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Minnesota court rules BB gun is a firearm
St. Paul Pioneer Press ^ | SHANNON PRATHER

Posted on 12/15/2006 11:50:17 PM PST by neverdem

A convicted felon barred from carrying a firearm broke the law when he started toting a BB gun, the Minnesota Court of Appeals has ruled.

John Fleming Jr. couldn't legally carry a gun because of two felony assault convictions, so he packed a BB gun instead.

Ramsey County prosecutors decided Fleming was splitting hairs and charged him with unlawful possession of a firearm.

Fleming won when a Ramsey County District judge threw out the charge, ruling the statute doesn't apply to BB guns. But the appeals court ruled prosecutors could again take aim at the two-time felon.

The appellate court reinstated the charge against Fleming, finding that a firearm is "any gun from which a shot or a projectile is discharged by means of explosive, gas or compressed air."

Fleming is accused of carrying a black metal BB gun that discharges a pellet by means of a CO2 cartridge.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Minnesota
KEYWORDS: 2stupid4words; banglist; bbguns; firearm; stupidjudges
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Two felony assault convictions and the question is whether a BB gun is a firearm. I don't see any fire, just a potential weapon. This might get interesting.

Type of rifle that killed girl ID'd by police But there should be no excuse for premeditated muder.

1 posted on 12/15/2006 11:50:20 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

If a BB gun is a firearm under the law, that has far-reaching consequences beyond just this case. The courts should think long and hard about that, since it's totally bogus and unfair to have "firearm" mean different things in different situations.


2 posted on 12/15/2006 11:54:38 PM PST by sourcery
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To: neverdem

"You'll put yer eye out, and go to jail, too, kid..."


3 posted on 12/15/2006 11:56:57 PM PST by WestVirginiaRebel (Common sense will do to liberalism what the atomic bomb did to Nagasaki-Rush Limbaugh)
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To: neverdem

Well they can't say it's a firearm that would mean it has to be treated and sold like a real gun.


4 posted on 12/15/2006 11:57:06 PM PST by miliantnutcase ("If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." -ichabod1)
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To: neverdem
Pure nonsense. There is no fire, so there is no firearm.

Slingshots will be next.

5 posted on 12/15/2006 11:59:18 PM PST by Manic_Episode (Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps...)
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To: neverdem

Would a bow and arrow be considered a "firearm"? A crossbow?


6 posted on 12/16/2006 12:01:16 AM PST by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now courtesy of Islam.)
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To: neverdem
"Ramsey County prosecutors decided Fleming was splitting hairs and charged him with unlawful possession of a firearm. ...

"The appellate court reinstated the charge against Fleming, finding that a firearm is "any gun from which a shot or a projectile is discharged by means of explosive, gas or compressed air."

Tha Appelate court has no grounds in the law to do this. I'm sure the MN legislaturre doesn't classify bb guns as a firearm and neither do the feds. stinkin' liberals!

7 posted on 12/16/2006 12:04:45 AM PST by spunkets
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To: neverdem
Taken to its logical conclusion, any solid object - a rock - can be considered a firearm.

Trouble is, where is the "fire" in the BB-gun firearm?

8 posted on 12/16/2006 12:14:08 AM PST by Lexinom
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To: Manic_Episode

They'll can have my pea shooter when they pry it from my cold, dead lips.


9 posted on 12/16/2006 12:21:39 AM PST by Jeff Chandler (Barack Hussein Obama)
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To: neverdem
The appellate court reinstated the charge against Fleming, finding that a firearm is "any gun from which a shot or a projectile is discharged by means of explosive, gas or compressed air."

spitballs!

10 posted on 12/16/2006 12:22:30 AM PST by Rightwing Conspiratr1
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To: Manic_Episode
Slingshots will be next.

And rope.


11 posted on 12/16/2006 1:11:26 AM PST by Cobra64 (Why is the War on Terror being managed by the DEFENSE Department?)
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To: Jeff Chandler

LOL


12 posted on 12/16/2006 1:13:59 AM PST by RichRepublican (Some days you're the windshield--some days you're the bug.)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
I guess as a child I and my friends were an armed militia and engaged in gun battles, and we just thought we were playing with our BB-guns. Our firecrackers are probably also now considered bombs

"discharged by means of explosive, gas or compressed air."... By this definition my A$$ could be a firearm!

If we let them take away our BB-guns they'll come for our knives next, and then we'll be stuck eating our steak with nothing but spoons and forks!
13 posted on 12/16/2006 1:24:48 AM PST by ME-262 (The Democrat party is slowly reduced by Abortion, AIDS, Imprisonment, and China's one child policy.)
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To: neverdem

PUT OUT AN APB ON THIS BB GUN WIELDING THUG!!!!
14 posted on 12/16/2006 1:43:52 AM PST by kb2614 (Hell hath no fury than a bureaucrat scorned)
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To: Rightwing Conspiratr1
The appellate court reinstated the charge against Fleming, finding that a firearm is "any gun from which a shot or a projectile is discharged by means of explosive, gas or compressed air."

spitballs!

Exactly! Spitballs are projectiles discharged (explosively) by compressed air. According tho this wacky judge, such things that have nothing to do with fire are "firearms."

Continuing this illogical definition of "firearms," hairspray, other household sprays, fire extinguishers, yogurt at high altitude, pressurized soft drink cans, and living animals all discharge projectiles by means of compressed air/gas. Would this judge categorize all these as "firearms?" Maybe he needs a dictionary.

15 posted on 12/16/2006 1:44:40 AM PST by heleny
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To: heleny
Maybe he needs a dictionary.

You are right.

16 posted on 12/16/2006 2:12:26 AM PST by KarinG1 (Opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of sane people.)
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To: kb2614
Who Knew the Kid was a right wing second amendment believing extremist.

Who reminded you more of a liberal; the bully's little toady, the kid who stuck himself to the flagpole, or the kid who liked the tin man?
17 posted on 12/16/2006 2:14:25 AM PST by ME-262 (The Democrat party is slowly reduced by Abortion, AIDS, Imprisonment, and China's one child policy.)
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To: ME-262
"Who Knew the Kid was a right wing second amendment believing extremist."

I KNEW that I always liked that kid!

"Who reminded you more of a liberal; the bully's little toady, the kid who stuck himself to the flagpole, or the kid who liked the tin man?"

The Union Stevedores that delivered the dad's "major award"! :-)

LLS
18 posted on 12/16/2006 3:19:59 AM PST by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: kb2614

19 posted on 12/16/2006 3:34:07 AM PST by rawcatslyentist (When true genius appears, know him by this sign: all the dunces are in a confederacy against him.)
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To: Cobra64

Don't laugh; right now in the enlightened U.K. they're in the process of banning swords and knives with points.

Got Ginsu? Turn them all in, mate.


20 posted on 12/16/2006 3:38:19 AM PST by elcid1970
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To: neverdem

What FIRE is there in a BB gun?
Some libs are nuts - kicking kids out of school for drawing pictures of a gun.


21 posted on 12/16/2006 3:40:55 AM PST by Leftism is Mentally Deranged (liberalism = brain cell deficiency)
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To: rawcatslyentist
Nice tag-line!
I've been there. ... and not as part of the confederacy.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -George Bernard Shaw 1856-1950
22 posted on 12/16/2006 3:54:03 AM PST by ME-262 (The Democrat party is slowly reduced by Abortion, AIDS, Imprisonment, and China's one child policy.)
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To: neverdem

Residents of New Jersey can buy bb guns through a designated local gun store after acquiring an Airgun Permit.
Cite from New Jersey law: "A 'firearm' means any handgun, rifle, shotgun, air gun, gas gun, machine gun, or 'any gun'."


23 posted on 12/16/2006 4:09:24 AM PST by mirkwood (Gun control isn't about guns. It's about control.)
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To: Manic_Episode

Here in NY, slingshots with wrist braces are illegal. Of course, it is NY.


24 posted on 12/16/2006 4:10:13 AM PST by GnL
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To: sourcery
The courts should think long and hard about that, since it's totally bogus and unfair to have "firearm" mean different things in different situations.

Actually it is totally valid and fair...if you are the judge.

25 posted on 12/16/2006 4:11:53 AM PST by GnL
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To: neverdem

Would a squirt gun fall under the judge's definition? Or do I have to be a lawyer to make that connection?


26 posted on 12/16/2006 4:14:13 AM PST by Bernard ("Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for." Will Rogers)
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To: Leftism is Mentally Deranged; Joe Brower
Some libs are nuts - kicking kids out of school for drawing pictures of a gun.

Please, for the love of God, tell me you're kidding.

RKBA ping to Joe.
27 posted on 12/16/2006 4:16:28 AM PST by proud_yank (Socialism - An Answer In Search Of A Question For Over 100 Years)
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To: neverdem

If (Big IF) the article is right, the court ruled properly, based on the definition provided by an idiot legislature.
We are usually the first to say that courts should follow the law not make it. It looks like this time they did; eh!


28 posted on 12/16/2006 4:17:18 AM PST by Steamburg (If we don't want our nation bad enough to protect it, it won't be ours long.)
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To: neverdem
But there should be no excuse for premeditated muder.

Really? How long you been married?

Just kidding, honey. (in case my wife sees this)

29 posted on 12/16/2006 4:19:24 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: sourcery
The courts should think long and hard about that, since it's totally bogus and unfair to have "firearm" mean different things in different situations.

Oh, I think that the courts have thought long and hard about this. Their conclusion is that the more "stuff" they can fit under the umbrella of 'firearm', the more stuff they can ban when given the chance.

There's plenty of liberal judges that prefer to circumvent the constitution in favor of being more like Europe. And removing all potential weapons from the hands of the subjects (er... people) is decidedly European these days.

30 posted on 12/16/2006 4:20:33 AM PST by meyer (Bring back the Contract with America and you'll bring back the Republican majority.)
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To: ME-262

31 posted on 12/16/2006 4:22:40 AM PST by metesky ("Brethren, leave us go amongst them." Rev. Capt. Samuel Johnston Clayton - Ward Bond- The Searchers)
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To: metesky
Looks dangerous!
Too much like a knife!
32 posted on 12/16/2006 4:43:12 AM PST by ME-262 (The Democrat party is slowly reduced by Abortion, AIDS, Imprisonment, and China's one child policy.)
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To: metesky

Spork!

Pure Genius!!! Love it!


33 posted on 12/16/2006 4:45:45 AM PST by stevie_d_64 (Houston Area Texans (I've always been hated))
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To: neverdem

What part of FIRE is hard to comprehend?


34 posted on 12/16/2006 5:20:46 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: neverdem

Now if it had been a CAP pistol; then FRY his a$$!

(Lots of FIRE in one of THEM babies!!!)


35 posted on 12/16/2006 5:21:45 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: sourcery
The courts should think long and hard about that, since it's totally bogus and unfair to have "firearm" mean different things in different situations.

Oh YEAH!!??

Tell that to the Mad Hatter!!

36 posted on 12/16/2006 5:24:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Manic_Episode; garyhope
" . . . a firearm is "any gun from which a shot or a projectile is discharged by means of explosive, gas or compressed air."

It depends on how they defined it in the state laws. New Jersey also defines an air rifle as a firearm. A couple of other states classify air guns as firearms. I can't remember which ones did it. Safe guesses: Massachusetts, Wisconsin, Illinois.

New Jersey also illegalized sling shots, but it's a separate law.

37 posted on 12/16/2006 5:25:30 AM PST by sig226 (See my profile for the democrat culture of corruption list.)
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To: proud_yank
Please, for the love of God, tell me you're kidding.

Sorry Mate!

http://net127.com/2001/04/01/fourth-grader-suspended-for-gun-drawing/

38 posted on 12/16/2006 5:27:18 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: neverdem

No surprise here. There are a lot of unfortunate souls in MN. who just don't get it. It must be the water...ie, lesbian fire chief of a major city, they elect an Islamist to Congress, the disruptive Immans on the plane out of Minneapolis and on and on. Wake up Minny!


39 posted on 12/16/2006 5:29:00 AM PST by KenmcG414
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To: neverdem

I hear baseballs are awfully dangerous too.


40 posted on 12/16/2006 5:30:08 AM PST by Porterville (Fight without rules. Fight until only one side stands.)
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To: mirkwood
Not correct. New Jersey law requires anyone who purchases an air rifle to present a Firearms Purchaser Identification Card, the same one they need to buy a 12 gauge shotgun. An air pistol requires a Permit to Purchase a Handgun. There is no 'air gun' permit, and they are effectively destroying the shooting sports that way.

As a further example of the stupidity of that state, a person can buy all the crossbows they want, which are lethal weapons, with no permit. But if you try to buy that Red Ryder without an FPIC, boy are you gonna get it.

41 posted on 12/16/2006 5:31:59 AM PST by sig226 (See my profile for the democrat culture of corruption list.)
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To: neverdem

I suspect this is really VERY BAD reporting.

The probation convict was carrying an object as a weapon.

It would be no different if he used his automobile as a weapon.


42 posted on 12/16/2006 5:33:09 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: sig226
Perhaps it's time to invent and market a mini catapult.

It could be made from a modified mousetrap.

At least those are still legal....for now.

43 posted on 12/16/2006 5:41:42 AM PST by Manic_Episode (Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps...)
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To: neverdem

Reading this thread elsewhere the topic of 'caliber' was introduced with a differentiation firearm/not at 0.18 caliber. I remember with pleasure my .17 caliber Remington that shot a 0.173 inch bullet at 5050 fps. A BB is .177 caliber.

As I read the article I suspected that somewhere a .17 HMR pistol would not 'legally' be a firearm.

Remember, "the law is an ass."


44 posted on 12/16/2006 5:46:25 AM PST by dhuffman@awod.com (The conspiracy of ignorance masquerades as common sense.)
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To: neverdem

we cannot constitutionally deter any individual's right to bear arms... shall not be infringed means just that...

if one has demonstrated through felonious behaviour, he cannot play nice, twice, then we should keep him separated from society for longer periods of his lifetime.

teeman


45 posted on 12/16/2006 5:48:38 AM PST by teeman8r
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To: neverdem
The logical progression would be to execute all felons, but that would be logical and also punish criminals not the collective; plus it would violate the socialist taboo on assuming responsibility for one's actions.
46 posted on 12/16/2006 5:50:29 AM PST by MrBambaLaMamba (Buy 'Allah' brand urinal cakes - If you can't kill the enemy at least you can piss on their god)
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To: miliantnutcase
Well they can't say it's a firearm that would mean it has to be treated and sold like a real gun.

And therein lies the problem. They can tax it, regulate it, tax the BB's, you name it.

This country has gone to hell in a hand basket.

47 posted on 12/16/2006 5:54:13 AM PST by unixfox (The 13th Amendment Abolished Slavery, The 16th Amendment Reinstated It !)
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To: neverdem
This jagoff has two, count 'em, two felony assault convictions -- what's he doing carrying around anything that even resembles a handgun?

And some on this thread are insisting that technically this really isn't a firearm, so this two-time ex-felon loser should be allowed to carry it around so he has it available to stick in someone's face during a rape or robbery.

Yeah, yeah, I know. If he does that, robertpaulsen, then we'll charge him at that time. Uh-huh. Just a little to late for the person who was raped or robbed. Whatever happened to "common sense"?

48 posted on 12/16/2006 5:57:45 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: heleny

We used to make notebook paper "spitballs" with the clear plastic barrel of a Bic pen, and an "L" shaped angle of coat hanger wire.


49 posted on 12/16/2006 6:04:24 AM PST by Freedom4US (u)
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To: robertpaulsen; harpseal; TexasCowboy; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
robertpaulsen,

What you state makes sense on its surface, and such is the manner in which our fundamental freedoms have slowly been legislated out of existence.

If the law wants to keep this miscreant from possessing anything that even faintly resembles a firearm, then it needs to rule appropriately. What we are seeing here is an overreaching and erroneous ruling that is simply another band-aid over a wound that refuses to heal. What is to keep this criminal from carving a handgun replica out of a peice of wood and painting it black? Would you be happy if that also was arbitrarily ruled a "firearm"?

What you are endorsing is some activist judge legislating from the bench, and in the process allowing criminals to dictate what "rights" are allowed the law-abiding. In doing so, you are advocating the punishment of millions of law-abiding citizens, in order to preempt the actions of a few criminals.

This guy needs to be put on a very short leash, but calling an airgun a "firearm" is not the way to accomplish that end.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

50 posted on 12/16/2006 6:07:21 AM PST by Joe Brower (The Constitution defines Conservatism. *NRA*)
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