Skip to comments.U.S.: DISMAY AT ARREST OF ETHNIC SERBS
Posted on 12/18/2006 10:58:24 AM PST by kronos77
click here to read article
"Do you know who else had ambitions to create "Lebensraum" for his people? Serbia planned and deliberately wanted to push people from their homeland to expand their national territory."
Oh the irony. Your hero, izetbegovic, threw his lot in with the SS in WW2. His recruits appalled the German officer corps of the Handzar SS division.
Keep on with the posting though, I could do with a laugh.
Care to explain why Abdic, the most popular muslim politician in Bosnia was allied with the Bosnian Serbs in Bihac?
Runs against your argument somewhat.
The desertions amongst the Bihac population to Abdic ( and hence the Bosnian Serbs ) were so great that your heroic Islamist Govt in Sarajevo were forced to directly fly in Mujahideen into the enclave to bolster Gov't lines.
Trust you to side with the Islamists against the Secular muslims.
But, do keep on posting, you're a hoot.
Still defending Dr Balls, Hoplite? Oh, that's funny. Please explain why is testimony was soooooo good.
"You're no different than the German today complaining that they were bombed in WWII"
Why this belitting of the crimes of the NAZIs in WW2?
The entire total of deaths in the Bosnian civil war was 100,000. From all sides, both civilian and military. This was a 4 way civil war.
Muslim against Croat
Croat against Serb
Serb against Muslim
Secular Muslim ( Abdic ) against Islamist( Izebegovic )
Yet you compare the crimes of the Bosnian Serbs with the NAZIs?
Is this belittling the crimes of the NAZIs by accident or design. I say this because your hero, Izetbegovic, was a WW2 war criminal, his "Muslim Youth" ( Young Muslim )movement was based on the Fascistic Muslim Brotherhood and provided the canon fodder for the Handzar Division. Many of his lifelong political colleagues actually donned the SS uniform AND he named his Praetorian Guard , "Handzar", in honour of same said SS Division.
Is that why you whitewash the crimes of the NAZIs?
" Kind of like the Holocaust denier, but as we know, you guys dont like any correlation to the Nazis or WWII."
Oh, the irony AGAIN. It's YOUR hero, Izetbegovic who denied the Holocaust.
He was kind of unusual in that he had VERY close links with the Saudi Arabian Wahhabis ( Holocaust deniers ) AND the Iranian Gov't ( Holocaust deniers too ) .
The Bosnian Serbs biggest ally ( along with Greece ) was the Israelis. So the IDF are Holocaust deniers too?
From getoffmylawn to Red6
"It would probably be best for yourself, and everyone else, if you just stayed away from the BALKANS threads"
That's uncalled for. We all need to laugh at SOMEONE.
That was what I meant...the war was misrepresented one way only, that being that the poor Muslims were the innocent, they were slaughtered by the "evil" Serbs. You were right, times like these makes us wish for people like Vlad Tepes, the true historical version, not the Hollywood concept. While they portray him as a murderer, a cruel and bloody man, the truth is that he was beloved by his people and his involvement in successful crusades against the Ottomans made him so popular with most of his neighbors, church bells would toll from Rhodes to Genoa upon hearing about his successful campaigns against the Ottomans. He was a huge threat to the sultan responsible for the destruction of Constantinople, the true spot of Christian development, a destruction which brought on another misrepresented concept of dark times in Europe which was nothing more than lack of findings of documents, books, art which were actually destroyed by the Muslims during their invasion of Constantinople. But I digress and this brings to mind a comment made by Christopher Walken after the 9/11 attacks and his unsatisfaction with our soft military action against the terrorists, comment in which he said that if this was Russia which suffered this type of attack, the second day Middle East would have been transformed into a parking lot. And I agree with him!
You need to catch up.....this is 100% correct, no discussion. In other words, once the pieces fall together the picture is clear. You either have not accomplished this or you are clearly one of the college Jr.s or Seniors that are going after your Political Science degree and are paid to take on the "forum" crowd. You are clearly out of your league or class and way behind the power curve for this subject. Reference the following........for only one example....
Clark placed career ahead of nation in Kosovo
The Dan Christman and Chuck Larson guest column published on Jan. 8 - "Gen. Clark's stand vs. Milosevic praiseworthy" - was remarkable as much for what it didn't say as for the distortions in what it did say.
In praising Clark's testimony against former Yugoslav dictator Slobodan Milosevic before the International Tribunal at The Hague, the authors failed to mention that Milosevic was not permitted to question Clark on what the general had written in his book, "Waging Modern War."
Also, the U.S. government demanded and received the right to edit videotapes and transcripts of the sessions before they were made public. Following his secret testimony at The Hague, Clark, in answer to an inquiry about what should happen to Saddam Hussein, hypocritically stated that it was important that Hussein's trial not be behind closed doors, so that the whole world could see justice done.
While the article had high praise in general terms for Clark's leadership of NATO forces in the Balkans, a critical look at his performance tells a different story.
In "Waging Modern War" Clark writes about his fury upon learning that Russian peacekeepers had entered the airport at Pristina, Kosovo, before British or American forces.
In an Aug. 3, 1999, article, "The guy who almost started World War III," The Guardian (UK) wrote: "No sooner are we told by Britain's top generals that the Russians played a crucial role in ending the West's war against Yugoslavia than we learn that if NATO's supreme commander, the American Gen. Wesley Clark, had had his way, British paratroopers would have stormed Pristina airport, threatening to unleash the most frightening crisis with Moscow since the end of the Cold War. 'I'm not going to start the third world war for you', Gen. Mike Jackson, commander of the international K-For peacekeeping force, is reported to have told Gen. Clark when he refused to accept an order to send assault troops to prevent Russian troops from taking over the airfield of Kosovo's provincial capital."
Gen. Clark's buddy in Kosovo was Hashim Thaci, the leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army which, according to the July 30, 2002, Belfast News Letter (N. Ireland), is engaged in sex slavery, prostitution, murder, kidnapping and drugs.
The Daily Telegraph reported on Feb. 19, 2002, that "European drug squad officers say Albanian and Kosovo Albanian dealers are ruthlessly trying to seize control of the European heroin market ..." This is the same Hashim "The Snake" Thaci with whom Clark was photographed in a triumphal handshake after NATO forces occupied Kosovo.
As for his ability as a military leader, Gen. Clark failed on two counts: the Kosovo air campaign and his plan for a ground campaign. While the questionable effectiveness of the air campaign is not solely his responsibility, his coverup of the results ("Kosovo Cover Up," Newsweek, May 15, 2000) are testimony to his dedication to power and career.
As for a ground war, which Gen. Clark admits that he favored, he insists that he could have conducted a successful ground war in Kosovo by sending supporting Apache helicopters through the mountain passes between Albania and Kosovo, a plan which was described to me by an Apache pilot as "hare-brained" and "suicidal."
There is no doubt that a ground war with the might of 19 NATO nations behind it eventually would have succeeded, but at what cost and why? To feed Gen. Clark's ego and ambition.
Before accepting the judgment of Adm. Larson and Lt. Gen. Christman, one should also consider the comments of two retired four-star generals, Gen.Tommy Franks, who led the campaign to capture Baghdad, and Gen. Hugh Shelton, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
An article in the Jan. 12 New Yorker quoted statements they made shortly after Clark announced his candidacy. When asked if Clark would make a good president, Franks' short reply was, "Absolutely not." When asked the same question, Shelton replied that "... the reason he came out of [his NATO command in] Europe had to do with integrity and character issues ... Wes won't get my vote."
Such comments by retired four-star generals about another four-star are almost unprecedented. They should not be taken lightly.
If Gen. Clark had had his way in Kosovo, we might have gone to war with Russia, or at least resurrected vestiges of the Cold War, and we certainly would have had hundreds if not thousands of casualties in an ill-conceived ground war.
Clark's obsession with career and power is what we saw too often in senior leaders during the Vietnam War and hoped never to see again in those with positions of responsibility for the lives of our GIs and the security of our nation.
Col. George Jatras, USAF (Ret.), of Camp Hill, Pa., flew 230 F-4 combat missions in Vietnam, served for seven years with various NATO designated units, was the senior Air Force attaché to the Soviet Union ('79-'81) and the senior Air Force advisor to the Naval War College, where he also served as an instructor in the Strategy Department.
seems to run in the family......so,is he or she your sibling? Hmmmmmmmmm,
you are the one that started the personal attacks and disinformation distribution. I'm not writing this to you, as there is a 100% chance that you won't read these and certainly won't make any intelligent remarks pro but, mostly negative as you are in a state of denial or paid to be a ....well, you know, the big "Pro"....:) but, it's just these few articles and comments that still keep me sort of "hung up" you might say. :)) I write these not for you, but, fortunately you keep responding in order to allow the rest of us to sound off with the truth. So, keep up the good work, this is good exercise and publicity. lolol...
Go ahead for Balkan oil pipeline
Albania, Bulgaria and Macedonia have given the go ahead for the construction of a $1.2bn oil pipeline that will pass through the Balkan peninsula.
The project aims to allow alternative ports for the shipping of Russian and Caspian oil, that normally goes through the Bosphorus straits.
It aims to transport 750,000 daily barrels of oil.
The pipeline will be built by the US-registered Albanian Macedonian Bulgarian Oil Corporation (AMBO).
The pipeline will run for nearly 900 kilometres from the Bulgarian port of Burgas, over the Black Sea to the Albanian city of Vlore on the Adriatic coast, crossing Macedonia.
The project was first conceived in 1994 but has suffered delays due to uncertainties about whether there was sufficient demand.
By signing the agreement on Tuesday, the prime ministers of Bulgaria, Albania and Macedonia have overcome the problem.
"This is one of the most important infrastructure projects for regional, EU, and Euro-Atlantic integration for the western Balkans," said Albanian Prime Minister Fatos Nano.
According to AMBO president Edward Ferguson, work on the pipeline will begin in 2005 and it is expected to be ready in three or four years.
He added that the company had already raised about $900m from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) - a US development agency - the Eximbank and Credit Suisse First Boston, among others.
The project has also the support of the European Union.
Analysts have said that oil companies like ChevronTexaco, Exxon Mobil and British Petroleum would be happy to find alternative routes to the Bosphorus and Dardanelles Straits.
Story from BBC NEWS:
Published: 2004/12/28 16:19:23 GMT
© BBC MMVI
do I have to comment.....give me some time to catch my breath...I have to apologize for laughing so hard at such a sad comment, but, the irony of it all just got the best of me. The comparison or the comment, one just cannot comment on, due to the ignorance is.....just sad.
I have to say, in such a short paragraph you covered the entire subject manner way off the chart....thank you.
"Karpinski like some others in this forum is trying to clear her name be rewriting history. She failed and was fired. She was not malicious, just incompetent."
Sounds like a similar incident in regards to someone failing and fired for incompetancy....does Clark come to mind.....????
Your point about the Russians is proven by the Moscow theater incident, wherein the the Russian operatives simply put a bullet into the head of the unconscious female suicide bombers. After I saw the video of one of the American's beheadings, I recalled some history about Vlad. (I wish I knew as much as you do.) I concluded that his executions were an act of military strategy, not homocidal mania. I believe Vlad was vastly outnumbered by the Ottomans, and the only way to keep them at bay was to for him to show he could top their brutality.
:)) the Serb military made fools of Clarks follies....you should read about how they fooled them.
Serb discusses 1999 downing of stealth (story of non-Serb)
Well, this guy is not Serb, but Hungarian
Today guy is baker...
The facts of the death & destruction of Serb ethnic cleansing in support of their irredentist goals are well established. It is both factually incorrect and an insult to the United States of America for the Serbs to try and associate what they did in the 90s--in terms of either goals or methods--with what the United States is doing in our current war on terror.
From one military veteran to two others: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
It's too bad that the three in question....have supplied virtually red herrings, and un-substantiated assertions that are supported by what has been proven to be a well contrived effort to deceive the true American patriots, and not the card board types that obtained their rank on toliet paper. The true Patriots do not adhere to the MSM reports as proven by Peter Brocks, book, "Media Cleasing, Dirty Reporting"....The true American patriot was Major General Smedely Butler, who kept this nation from becoming a facist government.........
from another patriot apparently....
These three shrills, shills, or twrills are a menace and are either paid or very much mislead as to the truth. The true patriots WILL NOT allow this to continue without reporting the truth for every lie they tell to promote the travesty against our constitution. they are traitors and should never have donned the uniform.
Same was in Montenegro. On Cetinje, old capitol of Montenegro children were playing with cut Turkish heads. Turks Ottomans were shocked and disgussed by that fact and were pretty much intemmidated by Montenegrin (Serb) actions against them.
Also on a seal of my home city, given to us by Austrian Emperor in 19th century abowe city panorama is arm holding sabre with Turkish head in turban stuck on the tip of the sabre...
you see, it's not my country nor the government. There are however, signficant players and those that hold a high position that are controlled by the international bankers, the rest are in line for many different reasons. Most of them are actually misinformed by generations of propaganda. General Butler sums it up and he is just about as credible as one can get......the culprits span two continents that are linked together through the CFR and RIIA.
I see Red6 has just received the coup de grace, Free Republic style: praise from Mark.
As damning an indictment as it's possible to imagine.
Red6 , I suggest you sue.
And that first photo of the set is more than a little poignant. Isn't it of an ethnic ALBANIAN couple of kids, who were RETURNING to their village when it was hit by NATO planes on the Djakovica to Prizren road in April, 99 .
They were almost certainly zeroing in on co-ordinates given by KLA target spotters. It was a death sentence to return home: to work with the Serb authorities: ruins the myth of the Serbs forcing the ethnic Albs out.
So they, and many others on that convoy were slaughtered.
As I said, it's poignant, though no doubt poignancy will be lost on the Red6s of this world.
Some more snaps.
Red6, you're losing it.
You forgot to compare the Serbs with the Nazis. And where's the talk of Auschwitz , etc. gone ? Surely de rigueur for any Serbophobe on the internet.
Stay on the ball.
No, Mark, what is "an insult to the United States" is that an illegal alien named Florin Krasniqi-- a Kosovo Albanian-- can steal into the US from Mexico in the trunk of a car, get his citizenship and then be seen 10 years later USING US laws to smuggle weapons to KLA terrorists, and paying off high level US politicians to buy US foreign policy! (What's the Krasniqi quote from the Brooklyn Connection? "America is a great place! You give politicians money -- and they pay you back!") That is a slap in the face to America and real Americans!
And if all those here who disagree with you are "Serb Nationalists", then why would the Chief Rabbi of Kosovo, who was driven out of Kosovo by the Albanians, agree with them? He says that Albanians from Albania came in and threw him and the other non-Albanians out, driving them from their homes and the UN would not help him!
Get it straight, Red, the former Yugoslav Muslims (in Bosnia & Kosovo) are not "the Jews" in some modern day Holcaust story -- the Albanian Muslims drove out the actual Jews to make room for more Albanians!
And what is in it for the US to have ever gotten ourselves involved in this Balkan fiasco? Nothing! It has made us more enemies than friends, because besides intervention being a mistake period, we topped it off by intervening on the wrong side!
9-11 and the GWOT came at an opportune time.
Ever since then the Serb agenda has been pushing to make the conflict into the Balkans something that it never was. They want to rewrite history.
Serbia was the antagonist. They had the means and motive to wage a war. They were told to stop because they were destabilizing the entire region and creating chaos. They were warned and threatened. Eventually they were bombed into submission with an air campaign. Now you can attempt to spin this reality anyway you want, but those are the facts.
You forgot to compare the Serbs with the Nazis
While you attempt to mock this, 48 people are convicted of crimes that were the same sort of things Nazi war criminals were sentenced for. Your defense is always the same as well, deny deny deny.
You can create all the free Slobodan websites you want. The legal proceedings will continue and he will go down in flames, like 48 others so far. Because the evidence is there, and unlike here, where all you do is suck up bandwidth by repetitive screaming of irrelevant or bogus arguments, the facts speak for themselves.
What makes the Nazi regime what it was? They acted in a "deliberate" and "premeditated" fashion. The orders to commit these atrocities came from the top (leadership directed) and it was "systemic" of the regime in power at the time.
A bad Example: The anti war pundit in Iraq tried their hardest to connect Rumsfeld and even Bush to Abu Gharib. While complete nonsense, this attempt was to construct exactly the argument I'm making which in this case has been "Proven" correct. The leadership in Serbia directed much of what happened. The actions were systemic and widespread, it was premeditated and deliberate. Yes, it is very much so a rational argument to compare Nazi Germany with the actions of Serbia in the Balkans in the late 90s. Its the same type of scenario where a state engages in activity that is in flagrant violation of international law.
The comparison to Nazis truly is over used in the media and common language. Everyone wants to compare those they dont like to a Nazi. However, in case of Serbia in the late 90s, you have a state that fulfills all the tenants of what in essence made the Nazi regime what it was. The atrocities committed were not the actions of an individual taking it upon himself to do wrong. It was a deliberate state sanctioned premeditated and systematic behavior which Serbia engaged in reference the crimes committed, and this is very much like what the Nazis did, like it or not.
On a personal level, I have no love for the Muslim religion. I saw and lived with Arabs on numerous times and have no affinity for their culture. I agree that Islam is the root out of which most the worlds terrorism is borne. I think many who practice this religion sympathize with the Jihadist, even if they dont personally blow something up. I dont find very much admirable about this part of the world. Its a hot ugly, backward place with nasty women. Fluent in several languages myself, I find even the sound of Farsi/Arabic to be repugnant. French is eloquent, Farsi is guttural and from the throat. But what happened in the Balkans late 90s was simply wrong. The ones who are practicing revisionism are the ones who today, in a world of heightened Islamic threat want to just exploit this argument as another bullet on their laundry list of fake reasons for why the leadership in Serbia acted the way it did. Truth is, this war in the late 90s was a classical case of where a state wanted to expand its influence and power, increase its area and seize the land/property of others. In complete disregard of human life and suffering, this state went on a quest to seize as much territory as possible just like Germany did in its expansion. The Serbs had the tanks, the fighters, surface to air missiles, officers, and artillery. The Serbs were calling the shots. Just like WWII was Germanys war, the Balkan crisis was a product of Serbia. Just like many innocent Germans died in the crushing of this regime, in Serbia many innocent people died when an end was put on the state sponsored actions of that regime. Had NATO not bombed, Serbia no doubt would have just continued their conquest, and this had nothing to do with the protection of Serbs. Just like Germany actually claimed that Poland had attacked them, the Serbs today want to pretend that they were the victims. Today with the advent of the GWOT the new spin is that Serbia was fighting Islamic terrorists, gee, what heros. Its nice when the terrorists all congregate together and you can burry them in a mass grave isnt it? Your pick: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=mass+grave+bosnia&btnG=Search
I sure hope the good people of my country (America) realize what we are dealing with like you have. Some people here were horrified by Mel Gibson's movie "The Patriot" when he had to have his children help shoot the attacking Redcoats.
Who're the Redcoats, again?
And a Happy Festivus to you too!
Frank Costanza: Many Christmases ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way.
Cosmo Kramer: What happened to the doll?
Frank Costanza: It was destroyed. But out of that a new holiday was born a Festivus for the rest of us!
Cosmo Kramer: That must've been some kind of doll.
Frank Costanza: She was.
Many Serbian victims, camp survivors testify and give their full name in the court proceedings.
And Agim Ceku, who killed more Serbs than anyone, you attempt to seat as the Prime Minister of the stolen state of Kosovo.
Hell of a glass house you got there, Dhimmi.
marky mark, I see you think you can change propaganda into facts if you shout it loudly enough.
You are an excellent Dhimmi.
Your posts show that to be yet another falsehood.
What planet are you living on? Don't know how to break this to you Red -- but Milosevic is DEAD! He died last March! trial over. And you don't even know this fact, but you think that you understand Balkan politics? You are "in kindergarten" with regarding the Balkans and you are acting as though you have a "doctorate", lecturing us with rehashed Clintonite propaganda. It's ridiculous.
I am no Slobo fan. I think that Milosevic belonged in prison --a Serbian prison -- for what he did do, not what he didn't do. But the ICTY is a farce; it is "victor's justice" -- a political hoax. And because the ICTY had nothing on Milosevic and prosecuted him for what he didn't do, they made the SOB a martyr -- and that was the worst of all possible scenarios.
And there was no "opportune time for 9/11". The Balkans is and always has been "a political barometer" of Europe. It is where 3 of the world's major religions meet, and politically where East meets West. You can always bet that if there is "trouble in the Balkans", there is trouble in Europe (and the world), period. And that "trouble" is rarely ever of the making of those who live there -- it has always been a sign that either Germany or the Moslem world are in expansion mode. This time, it was both.
If it's any satisfaction to the Serbs, we are paying for it to this day.
Sorry about all that.
I know he's dead, I know about the conspiracy theories people like you concocted about how he was murdered. Do you read what I write?
---The point your side makes is that all comparisons between Nazi Germany and Serbia are wrong.
*** He was on trail. Look at what he was on trail for in the link I provided. What did he lead?
*** Now pick a Nazi war criminal. Look at what he was on trail for.
As to the free Slobodan web sites:
You know what the problem is with people that defend these acts? Their world view is not much unlike that of some Tutsi or Hutu. The views they express is what one expects from some ignorant gunman in a third world banana republic. A place where heathens and savages, people who are uneducated and uncultured, rule. Its nearly unimaginable that these people call themselves European.
If it hadn't been for Clinton bombing Serb civilians, Slobodan was heading for the Ceaucescu treatment from his own people.
But folks just like you knew better and now the Moslems have two new terror bases in Europe.
Nice shootin', Tex!
Just for summary, so that Im set right the next time I talk to someone about this issue.
1. The NATO intervention was about oil. (That was a good one. lol)
2. Serbia wanted to stop hostile actions but couldnt because they were stopping AQ operatives. In the cross roads of the Balkans its the Serbs that held back AQ all these years!
3. NATO targeted civilians but Serbia is a multiethnic society that wanted to increase their diversity by protecting Muslims in Bosnia. That's why the YPA declared the Eastern and Central parts of Bosnia "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina". The militias, and paramilitaries that swept through these areas were "gentlemen".
4. The kangaroo court in The Hague went on a witch hunt and the real crimes were committed by the Muslims, to include attacks on themselves. (Can you remember the rumors spread about how the Muslims shelled themselves at the market?)
5. The trails at the Hague prove that there was no systemic, deliberate, and premeditated genocide!
6. Most refugees that fled the Balkans were actually Serbs!
7. The Serbs were the ones trying to get to a peaceful resolution as fast as possible but it was NATO and that evil Clark that prevented this.
8. Milosevic was murdered, and all the UN, EU, NATO troops, international media, international tribunal investigations are *conspiring* about what they saw. There were no camps, there were no mass graves.
Now, I understand that when I tell people this I have to say that If you dont believe this youre crazy. If people doubt anything, just deny it, make counter accusations, and call them names.
I feel enlightened now.
["Now pick a Nazi war criminal. Look at what he was on trail for."]
Okay, I'll pick one. How about Heinrich Himmler?
Now, tell me what trail he was on and then pick his analagous counterpart in Serbia that was on the same trail as that monster?....How about Pol Pot?...oops how silly of me - wrong country that was Cambodia.
four counts of crimes against humanity (Article 5 deportation; murder; persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds; other inhumane acts)
crimes against humanity set forth in Count 4 of the Indictment, including a wide variety of crimes against persons and property.
crimes against humanity perpetrated during his administration of the occupied territories.
count 3 of the indictment and of crimes against humanity as set fort in count 4.
war crimes according to count 3 and in crimes against humanity under count 4.
indictment N° 3, as well as in crimes against humanity according to the act of indictment N° 4, in particular with respect to the cruel treatment inflicted on prisoners of war and civilians in the occupied territories.
crimes against humanity, set forth in Count 4 of the Indictment, in particular with respect to the atrocities committed in the concentration camps.
http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-watch/profile/db/facts/ernst_kaltenbrunner_103.html You can look at the rest.
If you look at the themes, go beyond the shear semantics, you realize that those sentenced in the Hague, did the same sort of things Nazi war criminals did.