006 10:31:52 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: TommyDale

Jung was not a 100% clueless demonized satanic idiot. Some of his metaphors were useful.


171 posted on 12/15/2006 10:33:11 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: Quix

The fact that Warren used his charts in his book without proper attribution speaks volumes.


172 posted on 12/15/2006 10:34:04 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: TommyDale

I don't know. Sloppy at least. I'd have certainly cited. It's the Christian thing to do.

I suspect, however, that a lot of Jung's stuff is well out of copyright.


173 posted on 12/15/2006 10:36:18 AM PST by Quix (LET GOD ARISE AND HIS ENEMIES BE SCATTERED. LET ISRAEL CALL ON GOD AS THEIRS! & ISLAM FLUSH ITSELF)
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To: mariabush
Because the PDL movement was not limited to SBC churches, informing against members was not limited to SBC churches. As a matter of fact, a class used to train pastors and leaders for the PDL program (see step 6 here: http://www.churchtransitions.com/about_cti.htm ) deals with the very subject of this thread.

A WSJ article last spring addressed this training class and how people who moved to a new church over a disagreement about the PDL program were treated because of it.
174 posted on 12/15/2006 10:37:28 AM PST by Binghamton_native
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To: TommyDale
Warren is going the way of all of the est of these "Self Help" preachers that haven't got the conviction to preach the unabashed gospel. Too bad most of the flock he's fleeced hasn't got the guts to stand up to him like these few dissenters.
175 posted on 12/15/2006 10:39:31 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: Binghamton_native

How about this link, right from Warren's own Pastors.com site:

http://www.pastors.com/article.asp?ArtID=8232


176 posted on 12/15/2006 10:39:34 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: GOPJ; Quix
As Quix pointed out, it's not really appropriate to guess at Warren's psychology.

It's more important to look at what he concretely does.

What he does seems to be relatively simple: marketing an idea which he calls "Purpose" or, more precisely, "the 5 purposes" which he says are delineated in Scripture.

There is the best-selling book, but there is also a best-selling training program that trains local pastors to become evangelists of the "Purpose" suite of goods and services.

A pastor who is well-trained in "Purpose" will be an effective salesman for "Purpose" to his congregation.

The congregation, properly instructed in "Purpose" will then remit congregation resources to Warren's "Purpose"-related charities.

It's simple, practical and self-funding once it is up and running.

All marketers like positive advertising, and deplore negative advertising.

One of the most effective forms of advertising is word of mouth advertising.

If someone who has not agreed with the "Purpose" training leaves their congregation and heads to a congregation that has not received "purpose" training, what you have is an individual who will be a strong source of negative advertising to a large group of potential "Purpose" customers.

Warren has pointed out time and again that "Purpose" deliberately utilizes tried-and-true marketing methods. The best way, marketing-wise, to stop negative advertising against your product is to engage in preemptive negative advertising - if one can sow a negative opinion of a product's detractor before he even opens his mouth to speak negatively about your product, then you've gone a long way to winning the marketing battle.

Warren is a pretty good marketer and he knows the tactics of the discipline.

177 posted on 12/15/2006 10:40:48 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: P8riot

Those that don't stand up to the false doctrinal teachings are weak.


178 posted on 12/15/2006 10:41:06 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: Sue Perkick

Hello, cellular sister!

I agree the members will be better off...but it breaks my heart for them. They've invested themselves emotionally and likely, financially in the church only to be told they're not important and to leave if they don't like how things are.

My heart breaks because it's happened to me twice in the past two years. Once with my homeschool organization and once with my own church of ten years. In both situations, they changed and pushed me aside like so much rubbish.

It's working out ok, I'm better off I know. But it was a hard journey there for a while and I just feel bad for these members.


179 posted on 12/15/2006 10:42:11 AM PST by 2Jedismom (http://kimsbug.blogspot.com/)
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To: TommyDale
Those that don't stand up to the false doctrinal teachings are weak.

Amen! I've been kicked out of several churches for doing just that.

180 posted on 12/15/2006 10:43:23 AM PST by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: CyberAnt; My2Cents
Yes it is .. but having been a member of a church for 20 years, I can tell you those who whine the most in public are most usually those who won't visit the pastor privately, because he might tell them their wrong .. so they go public.

Not certain that Matthew 18:15-18 is an applicable passage in the case of somebody publically committing sin or preaching abhorrant doctrine, or advocating abhorrant conduct. The passage appears to deal with offenses committed privately, or semi-privately.

Paul confronted public error through public rebuke.

181 posted on 12/15/2006 10:48:31 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord

Good point.


182 posted on 12/15/2006 10:51:43 AM PST by My2Cents (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. -- George Orwell)
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To: TommyDale
The tell-tale signs is when you don't even know who is on the Board. Then you may find out that THERE IS NO BOARD! They won't give you a copy of the bylaws. They want full control, no answering to anyone, not even God.

...Which is why i am part of a denominational structure where the congregations and ministers are held accountable for their actions and teachings.

i've seen both cases where congregations were subjected to abusive ministers, and ministers subjected to abusive congregations...my old congregation was such. Our denomination was able to correct the problems.

Accountability is a good thing.

183 posted on 12/15/2006 10:54:44 AM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: ark_girl
Not every large church is bad.

And I would agree with that. 2 out of the few hundred mega churches in this country actually act like a chistian churches. The remaining ones are not for profit corporations with plus signs on the front of the coporate palace.

But, I would go around making blanket assumptions about all large

If a pastor of a church is preaching the Gospel, accountability in one's walk, becoming free from the bondage of sin and living a Holy life, they will not be popular enough to get big.

Churches only become mega churches by preaching little c Christ and never suggesting that the church is itself is filled with sinners that need to repent, fall on their knees before the Cross, and beg for God's grace through Jesus.

That would be "too churchy and icky" for most people to sit through these days. It also mught sound too judgemental for the "seeker".

Nothing but ear tickling pop psychology. Just like Paul and Peter commented on 1,950 years ago.

184 posted on 12/15/2006 10:57:46 AM PST by L,TOWM (Liberals, The Other White Meat [This is some nasty...])
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To: ark_girl

I heard it as "If you find a perfect church and join it, it won't be perfect anymore."


185 posted on 12/15/2006 10:59:40 AM PST by ichabod1 (After the attacks of 9/11, profiling Muslims is more like profiling the Klan.)
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To: CyberAnt
those who won't visit the pastor privately

Out of a 20,000 member congregation, how many people ever get to talk to the most high Warren privately anymore? With his "apologetics for Moslem Dictatorship" junkets, book signings, TV appearances, etc., how much actual face to face ministry has lord Rick done in the few years, outside the paid "ministry" staff?

He probably does'nt even know the names of 90% of his "flock". Maybe more accurate to say "can't" visit the pastor privately.

186 posted on 12/15/2006 11:03:57 AM PST by L,TOWM (Liberals, The Other White Meat [This is some nasty...])
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To: ichabod1

How about borrowing from Groucho Marx, "I wouldn't join a church that would have me as a member!"


187 posted on 12/15/2006 11:06:07 AM PST by TommyDale (Iran President Ahmadinejad is shorter than Tom Daschle!)
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To: 2Jedismom

As does mine. I'm saddened to see what the church has become. It's almost unrecognizable these days. I'm troubled to see so many following men rather than Jesus. It should not be the pastor's way but Christ's. We have so many pastors who are "stars" now I guess it was inevitable.


188 posted on 12/15/2006 11:06:55 AM PST by Sue Perkick (Just a water spider on the pond of life.)
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To: Quix
all such belong to The Universal Catholic Church made up of all believers of all denominations and probably plenty who've never darkened a denominational door

Even if you believe that, then there should be no problem in calling Roman Catholics, Roman Catholics. Unless you believe that Roman Catholics of "all believers of all denominations" are the only ones who are disqualified from calling themselves Catholics.

"Romanist" is merely a term that works for me and others given my doctrinal perspective

And "n*****" is merely a term for black people that works for certain white people given their demographic and moral perspective.

I already get it that you feel comfortable using bigoted epithets.

I'm just cluing you in that people who are slandered by such epithets don't share your comfort.

I suppose we could talk about Mary's fake after-Christ virginity

That would be a second thread-hijacking following your judge pal's first act of hijacking.

But you merely underscore my point that you are being deliberately offensive just to get a rise out of people.

And worse, you are dragging the Messiah's mother into your little fit of pique.

Disedifying in the extreme.

189 posted on 12/15/2006 11:10:24 AM PST by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: L,TOWM

This apparently is becoming common even in some smaller churches. At a church I used to attend, you now have to go through the pastor's associate who evaluates your situation & determines if it is significant enough to "take up pastor's time".


190 posted on 12/15/2006 11:25:03 AM PST by Sue Perkick (Just a water spider on the pond of life.)
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To: KingArthur305

"you too"? Do you mean this surprises you?

For me it's "Oh No, Chuck Colson, you haven't fallen for Rick Warren's cotton-candy gospel and I'm-gonna-save-the-world program too have you???"


191 posted on 12/15/2006 1:25:25 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: MikeA
So Rich Warren has drunk the media Koolaid about this phony Obama huh

He's drunk more than just THAT kool-aid. I've always said Jim Wallis (www.sojo.net) and Rick Warren are theological brothers. They both think the church should fix the world. (e.g. not Jesus)

192 posted on 12/15/2006 1:32:26 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Ladysmith
Counting down to a Providential smackdown ...5...4...3...

Well, the countdown began a couple decades ago, actually.

193 posted on 12/15/2006 1:33:35 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: No.6

LOL


194 posted on 12/15/2006 1:33:54 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: My2Cents
I've been through a few church "splits" and most were caused by super authoritarian pastors. When you here members saying "well, Pastor says -blank-..." it's time to start worrying.
195 posted on 12/15/2006 1:37:15 PM PST by Uriah_lost (We've got enough youth, how about a "fountain of smart")
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To: Arizona Carolyn
Wonder how much Warren knows or understands about Islam and it's teachings.

He "knows more than" Joseph Farah (/sarcasm) because he belongs to the Council on Foreign Relations and Oxford Analytica, so he says to Farah:

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53030

''In fact,'' Warren added, ''as a member of the Council on Foreign Relations and Oxford Analytica, I might know as much about the Middle East as you.''

196 posted on 12/15/2006 1:38:33 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Gamecock
YBPDLN Ping List

Am I on that list? If not please put me on. Can't remember if I asked you.

197 posted on 12/15/2006 1:40:06 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: Terriergal

I trust him less and less. You gave me one more reason.


198 posted on 12/15/2006 1:41:27 PM PST by Arizona Carolyn
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To: ark_girl

I'm glad you have so much optimism about the church in America. I have been having a really hard time finding one, large or small, that preaches the truth anymore, instead of 'self help' messages.

IN GENERAL large churches have tended to gather crowds *especially those that seem to grow overnight* by catering to the unbeliever or immature believers, softening the hard teachings of the Bible or leaving them out entirely.


199 posted on 12/15/2006 1:42:24 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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To: My2Cents
The pastor hated it, and told me he considered a prayer meeting a waste of time. I eventually concluded that attending his church was a waste of time.

To be honest, prayer meetings in the absence of good solid Biblical teaching is kind of a waste. Our church did it too. It ends up being a place where people pray *at* you (e.g. we all get together to feel like we're unified and really care about such and such but we're really nowhere near being on the same page, because no one teaches anything clearly here!).

Many of us noticed the subtle kind of preaching at you that is done when someone would pray out loud in a group setting, e.g. "Oh Lord, help us to have Unity, help us to put aside our selfishness and our differences and all work together" etc. in an attempt to guilt the ones with legit concerns into being quiet.

200 posted on 12/15/2006 1:45:40 PM PST by Terriergal (All your church are belong to us! --- The Purpose Driven Church)
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