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Brutally Honest (Apocalypto)
The Weekly Standard ^ | 12/15/06 | Sonny Bunch

Posted on 12/15/2006 7:04:47 AM PST by Valin

Brutally Honest The multicultural set doesn't like Mel Gibson's "Apocalypto" because of its depiction of Mayan brutality.

MEL GIBSON'S Apocalypto is one of the few films that can rightly be described as a journey. The viewer is snatched from the confines (and comforts) of a Hollywood movie and thrown deep into the jungles of Central America. The film itself is a visual masterpiece; shot entirely in a Mayan dialect, Gibson flexes his visual muscles to show rather than tell.

Billed as a historical drama, Apocalypto is actually part revenge flick and part chase flick. After being brutally taken from his idyllic home (where his beloved father's throat was slit by the cruelest of his captors), the hero, Jaguar Paw, narrowly escapes having his heart torn from his chest as part of a human sacrifice. He then leads his tormentors on a harrowing chase through the jungle, utilizing his knowledge of the familiar terrain that surrounds his village to pick off his enemies one by one.

The plot itself is almost secondary, and little more than an excuse for Gibson to show off his phenomenal film making talents. In addition to the stunning jungle scenes, Gibson treats us to a view of what life in a vast Mayan city may have been like at the height of its culture. Immense pyramids rise out of the foliage; prisoners are sold as slaves and sacrificed in incredibly brutal ways; those not sacrificed are used for human target practice. If you can handle gore (and really, the movie is no more violent--and in some ways, far less so--than, say, Braveheart, which took home 5 Oscars, including Best Picture), do yourself a favor and see this innovative, unique movie.

AS INTERESTING as the film itself has been the reaction to it by film critics and historians alike. Those who praise the movie almost uniformly mention, if not condemn, Gibson's infamous anti-Semitic outburst (in the New York Times, A.O. Scott wrote that "say what you will about him--about his problem with booze or his problem with Jews--he is a serious filmmaker").

Other critics have, curiously, dismissed the film because it doesn't inform us about some of the accomplishments of the Mayans. "It teaches us nothing about Mayan civilization, religion, or cultural innovations (Calendars? Hieroglyphic writing? Some of the largest pyramids on Earth?)," Dana Stevens wrote in Slate. "Rather, Gibson's fascination with the Mayans seems to spring entirely from the fact (or fantasy) that they were exotic badasses who knew how to whomp the hell out of one another, old-school."

This is a strange criticism. If you were interested in boning up on calendars, hieroglyphics, and pyramids you could simply watch a middle-school film strip. And who complained that in Gladiator Ridley Scott showed epic battle scenes and vicious gladiatorial combat instead of teaching us how the aqueducts were built?

AND THEN there have been the multi-culturist complaints. Ignacio Ochoa, the director of the Nahual Foundation, says that "Gibson replays, in glorious big budget Technicolor, an offensive and racist notion that Maya people were brutal to one another long before the arrival of Europeans." Julia Guernsey, an assistant professor in the department of art and art history at the University of Texas told a reporter after viewing the film, "I hate it. I despise it. I think it's despicable. It's offensive to Maya people. It's offensive to those of us who try to teach cultural sensitivity and alternative world views that might not match our own 21st century Western ones but are nonetheless valid."

Newsweek reports that "although a few Mayan murals do illustrate the capture and even torture of prisoners, none depicts decapitation" as a mural in a trailer for the film does. "That is wrong. It's just plain wrong," the magazine quotes Harvard professor William Fash as saying.

Karl Taube, a professor of anthropology at UC Riverside, complained to the Washington Post about the portrayal of slaves building the Mayan pyramids. "We have no evidence of large numbers of slaves," he told the paper.

Even the mere arrival, at the end of the film, of Spanish explorers has been lambasted as culturally insensitive. Here's Guernsey, again, providing a questionable interpretation of the film's final minutes: "And the ending with the arrival of the Spanish (conquistadors) underscored the film's message that this culture is doomed because of its own brutality. The implied message is that it's Christianity that saves these brutal savages."

But none of these complaints holds up particularly well under scrutiny. After all, while it may not mesh well with their post-conquest victimology, the Mayans did partake of bloody human sacrifice. Consider this description of a human sacrifice from the sixth edition of University of Pennsylvania professor Robert Sharer's definitive The Ancient Maya:

The intended victim was stripped, painted blue (the sacrificial color), and adorned with a special peaked headdress, then led to the place of sacrifice, usually either the temple courtyard or the summit of a temple platform. After the evil spirits were expelled, the altar, usually a convex stone that curved the victim's breast upward, was smeared with the sacred blue paint. The four chaakob, also painted blue, grasped the victim by the arms and legs and stretched him on his back over the altar. The Nacom then plunged the sacrificial flint knife into the victim's ribs just below the left breast, pulled out the still-beating heart, and handed it to the chilan, or officiating priest.

That exact scene, almost word for word, takes place in Apocalypto.

After the Spanish conquest, the Mayans adapted their brutal methods of pleasing the gods to coexist with Christianity. Ambivalent Conquests: Maya and Spaniard in Yucatan, 1517-1570 contains the following description from a contemporary source of a post-invasion sacrifice:

The one called Ah Chable they crucified and they nailed him to a great cross made for the purpose, and they put him on the cross alive and nailed his hands with two nails and tied his feet . . . with a thin rope. And those who nailed and crucified the said boy were the ah-kines who are now dead, which was done with consent of all those who were there. And after [he was] crucified they raised the cross on high and the said boy was crying out, and so they held it on high, and then they lowered it, [and] put on the cross, they took out his heart.

As for whether or not there have been any murals found portraying decapitation, as Prof. Fash complains, heads were certainly cut off in ceremonial fashion by the Mayans. Again, The Ancient Maya: "The sacrifice of captive kings, while uncommon, seems to have called for a special ritual decapitation . . . The decapitation of a captured ruler may have been performed as the climax of a ritual ball game, as a commemoration of the Hero Twins' defeat of the lords of the underworld in the Maya creation myth."

The protestation against Mayan slavery, is also off the mark: The Ancient Maya repeatedly refers to the purchasing of slaves. The first European contact with the Maya resulted, ironically, in the Spaniards being enslaved. After a shipwreck, Spanish

survivors landed on the east coast of Yucatan, where they were seized by a Maya lord, who sacrificed Valdivia and four companions and gave their bodies to his people for a feast. Geronimo de Aguilar, Gonzalo de Guerrero, and five others were spared for the moment. . . . Aguilar and his companions escaped and fled to the country of another lord, an enemy of the first chieftain. The second lord enslaved the Spaniards, and soon all of them except Aguilar and Guerrero died.

And it should be remembered that when the Spanish arrived in force, they had little problem recruiting allies as some Mayans fought with the Spanish against their own Mayan enemies. Matthew Restall's Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest reports that

what has so often been ignored or forgotten is the fact that Spaniards tended also to be outnumbered by their own native allies . . . In time, Mayas from the Calkini region and other parts of Yucatan would accompany Spaniards into unconquered regions of the peninsula as porters, warriors, and auxiliaries of various kinds. Companies of archers were under permanent commission in the Maya towns of Tekax and Oxkutzcab, regularly called upon to man or assist in raids into the unconquered regions south of the colony of Yucatan. As late as the 1690s Mayas from over a dozen Yucatec towns--organized into companies under their own officers and armed with muskets, axes, machetes, and bows and arrows--fought other Mayas in support of Spanish Conquest endeavors in the Petén region that is now northern Guatemala.

WHICH IS NOT TO SAY that Gibson's film is an entirely accurate portrayal of life in a Mayan village. As they say in the business, for the sake of narrative, certain facts have been altered. The conflation of showing massive temples and then depicting the arrival of the Spanish at the end of the film is almost certainly anachronistic. Though Apocalypto is purposefully vague about its time frame, the appearance of Spanish galleons and conquistadors at the end of the film (as well as the sight of a little girl who might be suffering from small pox) suggests the action takes place in the early- or mid-16th century. But according to Sharer, "by 900 . . . monumental construction--temples, palaces, ball courts . . . [had] ceased at most sites, as did associated features such as elaborate royal tombs and the carved stone and modeled stucco work used to adorn buildings."

Almost any historical drama will contain such problems. That being said, it is specious for professional historians and grievance groups alike to argue that Apocalypto is a wonton desecration of the memories of the Mayan people. While it may be an inconvenient fact that the Mayans were skilled at the art of human cruelty, it is, nevertheless, a fact.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: apocalypto; bigaspoilershere; melgibson
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1 posted on 12/15/2006 7:04:48 AM PST by Valin
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To: Valin

I want to see this movie.


2 posted on 12/15/2006 7:08:16 AM PST by contemplator (Capitalism gets no Rock Concerts)
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To: contemplator

Yeah, I want to see this one too.


3 posted on 12/15/2006 7:10:34 AM PST by Ueriah
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To: contemplator

I'm going to see the movie this weekend after hearing favorable comments from people that have seen it already. They stated that it is powerful and graphic, but no more than "Saving Pvt. Ryan" or "Band of Brothers". The Standard report is well written and articulate. Very rare for news media these days.


4 posted on 12/15/2006 7:13:38 AM PST by Stoigo
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To: Valin
I recently went to the pyramids at (sp?) Chitchenitza. They were impressive.

More impressive were the number of natives living in absolute squalor in the area. It's not often that you see a culture regress.

5 posted on 12/15/2006 7:14:30 AM PST by wbill
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To: Valin

The same conclusions can be reached about many (if not all) pre-Columbian American civilizations. The Aztecs, Incas and other native american cultures were brutal and violent. Of course the same is true of many cultures in our world. The noble savage myth is just that.


6 posted on 12/15/2006 7:14:49 AM PST by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: Valin
...Apocalypto is a wonton desecration...

I've torn the hearts from a few wonton.

7 posted on 12/15/2006 7:16:01 AM PST by decimon
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To: Valin

Pretty decent jungle movie. I liked it.

(Comment given in the spirit of Mark Twain who, when asked to review a book, wrote "This is a good book. People who like good books will like this book.")


8 posted on 12/15/2006 7:20:05 AM PST by NaughtiusMaximus (Our troops are smart. It's our politicians who are stupid.)
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To: Valin
(and really, the movie is no more violent--and in some ways, far less so--than, say, Braveheart, which took home 5 Oscars, including Best Picture)

I can't wait to see this.

This one film will undo decades worth of the school disinformation campaign regarding the Mayas and Aztecs.

9 posted on 12/15/2006 7:21:34 AM PST by Aquinasfan (When you find "Sola Scriptura" in the Bible, let me know)
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To: decimon

MURDERER!


10 posted on 12/15/2006 7:34:55 AM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: Valin
Ignacio Ochoa, the director of the Nahual Foundation, says that "Gibson replays, in glorious big budget Technicolor, an offensive and racist notion that Maya people were brutal to one another long before the arrival of Europeans."

Ochoa knows better - but he also knows that plenty of white liberals are credulous enough to buy this line of BS.

11 posted on 12/15/2006 7:35:26 AM PST by Mr. Jeeves ("When the government is invasive, the people are wanting." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: Aquinasfan

So much for the "noble savage". I mean there's a reason they were/are called savages.


12 posted on 12/15/2006 7:38:36 AM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: Valin
Julia Guernsey, an assistant professor in the department of art and art history at the University of Texas told a reporter after viewing the film, "I hate it. I despise it. I think it's despicable. It's offensive to Maya people. It's offensive to those of us who try to teach cultural sensitivity and alternative world views that might not match our own 21st century Western ones but are nonetheless valid."

If "alternative world views that might not match our own...are nonetheless valid" then why does she consider an alternative world view of Mel Gibson despicable and offensive?

Ritual decapitation, human sacrifice, cannibalism, and slavery are "valid", but a Mel Gibson MOVIE is "despicable". Go figure.

Cordially

13 posted on 12/15/2006 7:40:59 AM PST by Diamond
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To: Mr. Jeeves

Gee, Ya think it's because they were, brutal to each other?
That whole cutting the hearts out thing was just a mininterpration, what it was, was an early experiment in open heart surgery.


14 posted on 12/15/2006 7:42:19 AM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: Valin
"...offensive to those of us who try to teach cultural sensitivity and alternative world views that might not match our own 21st century Western ones but are nonetheless valid."

What is wrong with the old-fashioned idea about teaching facts? Facts, after all are the only stable, immutable building blocks of knowledge...right?
15 posted on 12/15/2006 7:50:24 AM PST by SMARTY ("Stay together, pay the soldiers and forget everything else." Lucius Septimus Severus)
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To: Valin
Good morning.
"Julia Guernsey, an assistant professor in the department of art and art history at the University of Texas"

Isn't a Guernsey a cow?

Michael Frazier
16 posted on 12/15/2006 7:52:11 AM PST by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Valin

Newsweek reports that "although a few Mayan murals do illustrate the capture and even torture of prisoners, none depicts decapitation" as a mural in a trailer for the film does."
Temple paintings at Bonampak depicting torture and slaughter aside, anyone who has ever been to Chitzen Itza and seen the decorations in the ball court, in which a ball player is decapitated, knows that is completely wrong.

"I hate it. I despise it. I think it's despicable. It's offensive to Maya people. It's offensive to those of us who try to teach cultural sensitivity and alternative world views that might not match our own 21st century Western ones but are nonetheless valid."
Translation: this will make it harder for me to lie to my students about how horrible Westnern culture is and how sweet and innocent the pre-Colombian peoples were, views which are not based on any factual evidence whatsoever.


17 posted on 12/15/2006 7:54:37 AM PST by 3AngelaD (ic.)
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To: contemplator

It's quite gruesome, but absolutely brilliant.


18 posted on 12/15/2006 8:02:08 AM PST by karnage
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To: Ueriah

>>Yeah, I want to see this one too.<<

Not me - its a rare foreign language movie I want to see but you sure can see the crtics projecting their own bias -like this quote from one of the PC crowd.


>>"And the ending with the arrival of the Spanish (conquistadors) underscored the film's message that this culture is doomed because of its own brutality. The implied message is that it's Christianity that saves these brutal savages."<<

The Spanish conquest was brutal - we know that. That doesn't mean its wrong for Gibson to examine aspects the civilization that was there before that are often overlooked.


19 posted on 12/15/2006 8:05:12 AM PST by gondramB (It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark.)
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To: Valin

The brutality of American Indians toward each other and outsiders continues to this day. Just watch the documentary, "Beyond the Gates of Splendor" and the movie based on the same events, "The End of the Spear".

One of the primary objections to "Apocalypto" put forth by film critics is that it is overly violent. This from the same crowd that nominates "The Departed" for a Golden Globe and who always fawn over anything by Scorcese, Peckinpah and Tarantino -- the gorier, the better for them.

I won't see this movie as I'm particularly squeamish about gore - shouldn't have gone to "The Departed", but son wanted to see it. I averted my gaze for half the film.

I hate to admit it, but I still haven't watched "Saving Private Ryan".


20 posted on 12/15/2006 8:10:48 AM PST by randita
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To: NaughtiusMaximus

I thought it was "people who like this sort of thing will find that this is the sort of thing they like."


21 posted on 12/15/2006 8:11:31 AM PST by -YYZ-
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To: contemplator

I think I'm going to have to drag myself to the theater for this one.

From what I've read, women are going to it as well, it sounds like a good adult date movie.


22 posted on 12/15/2006 8:11:54 AM PST by ansel12 (America, love it ,or at least give up your home citizenship before accepting ours too.)
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To: contemplator

I thought it was good


23 posted on 12/15/2006 8:13:35 AM PST by woofie (For some people self hatred may be justified)
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To: Valin

This liberal multiculturism/policial correctness expressed by the academics in this article prove that what they teach in class is nothing but lies.


24 posted on 12/15/2006 8:20:19 AM PST by KC_Conspirator
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To: randita

Last year I bought myself "The Wild Bunch" (Sam Peckinpah) and by todays standards it's pretty tame. And NO, I would not recomend it to you, the last part is nothing but blood and gore.


25 posted on 12/15/2006 8:22:02 AM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: contemplator
"I want to see this movie."
Unfortunately, you'll also have to read this movie! I HATE movies with subtitles! If I wanna read, I'll stay home with a good book. So much has been invested in the cinematography, that it seems a shame to have to constantly detach yourself from the beauty of the film, to read the subtitles. I go to the movies to be immersed in the experience, and, to me, having to read subtitles because the dialog is gibberish, greatly detracts from the experience. Flame away!
26 posted on 12/15/2006 8:22:54 AM PST by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ("Don't touch that thing")
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To: contemplator

I liked it. I wouldn't call it a masterpiece but it is very good. A couple of lame scenes/plot lines kept it from reaching the next level for me. But definately worth seeing for the visuals and for the commentary on decadent societies.


27 posted on 12/15/2006 8:23:17 AM PST by Cyclopean Squid (Euphorion Falls)
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To: Dr. Bogus Pachysandra

Honestly, after a few minute I didn't even notice I was reading subtitles. That's the same for me with other good subtitled films, such as Amelie.


28 posted on 12/15/2006 8:26:23 AM PST by Cyclopean Squid (Euphorion Falls)
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To: Valin
MURDERER!

Guess I won't talk about the shrimp rolls. :-)

29 posted on 12/15/2006 8:27:50 AM PST by decimon
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To: 3AngelaD
"...this will make it harder for me to lie to my students about how horrible Westnern culture is and how sweet and innocent the pre-Colombian peoples were,..."

I do believe that is precisely why Mel made this movie.
30 posted on 12/15/2006 8:37:08 AM PST by ROLF of the HILL COUNTRY ( ISLAMA DELENDA EST!)
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To: Valin

I thought the Aztecs were encountered by the Spaniards, not the Mayans. I had been taught that the Mayans civilization had been mostly extinct and a newer, more violent version had taken over in the form of the Aztecs.


31 posted on 12/15/2006 9:08:08 AM PST by GOP_Party_Animal
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To: Valin

I really enjoyed this movie. The cinematography, acting, and story were great. As for people who don't want to face the truth about their past, get over it, we all have dark pasts that we aren't proud of.


32 posted on 12/15/2006 9:25:45 AM PST by Mazda3Fan
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To: Valin

My take on this great movie: It's "The Naked Runner" (Cornel Wild) and "Rambo First Blood" mixed, only better.


33 posted on 12/15/2006 9:37:25 AM PST by fish hawk (.)
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To: Valin
Good analysis, but there should be a spoiler warning as it gives away the first and second act plot points - which means it discloses what happens well into the second half of the story, even if it does not give away the ending entirely.

Christian viewers should be advised against taking any children. I heard Michael Medved's review and was expecting lots of violence which is not offensive to me, but I would not expose children to. However, he failed to mention the nudity - men, women and children. Though none is intended to be erotic, some did occur in a sexual context as well.

The family in front of me in the theater endure a lot of this before deciding to leave.

Overall it is a well told parable about the decline of a great civilization, but only for adult viewers.
34 posted on 12/15/2006 9:46:08 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Diamond; Valin
Julia Guernsey, an assistant professor in the department of art and art history at the University of Texas told a reporter after viewing the film, "I hate it. I despise it. I think it's despicable. It's offensive to Maya people. It's offensive to those of us who try to teach cultural sensitivity and alternative world views that might not match our own 21st century Western ones but are nonetheless valid."

This is what drives me crazy about the prejudices of contemprary academia. On the one hand the science departments are run by naturalistic materialists who believe that the eighteenth century enlightenment was the greatest thing to ever happen in human history. On the other we have the humanities departments run by "third world" fundamentalists who believe that indigenous religion is beyond critique by European rationalist standards. Yet instead of attacking each other these forces "tag team" against chr*stianity.

It really is like pro rasslin', you know. The "heels" never feud with each other.

35 posted on 12/15/2006 9:55:35 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (VeYa`aqov 'ahav 'et-Yosef mikkol-banayv ki-ven-zequnim hu' lo; ve`asah lo ketonet-passim.)
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To: wbill

It may not be regression. The squalor and poverty may be an improvement. Empire building on slavery and human sacrifice is not necessarily high culture.


36 posted on 12/15/2006 10:04:31 AM PST by 2ndClassCitizen
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To: Valin
"That being said, it is specious for professional historians and grievance groups alike to argue that Apocalypto is a wonton desecration of the memories of the Mayan people."

Main Entry: won·ton
Pronunciation: 'wän-"tän
Function: noun
Etymology: Chinese (Guangdong) wàhn-tAn
: filled pockets of noodle dough served boiled in soup or fried

37 posted on 12/15/2006 2:37:05 PM PST by ViLaLuz (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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To: Valin

I feel sorry for all the little girls who have been named "Maya" in the past several years. Isn't there some outraged group that can protest this movie on their behalf?

< / s a r c a s m >


38 posted on 12/15/2006 2:40:04 PM PST by Palladin ("Open a new window; open a new door; travel a new highway.")
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To: brazzaville
Isn't a Guernsey a cow?

yeah, but cows have more sense...

39 posted on 12/15/2006 2:49:38 PM PST by chilepepper (The map is not the territory -- Alfred Korzybski)
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To: wbill
It's not often that you see a culture regress.

I've just returned from Napoli, Itally. I'm afraid cultural regression is so uncommon. In the case of Napoli, I don't think it's recoverd from WWII.

40 posted on 12/15/2006 3:17:17 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Whatever inchoherent, contradicting, clusters of fact that can be assembled to make communism sound good are what they will teach/preach


41 posted on 12/15/2006 3:55:13 PM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Valin

I talked to someone from Guatemala who saw this film. They are very familiar with Mayan culture and they loved the movie. The gore didn't bother them. I think I want to see this movie. "Braveheart" was my favorite movie.


42 posted on 12/15/2006 7:11:30 PM PST by AUsome Joy
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Of the two, I'll take the "naturalistic materialists". At least you can talk facts to them, 1+1 still equals 2 to them. Whereas with those in the humanities departments, they'd accuse you of being judgmental and dogmatic.


43 posted on 12/15/2006 9:29:46 PM PST by Valin (History takes time. It is not an instant thing.)
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To: Valin

Nothing cheers me more than the sound of Leftists whining.

Wonder why Gibson didn't avoid the anachronism by making the movie about the Aztecs who were at the height of their civilization when the Spanish arrived.


44 posted on 12/15/2006 9:41:19 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: Valin

And the patient kept slipping off the table and falling hundreds of feet sans heart.


45 posted on 12/15/2006 9:43:10 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: randita
One of the primary objections to "Apocalypto" put forth by film critics is that it is overly violent.

Meanwhile the critics like movies like SAW I,II&III, Black Christmas (WTF??) and other lovely movies about maniacs slicing, dicing and killing even more wantonly than a Mayan thoracic ripper priest hopped up on chocolate cocaine sauce.

46 posted on 12/15/2006 9:57:23 PM PST by Centurion2000 (If the Romans had nukes, Carthage would still be glowing.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
the sound of Leftists whining.

Modern leftists think every film should be a propaganda film. They love paying for propaganda to shore up their shaky beliefs, to vent their envy, and exercise their vanity.

Old movies were made for their entertainment value. The change to pushing leftism seemed to really take off in the 1980s. Maybe it was a response to the Ronald Reagan years. Sitting through movies just isn't as entertaining anymore.

47 posted on 12/15/2006 10:00:34 PM PST by Reeses
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To: karnage; NaughtiusMaximus

Can either one of you give me a basic outline of the plot? I don't get the story and the point of the movie.


48 posted on 12/15/2006 10:04:50 PM PST by Vision ("As a man thinks...so is he." Proverbs 23:7)
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To: Vision

In Mayan Mexico, inhabitants of a peaceful jungle village are attacked and enslaved by warlike city dwellers. The hero manages to hide his very pregnant wife in a dry well before he himself is captured. The city dwellers, their culture in crisis, offer their captives as gruesome human sacrifices to the gods they feel have abandoned them. The hero manages to escape, and is pursued.

The film features stunning imagery, imaginative production design, striking actors, and exciting action. There are also fascinating themes to consider in this violent but gripping and daringly original thriller.


49 posted on 12/16/2006 12:40:31 AM PST by karnage
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To: brazzaville
Good morning. "Julia Guernsey, an assistant professor in the department of art and art history at the University of Texas"

Isn't a Guernsey a cow?



Yes

50 posted on 12/16/2006 1:07:05 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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