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Posted on 12/18/2006 10:58:24 AM PST by kronos77

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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic
Karpinski like some others in this forum is trying to clear her name be rewriting history. She failed and was fired. She was not malicious, just incompetent.
101 posted on 12/19/2006 8:26:43 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

From Red6

"Do you know who else had ambitions to create "Lebensraum" for his people? Serbia planned and deliberately wanted to push people from their homeland to expand their national territory."

Oh the irony. Your hero, izetbegovic, threw his lot in with the SS in WW2. His recruits appalled the German officer corps of the Handzar SS division.

Keep on with the posting though, I could do with a laugh.

Care to explain why Abdic, the most popular muslim politician in Bosnia was allied with the Bosnian Serbs in Bihac?

Runs against your argument somewhat.

The desertions amongst the Bihac population to Abdic ( and hence the Bosnian Serbs ) were so great that your heroic Islamist Govt in Sarajevo were forced to directly fly in Mujahideen into the enclave to bolster Gov't lines.

Trust you to side with the Islamists against the Secular muslims.

But, do keep on posting, you're a hoot.

102 posted on 12/19/2006 8:53:56 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Hoplite

Still defending Dr Balls, Hoplite? Oh, that's funny. Please explain why is testimony was soooooo good.

103 posted on 12/19/2006 8:59:36 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

From Red6

"You're no different than the German today complaining that they were bombed in WWII"

Why this belitting of the crimes of the NAZIs in WW2?

The entire total of deaths in the Bosnian civil war was 100,000. From all sides, both civilian and military. This was a 4 way civil war.

Muslim against Croat
Croat against Serb
Serb against Muslim
Secular Muslim ( Abdic ) against Islamist( Izebegovic )

Yet you compare the crimes of the Bosnian Serbs with the NAZIs?

I wonder.

Is this belittling the crimes of the NAZIs by accident or design. I say this because your hero, Izetbegovic, was a WW2 war criminal, his "Muslim Youth" ( Young Muslim )movement was based on the Fascistic Muslim Brotherhood and provided the canon fodder for the Handzar Division. Many of his lifelong political colleagues actually donned the SS uniform AND he named his Praetorian Guard , "Handzar", in honour of same said SS Division.

Is that why you whitewash the crimes of the NAZIs?

104 posted on 12/19/2006 9:13:55 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

" Kind of like the Holocaust denier, but as we know, you guys don’t like any correlation to the Nazi’s or WWII."

Oh, the irony AGAIN. It's YOUR hero, Izetbegovic who denied the Holocaust.

He was kind of unusual in that he had VERY close links with the Saudi Arabian Wahhabis ( Holocaust deniers ) AND the Iranian Gov't ( Holocaust deniers too ) .

Your boy.

The Bosnian Serbs biggest ally ( along with Greece ) was the Israelis. So the IDF are Holocaust deniers too?

105 posted on 12/19/2006 9:19:14 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: getoffmylawn

From getoffmylawn to Red6

"It would probably be best for yourself, and everyone else, if you just stayed away from the BALKANS threads"

That's uncalled for. We all need to laugh at SOMEONE.

106 posted on 12/19/2006 9:25:44 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6
["I give up. You win."]

Just out of curiosity Red6, do you always consider people who don't agree with your point of view as "deniers" or rather as people "who are trying to rewrite history?"
107 posted on 12/19/2006 9:56:19 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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That was what I meant...the war was misrepresented one way only, that being that the poor Muslims were the innocent, they were slaughtered by the "evil" Serbs. You were right, times like these makes us wish for people like Vlad Tepes, the true historical version, not the Hollywood concept. While they portray him as a murderer, a cruel and bloody man, the truth is that he was beloved by his people and his involvement in successful crusades against the Ottomans made him so popular with most of his neighbors, church bells would toll from Rhodes to Genoa upon hearing about his successful campaigns against the Ottomans. He was a huge threat to the sultan responsible for the destruction of Constantinople, the true spot of Christian development, a destruction which brought on another misrepresented concept of dark times in Europe which was nothing more than lack of findings of documents, books, art which were actually destroyed by the Muslims during their invasion of Constantinople. But I digress and this brings to mind a comment made by Christopher Walken after the 9/11 attacks and his unsatisfaction with our soft military action against the terrorists, comment in which he said that if this was Russia which suffered this type of attack, the second day Middle East would have been transformed into a parking lot. And I agree with him!

108 posted on 12/20/2006 1:23:53 AM PST by rxgalfl
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To: Red6

You need to catch up.....this is 100% correct, no discussion. In other words, once the pieces fall together the picture is clear. You either have not accomplished this or you are clearly one of the college Jr.s or Seniors that are going after your Political Science degree and are paid to take on the "forum" crowd. You are clearly out of your league or class and way behind the power curve for this subject. Reference the following........for only one example....

Clark placed career ahead of nation in Kosovo

Tucson Citizen

The Dan Christman and Chuck Larson guest column published on Jan. 8 - "Gen. Clark's stand vs. Milosevic praiseworthy" - was remarkable as much for what it didn't say as for the distortions in what it did say.
In praising Clark's testimony against former Yugoslav dictator Slobodan Milosevic before the International Tribunal at The Hague, the authors failed to mention that Milosevic was not permitted to question Clark on what the general had written in his book, "Waging Modern War."

Also, the U.S. government demanded and received the right to edit videotapes and transcripts of the sessions before they were made public. Following his secret testimony at The Hague, Clark, in answer to an inquiry about what should happen to Saddam Hussein, hypocritically stated that it was important that Hussein's trial not be behind closed doors, so that the whole world could see justice done.

While the article had high praise in general terms for Clark's leadership of NATO forces in the Balkans, a critical look at his performance tells a different story.

In "Waging Modern War" Clark writes about his fury upon learning that Russian peacekeepers had entered the airport at Pristina, Kosovo, before British or American forces.

In an Aug. 3, 1999, article, "The guy who almost started World War III," The Guardian (UK) wrote: "No sooner are we told by Britain's top generals that the Russians played a crucial role in ending the West's war against Yugoslavia than we learn that if NATO's supreme commander, the American Gen. Wesley Clark, had had his way, British paratroopers would have stormed Pristina airport, threatening to unleash the most frightening crisis with Moscow since the end of the Cold War. 'I'm not going to start the third world war for you', Gen. Mike Jackson, commander of the international K-For peacekeeping force, is reported to have told Gen. Clark when he refused to accept an order to send assault troops to prevent Russian troops from taking over the airfield of Kosovo's provincial capital."

Gen. Clark's buddy in Kosovo was Hashim Thaci, the leader of the Kosovo Liberation Army which, according to the July 30, 2002, Belfast News Letter (N. Ireland), is engaged in sex slavery, prostitution, murder, kidnapping and drugs.

The Daily Telegraph reported on Feb. 19, 2002, that "European drug squad officers say Albanian and Kosovo Albanian dealers are ruthlessly trying to seize control of the European heroin market ..." This is the same Hashim "The Snake" Thaci with whom Clark was photographed in a triumphal handshake after NATO forces occupied Kosovo.

As for his ability as a military leader, Gen. Clark failed on two counts: the Kosovo air campaign and his plan for a ground campaign. While the questionable effectiveness of the air campaign is not solely his responsibility, his coverup of the results ("Kosovo Cover Up," Newsweek, May 15, 2000) are testimony to his dedication to power and career.

As for a ground war, which Gen. Clark admits that he favored, he insists that he could have conducted a successful ground war in Kosovo by sending supporting Apache helicopters through the mountain passes between Albania and Kosovo, a plan which was described to me by an Apache pilot as "hare-brained" and "suicidal."

There is no doubt that a ground war with the might of 19 NATO nations behind it eventually would have succeeded, but at what cost and why? To feed Gen. Clark's ego and ambition.

Before accepting the judgment of Adm. Larson and Lt. Gen. Christman, one should also consider the comments of two retired four-star generals, Gen.Tommy Franks, who led the campaign to capture Baghdad, and Gen. Hugh Shelton, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

An article in the Jan. 12 New Yorker quoted statements they made shortly after Clark announced his candidacy. When asked if Clark would make a good president, Franks' short reply was, "Absolutely not." When asked the same question, Shelton replied that "... the reason he came out of [his NATO command in] Europe had to do with integrity and character issues ... Wes won't get my vote."

Such comments by retired four-star generals about another four-star are almost unprecedented. They should not be taken lightly.

If Gen. Clark had had his way in Kosovo, we might have gone to war with Russia, or at least resurrected vestiges of the Cold War, and we certainly would have had hundreds if not thousands of casualties in an ill-conceived ground war.

Clark's obsession with career and power is what we saw too often in senior leaders during the Vietnam War and hoped never to see again in those with positions of responsibility for the lives of our GIs and the security of our nation.

Col. George Jatras, USAF (Ret.), of Camp Hill, Pa., flew 230 F-4 combat missions in Vietnam, served for seven years with various NATO designated units, was the senior Air Force attaché to the Soviet Union ('79-'81) and the senior Air Force advisor to the Naval War College, where he also served as an instructor in the Strategy Department.

109 posted on 12/20/2006 1:32:35 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: rxgalfl

Good post.

110 posted on 12/20/2006 1:32:38 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Hoplite

seems to run in the,is he or she your sibling? Hmmmmmmmmm,

111 posted on 12/20/2006 2:33:24 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill
Tom: Red6 says; ["The comparisons of Serbia to Nazi Germany are 100% spot on, although no doubt Germany was far worse in magnitude."]

Notice any contradictions?- or is it just me?
112 posted on 12/20/2006 2:36:45 AM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Red6; Bokababe; joan; montyspython; DTA; getoffmylawn; ma bell; Beckwith; ...

you are the one that started the personal attacks and disinformation distribution. I'm not writing this to you, as there is a 100% chance that you won't read these and certainly won't make any intelligent remarks pro but, mostly negative as you are in a state of denial or paid to be a ....well, you know, the big "Pro"....:) but, it's just these few articles and comments that still keep me sort of "hung up" you might say. :)) I write these not for you, but, fortunately you keep responding in order to allow the rest of us to sound off with the truth. So, keep up the good work, this is good exercise and publicity. lolol...

Go ahead for Balkan oil pipeline
Albania, Bulgaria and Macedonia have given the go ahead for the construction of a $1.2bn oil pipeline that will pass through the Balkan peninsula.
The project aims to allow alternative ports for the shipping of Russian and Caspian oil, that normally goes through the Bosphorus straits.
It aims to transport 750,000 daily barrels of oil.
The pipeline will be built by the US-registered Albanian Macedonian Bulgarian Oil Corporation (AMBO).
The pipeline will run for nearly 900 kilometres from the Bulgarian port of Burgas, over the Black Sea to the Albanian city of Vlore on the Adriatic coast, crossing Macedonia.
Delayed project
The project was first conceived in 1994 but has suffered delays due to uncertainties about whether there was sufficient demand.
By signing the agreement on Tuesday, the prime ministers of Bulgaria, Albania and Macedonia have overcome the problem.
"This is one of the most important infrastructure projects for regional, EU, and Euro-Atlantic integration for the western Balkans," said Albanian Prime Minister Fatos Nano.
According to AMBO president Edward Ferguson, work on the pipeline will begin in 2005 and it is expected to be ready in three or four years.
He added that the company had already raised about $900m from the Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC) - a US development agency - the Eximbank and Credit Suisse First Boston, among others.
The project has also the support of the European Union.
Analysts have said that oil companies like ChevronTexaco, Exxon Mobil and British Petroleum would be happy to find alternative routes to the Bosphorus and Dardanelles Straits.
Story from BBC NEWS:

Published: 2004/12/28 16:19:23 GMT


Pipeline Diplomacy
The Clinton Administration's
Fight for Baku-Ceyhan

Macedonia Albania seal accord on AMBO oil pipeline project
OHRID, Macedonia -- Officials from Macedonia and Albania signed an agreement Monday (October 30th) on the exit points of the AMBO oil pipeline. The one in Macedonia will be near the village of Lakaica, while the entry point in Albania will be near the village of Stebleve, in the municipality of Elbasan. Macedonia selected Deve Bair locality as an entrance oil pipeline point, while the Bulgarian exit point is expected to be determined shortly. The 917-km long pipeline is to carry Caspian oil from Burgas, Bulgaria to Valona, Albania. (Vecer - 31/10/06; MIA, Makfax - 30/10/06)

Terror war and oil expand US sphere of influence
GIs build bases on Russia's energy-rich flank
By Scott Peterson | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor

MOSCOW – As the Roman Empire spread two millenniums ago, maps had to be redrawn to reflect new realities. In similar fashion, the expansion of the British Empire kept cartographers at their drawing boards, reshaping territories from Southern Africa to India to Hong Kong.
Now, as the United States wages its war on terrorism in Afghan-istan – and deploys troops for the first time in the energy-rich regions of Central Asia and the Caucasus – the borders of a new American empire appear to be forming. ( See map.)

Firmly in the Russian and later Soviet sphere of influence since Napoleon's day, these strategic regions, along with their Middle Eastern ramparts to the south, are now home to 60,000 American troops.

Some of these soldiers are building what appear to be long-term bases at remote Central Asian outposts, raising critical questions about America's future role.
One aim is the containment of Islamic extremism, a goal shared by Russia on its vulnerable southern flank. Looking to challenge OPEC leader Saudi Arabia in the oil markets, Russia is also worried about protecting its growing economic interests in Central Asia and the Caucasus, which are crisscrossed by oil and gas pipelines – and potentially lucrative new routes.

But the new nearness of America is triggering heated debate in Moscow, where President Vladimir Putin, by permitting US deployments, is being widely blamed for "losing" Central Asia and succumbing to a new American imperialism.
Others say that Mr. Putin – recognizing that 70 percent of Russia's state budget comes from oil and natural gas exports – has simply traded in cold-war baggage for a new, clear-eyed pragmatism amid Russia's harsh economic realities.

Already 3,000 Americans are based in Uzbekistan, and are believed to run both overt and covert operations in Afghanistan from there. Commanders are setting up new facilities in Kyrgyzstan for a combat air wing and humanitarian missions, with 3,000 more troops.
A deal has been struck with Tajikistan – where Russia has 10,000 of its own troops guarding the Afghan border. Americans have held secret military meetings with Armenia – a key Russian ally – and talks with Kazakhstan. Up to 200 American advisers will soon be helping Georgia control its unruly Pankisi Gorge, where terrorists are suspected to be hiding.

While the US may have grand imperial designs – some experts even go so far as to speak of US troops "guarding" Caspian energy resources in case Iraqi oil supplies are disrupted by any American attempt to change the regime in Baghdad – others emphasize common US-Russian economic interests.
"Don't think like a 'cold warrior,' " says Pat Davis Szymczak, the American publisher of the bi-monthly, Moscow-based magazine Oil and Gas Eurasia, who points out that the bulk of Central Asian energy resources reach the market through Russian pipelines.

"Are we going to send a bunch of Marines to stand around an oil well with guns? So they've protected that oil – big deal. Are they going to take it away in armored vehicles?" Ms. Szymczak asks. "The only way to get it from Uzbekistan to cars in New York is by being friends with the Russians."
While the presence of American forces and the overthrow of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan are causing fresh thinking about how to tap Caspian riches, the context of cold war rivalries – played up by regional leaders often eager to wiggle free of Russia's influence – still dominates discourse.

During a recent tour of the region, state Duma speaker Gennady Seleznyov, warned that "Russia will not endorse the emergence of permanent US military bases in Central Asia."
"The Russians have every reason to be worried" about US intentions in their "soft underbelly," says Thomas Stauffer, an energy strategist and former Harvard professor in Washington. "The only geopolitical logic I can see [to long-term US moves]," Stauffer adds, "is that we want to get a certain amount of space on the checkerboard, with which we can negotiate with the Russians."

Such considerations haven't escaped notice in Washington, where US Secretary of State Colin Powell last December said that Kazakhstan's oil was becoming of "critical importance."
And "Caspian reserves could be critical to future global energy supply," notes an analysis earlier this month by the respected, London-based Jane's Foreign Report. "This is in line with the doctrine of 'full-spectrum dominance' that now seems to govern American foreign policy and is manifesting itself in the Caucasus and Central Asia," the report said.

Escaping the template of Cold War rivalry is proving difficult, even though US-Russian economic interests often coincide. "The Russian security establishment still contains a high proportion of dinosaurs," says Anatol Lieven, a regional analyst at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington.

Many in the US see Russia through old prisms, despite Moscow's demonstrated commitment to helping the US wage war in Afghanistan and elsewhere. "You have people who are still saying Russian policy in the 'near abroad' [the former Soviet states] is a key threat to American interests," Lieven says.

That some in Washington want to keep US troops in Central Asia beyond the Afghanistan campaign "accentuates the fact that the war on terrorism is horribly complicated, and risks being lost by being overloaded with other agendas," Lieven adds. "One problem is that some in the Pentagon are gung-ho for world domination. And then you have [others] who say: 'Hang on a second, we are not prepared for that.' "
Moscow's former domains stretch from Uzbekistan to Ukraine, and have often bristled under Russia's strong-arm tactics to re-exert control. The US arrival may be forcing changes.
"The fact that Russia has acquiesced to US troops in Central Asia and indeed Georgia, shows that Russia itself is prepared to play a much more open and even-handed role in the region," says Julian Lee, a senior analyst at the Center for Global Energy Studies in London. "But we're seeing Russian interest in business channels, rather than political and military ones. It's the sensible way forward."
Some observers say that Putin's KGB background makes him as wary as anyone of American moves – but also realistic about the imperative of a pro-West future.

"We are living in the age of a new Rome," notes Andrei Piontkovsky, head of the Center for Strategic Research in Moscow, in an analysis published over the weekend. Dismissing Russia's "boot-licking elite," which he says is "choked with hostility toward the US," Mr. Piontkovsky says that energy reserves and influence at the start of the new century will allow Russia and the US to be "useful partners ... if Russia proves able to overcome its cold war-defeat complex and the United States learns not to trumpet its victories."

Pipelines can be another point of cooperation. The US has long pushed for an oil line from Azerbaijan to Turkey, which deliberately bypasses Russia and Iran. But Russia has a key stake in the year-old, Chevron-led CPC pipeline, which carries Kazakh oil to a Russian Black Sea port.
And though laughed at when first proposed during Taliban rule, plans to build two pipelines, oil and gas, across Afghanistan are now being dusted off. Cutting Russia into any such deal to provide gas to South Asia could make sense, analysts say.

That could help satisfy Russia's bottom line – maximum market share. Russian gas reserves are the largest in the world, but a European Union decision this weekend will break Russia's decades-long monopoly there.

"Putin's a realist, and economics are everything," says Szymczak, of "Oil and Gas Eurasia." The result is a tricky balancing act for Putin, as American influence spreads to Russia's borders. "The reality is that a lot of the money to run this country comes from gas sales," Szymczak says. "Putin needs markets to the east – or the whole thing unravels, and he's got a bigger problem than just a few people thinking: 'Oh goodness, we've got Americans in Uzbekistan!"

Oil Wars The Balkans as an Example
Original article is at Print comments.

by oil war Tuesday, Nov. 20, 2001 at 1:47 PM

An EXCELLENT article about what is going on with oil in Central Asia and the Balkans. I challenge ANYONE to read this and tell me Afghanistan is not about oil. Note the reason he gives for the delay's in Unocol's Afghan pipeline.
Cheney & Bush wherever you look: "...a gang of multinational corporations (including BP, Amoco, Exxon, Unocal, Caterpillar, Halliburton/Brown & Root [Dick Cheney], and Mitsubishi) are using all the military, political, and economic tools at their disposal to destroy and recreate the infrastructure and economy of southeastern Europe in their own image".

Oil Wars: The Balkans
by George Draffan

Wars are often blamed on political, ethnic, and religious animosities, but war is more often the inflamation of these conflicts -- and war is usually about resources: land, transport routes, and above all, resources. What's the most valuable resource in the modern world? Oil.

The 1995 Dayton Accords led to a major NATO military operation to "pacificy" Bosnia-Herzegovina. For the multinational corporations working alongside NATO, one of the most important rewards will be the construction of a trans-Balkan pipeline to bring oil from the Caspian Sea region to Europe. William Ramsay, U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Energy, Sanctions And Commodities, claiming that that Caspian oil is "crucial to the world energy balance over the next 25 years," has revealed that "there already exists a kind of outline of a new Silk Road running through the Caucasus and beyond the Caspian. We think oil and gas pipelines, roads, railways and fiber optics can make this 21st century Silk Road a superhighway linking Europe and Central Asia."

The European Union, the U.S. government, and a gang of multinational corporations (including BP, Amoco, Exxon, Unocal, Caterpillar, Halliburton/Brown & Root, and Mitsubishi) are using all the military, political, and economic tools at their disposal to destroy and recreate the infrastructure and economy of southeastern Europe in their own image. The conflicts of interest between government officials and corporate executives are blatant and revealing.

Recent NATO military action in Yugoslavia is part of a long strategic (economic) battle to control the Balkans. The current focus is to secure oil and gas pipeline routes from the oilfields of the Caspian Sea to the consumers of Europe. Multinational oil corporations from the U.S., Britain and other European countries, and Russia are signing multibillion-dollar contracts with Kazakhstan.

"The oil from this region played a major strategic role during this century's two world wars. Protecting the oilfields of the Caucasus was an Allied priority. During the second world war, oil from the Caucasus was an essential target of Hitler's expansionist policies. Following the 1939 German-Soviet pact, Soviet oil from the Caucasus accounted for a third of Germany's imports. In 1942, Germany repeatedly conducted military campaigns to gain control over the region's natural resources. Towards the end of the 19th century, cut-throat competition had already built up between the oil companies. Russia, fearing loss of control over its petroleum markets, sabotaged an agreement in 1895 between American Standard Oil, the Rothschilds and Nobels. Competition in the region was increasingly fuelled by ethnic conflict, administrative corruption and underdeveloped legal and trade practices. Natural resources have [again] become a major issue in the Caucasus and central Asia in recent years. Specialists reckon that the area might contain the world's third largest oil and natural gas reserves after the Gulf region and Siberia. Oil resources are estimated at 200 billion barrels. The most extensive fields have been located in Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan. Other lesser reserves and oil exploitation sites are to be found in Georgia, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Armenia... The fall of the Soviet empire and its concomitant loss of influence in the region has turned the latter into a grey area where regional powers are pitted against one another, each seeking to ensure that their interests prevail within the new successor republics to the former USSR. These countries are seeking a balance between the interests of the regional power brokers and their own national interests and are hoping that their natural resources will offer them the means of developing their economies, thus generating the stability that is needed within the region. One of the major problems of these landlocked states is oil transport, for which they are dependent on cooperation with their neighbours. This is leading to the formation at regional and international levels of a series of alliances and counter alliances, the aim of which is to allow the countries involved to gain access to or influence over some of the world's most important natural reserves."

113 posted on 12/20/2006 2:47:48 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

do I have to comment.....give me some time to catch my breath...I have to apologize for laughing so hard at such a sad comment, but, the irony of it all just got the best of me. The comparison or the comment, one just cannot comment on, due to the ignorance is.....just sad.

114 posted on 12/20/2006 2:50:06 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: rxgalfl

I have to say, in such a short paragraph you covered the entire subject manner way off the chart....thank you.


115 posted on 12/20/2006 2:52:21 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Red6

"Karpinski like some others in this forum is trying to clear her name be rewriting history. She failed and was fired. She was not malicious, just incompetent."

Sounds like a similar incident in regards to someone failing and fired for incompetancy....does Clark come to mind.....????

116 posted on 12/20/2006 2:55:08 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: rxgalfl

Your point about the Russians is proven by the Moscow theater incident, wherein the the Russian operatives simply put a bullet into the head of the unconscious female suicide bombers. After I saw the video of one of the American's beheadings, I recalled some history about Vlad. (I wish I knew as much as you do.) I concluded that his executions were an act of military strategy, not homocidal mania. I believe Vlad was vastly outnumbered by the Ottomans, and the only way to keep them at bay was to for him to show he could top their brutality.

117 posted on 12/20/2006 3:41:39 AM PST by FNG
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To: tgambill

:)) the Serb military made fools of Clarks should read about how they fooled them.


Serb discusses 1999 downing of stealth (story of non-Serb)

Well, this guy is not Serb, but Hungarian

Today guy is baker...

118 posted on 12/20/2006 3:52:37 AM PST by kronos77 ( and Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: Red6; Hoplite
Red6, well done. You've supplied facts and perspective; things which--save from Hoplite--are not often evident on the Balkans threads. I know with that "6" suffix that you've been hit with much worse than the electronic bombardment of historical revisionism, illogic, fabrications, and personal attacks from our resident Serb nationalists.

The facts of the death & destruction of Serb ethnic cleansing in support of their irredentist goals are well established. It is both factually incorrect and an insult to the United States of America for the Serbs to try and associate what they did in the 90s--in terms of either goals or methods--with what the United States is doing in our current war on terror.

From one military veteran to two others: Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

119 posted on 12/20/2006 3:53:00 AM PST by mark502inf
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To: kronos77

It's too bad that the three in question....have supplied virtually red herrings, and un-substantiated assertions that are supported by what has been proven to be a well contrived effort to deceive the true American patriots, and not the card board types that obtained their rank on toliet paper. The true Patriots do not adhere to the MSM reports as proven by Peter Brocks, book, "Media Cleasing, Dirty Reporting"....The true American patriot was Major General Smedely Butler, who kept this nation from becoming a facist government.........

from another patriot apparently....

These three shrills, shills, or twrills are a menace and are either paid or very much mislead as to the truth. The true patriots WILL NOT allow this to continue without reporting the truth for every lie they tell to promote the travesty against our constitution. they are traitors and should never have donned the uniform.

120 posted on 12/20/2006 4:06:46 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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Same was in Montenegro. On Cetinje, old capitol of Montenegro children were playing with cut Turkish heads. Turks Ottomans were shocked and disgussed by that fact and were pretty much intemmidated by Montenegrin (Serb) actions against them.

Also on a seal of my home city, given to us by Austrian Emperor in 19th century abowe city panorama is arm holding sabre with Turkish head in turban stuck on the tip of the sabre...

121 posted on 12/20/2006 4:09:11 AM PST by kronos77 ( and Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: tgambill
Roman empire did not fall due to barbarian invasion but by the impotence of its sons and their love for gold instead of love for Rome... There were so many barbarians and no Romans...

There is saying "History after Rome is history of the barbarians.."
122 posted on 12/20/2006 4:12:26 AM PST by kronos77 ( and Save Kosovo from Islam!)
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To: kronos77

you see, it's not my country nor the government. There are however, signficant players and those that hold a high position that are controlled by the international bankers, the rest are in line for many different reasons. Most of them are actually misinformed by generations of propaganda. General Butler sums it up and he is just about as credible as one can get......the culprits span two continents that are linked together through the CFR and RIIA.

123 posted on 12/20/2006 6:15:24 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: tgambill

I see Red6 has just received the coup de grace, Free Republic style: praise from Mark.

As damning an indictment as it's possible to imagine.

Red6 , I suggest you sue.

124 posted on 12/20/2006 7:24:01 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: joan

And that first photo of the set is more than a little poignant. Isn't it of an ethnic ALBANIAN couple of kids, who were RETURNING to their village when it was hit by NATO planes on the Djakovica to Prizren road in April, 99 .

They were almost certainly zeroing in on co-ordinates given by KLA target spotters. It was a death sentence to return home: to work with the Serb authorities: ruins the myth of the Serbs forcing the ethnic Albs out.

So they, and many others on that convoy were slaughtered.

As I said, it's poignant, though no doubt poignancy will be lost on the Red6s of this world.

Some more snaps.

125 posted on 12/20/2006 7:58:29 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: tgambill

• Economically depressed
• Resource poor
• Years of socialism and pseudo isolationism before the war
• No major technology or industry worthwhile

About the only thing the former YU has is rocks.

The American soldier does not have magical boots. American leather boots do not make oil bubble out of the ground.


1. As soon as US troops landed in Afghanistan, there were rumors of an oil pipeline that was going to get built. To date - nothing. But those against the war are still pontificating five years later. Occasionally this argument still surfaces with an article about how construction will begin soon, then a year later the next article about how construction will begin soon. Eventually, if Afghanistan succeeds and economically begins to prosper, they may actually be right. "Eventually" (In 20 years) there might be a pipeline as the energy demands increase. But was the war because of this? For whom will this energy be? Who is managing it? Not the US.

The reasoning is, if the nation does not have any natural resources, then demonstrate that it is transported through there. Even a pile of rocks, like Afghanistan can then be shown to have some strategic value for the US and be used as an example of ulterior motives at work. Every country on this planet (To include Mongolia) can be shown to have some strategic value in this way. All wars can be argued to be purely for oil since in some capacity, may it be producing, refining, transport of oil or gas, is in some way significant.

2. Somalia. As soon as US troops landed in Somalia, some reported that "although not yet developed, experts believe that vast oil reserves are present in Somalia." Answer is? Never was true. Sure there is some natural gas, but not even that is significant.

3. Iraq. Of course we know what the anti war pundit today says the real reason for the war was in 2003.

4. Did you know that in American academia some self proclaimed intellectuals in the 60s argued that Vietnam was because of the tin reserves? No shit, as if there is a world shortage of tin.

5. Of course in 1991 during Desert Shield and Storm we were again told "It's all about the oil". How this is the case they never really explained as we were paying millions for the cleanup and putting out massive fires, but hell, it sounds good.

Another example of a different type:

During the invasion of Panama the argument was “The US wants to control the strategically significant Panama Canal”. On time, the Canal was handed over to Panama in accordance to the bilateral agreements and in fact is operated by a firm today that is based out of the Peoples Republic of China. In this case, like so many other concocted theories of how it's all about the oil, the floated argument was that our "oil" needs the Panama Canal because it's shipped all over.

Do people like you ever go back and admit that they were wrong? Of course not, they just move to the next war and scream the same thing “It’s all about the oil”.


Cliché is no argument. It’s a method of arguing that is emotionally based. It tries to change perception by appealing to some preconceived notion.

Example of a cliché argument. After the unification in 1989 CNN ran endless reports on the new unified Germany. Coincidentally they showed a picture of a tank crushing a car and reports on the rise of neo-nazis in Germany. Anyone with a clue knows if anything, the threat to Germany comes from the left with parties like the WASG/PDS (Former Communists of the DDR) which actually DO have political influence. But nonetheless the cliché argument was floated and many talked about the threat of neo-nazi’s in Germany etc.

(Back to your pipeline)
They are building a small pipeline that will regionally feed energy. The US does not own the pipeline. They are not building the pipeline. They are merely one of the investors. Read your BBC article again. In long tradition of “It’s all about the oil” you present this as some reason for a war which cost tens of billions. When the Balkans began falling apart, no one knew what the future would be, but apparently the US at the time already knew about the pipeline when they looked in their crystal ball. Do you know what asinine means? There are hundreds of pipelines. There are pipelines in Texas, Utah, Nevada, California, Alaska…… more or being built by the week. Your argument fails in so many aspect of the “common sense test” it’s hardly worth mentioning, if it were not for the fact that it keeps getting recycled in EVERY war by those who oppose US military action.

Look Look, they’re building a pipeline through Panama! The war in Panama was all about the oil! 20 years after the war I can concoct that the intervention was actually for oil. (Do you see what nonsense this is?)

A present day parallel:

In Iraq people say it’s “all about the oil”. The typical cliché argument.

• Iraq is an OPCEC country
• We get practically no oil from Iraq (Our imported oil is from Canada, Mexico, Venezuela and Nigeria)
• US firms are not the ones that are developing Iraqi oil reserves. (It was and remains French and Russian firms)
• The revenue from Iraqi oil goes to the Iraqis who also manage their own production.

We have been spending nearly 100 BILLION since 2003, and some want to pretend this war is about the oil as if there is an economic incentive.


If you want to complain, do so with the Germans and British. They were the political instruments behind the Balkan intervention. If you’re going to construct an argument trying to pretend as if this war was all about an ulterior motive “oil” or “gas” at least do so with those who pushed for the intervention.

"Oil" - the argument that never gets old. At least when it conveniently fits into the picture, no matter how asinine it really is.
126 posted on 12/20/2006 8:02:17 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

Red6, you're losing it.

You forgot to compare the Serbs with the Nazis. And where's the talk of Auschwitz , etc. gone ? Surely de rigueur for any Serbophobe on the internet.

Stay on the ball.

127 posted on 12/20/2006 8:25:28 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: mark502inf; Red6; tgambill; joan; kronos77; Honorary Serb; SJackson
"It is both factually incorrect and an insult to the United States of America for the Serbs to try and associate what they did in the 90s--in terms of either goals or methods--with what the United States is doing in our current war on terror."

No, Mark, what is "an insult to the United States" is that an illegal alien named Florin Krasniqi-- a Kosovo Albanian-- can steal into the US from Mexico in the trunk of a car, get his citizenship and then be seen 10 years later USING US laws to smuggle weapons to KLA terrorists, and paying off high level US politicians to buy US foreign policy! (What's the Krasniqi quote from the Brooklyn Connection? "America is a great place! You give politicians money -- and they pay you back!") That is a slap in the face to America and real Americans!

And if all those here who disagree with you are "Serb Nationalists", then why would the Chief Rabbi of Kosovo, who was driven out of Kosovo by the Albanians, agree with them? He says that Albanians from Albania came in and threw him and the other non-Albanians out, driving them from their homes and the UN would not help him!

Get it straight, Red, the former Yugoslav Muslims (in Bosnia & Kosovo) are not "the Jews" in some modern day Holcaust story -- the Albanian Muslims drove out the actual Jews to make room for more Albanians!

And what is in it for the US to have ever gotten ourselves involved in this Balkan fiasco? Nothing! It has made us more enemies than friends, because besides intervention being a mistake period, we topped it off by intervening on the wrong side!

128 posted on 12/20/2006 9:15:07 AM PST by Bokababe (
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To: Bokababe
So far as I can tell, this isn't an American issue, other than immigration. If the suspects are being charged for failing to report to immigration authorities that they served in the Bosnian Serb army, which fought against local Muslims. is correct, they entered the country illegally and so should be deported. Whether to Bosnia or Serbia, I don't know, but that's where their actions will become an issue.
129 posted on 12/20/2006 9:45:56 AM PST by SJackson (had to move the national debate from whether to stay the course to how do we start down the path out)
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To: mark502inf
Mark: If you want to support the point of view that Serbia was equivalent to Nazi Germany (which is what Red6 did) then knock yourself out.

Oh, by the way, can you tell me where the gas chambers and ovens are in Bosnia?...That question points to how stupid your remarks sound.
130 posted on 12/20/2006 10:53:47 AM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: infidel_pride

9-11 and the GWOT came at an opportune time.

Ever since then the Serb agenda has been pushing to make the conflict into the Balkans something that it never was. They want to rewrite history.

Serbia was the antagonist. They had the means and motive to wage a war. They were told to stop because they were destabilizing the entire region and creating chaos. They were warned and threatened. Eventually they were bombed into submission with an air campaign. Now you can attempt to “spin” this reality anyway you want, but those are the facts.

“You forgot to compare the Serbs with the Nazis”

While you attempt to mock this, 48 people are convicted of crimes that were the same sort of things Nazi war criminals were sentenced for. Your defense is always the same as well, deny deny deny.


You can create all the “free Slobodan” websites you want. The legal proceedings will continue and he will go down in flames, like 48 others so far. Because the evidence is there, and unlike here, where all you do is suck up bandwidth by repetitive screaming of irrelevant or bogus arguments, the “facts” speak for themselves.

What makes the Nazi regime what it was? They acted in a "deliberate" and "premeditated" fashion. The orders to commit these atrocities came from the top (leadership directed) and it was "systemic" of the regime in power at the time.

A bad Example: The anti war pundit in Iraq tried their hardest to connect Rumsfeld and even Bush to Abu Gharib. While complete nonsense, this attempt was to construct exactly the argument I'm making which in this case has been "Proven" correct. The leadership in Serbia directed much of what happened. The actions were systemic and widespread, it was premeditated and deliberate. Yes, it is very much so a rational argument to compare Nazi Germany with the actions of Serbia in the Balkans in the late 90s. It’s the same type of scenario where a state engages in activity that is in flagrant violation of international law.

The comparison to Nazi’s truly is over used in the media and common language. Everyone wants to compare those they don’t like to a Nazi. However, in case of Serbia in the late 90s, you have a state that fulfills all the tenants of what in essence made the Nazi regime what it was. The atrocities committed were not the actions of an individual taking it upon himself to do wrong. It was a deliberate state sanctioned premeditated and systematic behavior which Serbia engaged in reference the crimes committed, and this is very much like what the Nazi’s did, like it or not.

On a personal level, I have no love for the Muslim religion. I saw and lived with Arabs on numerous times and have no affinity for their culture. I agree that Islam is the root out of which most the worlds terrorism is borne. I think many who practice this religion sympathize with the Jihadist, even if they don’t personally blow something up. I don’t find very much admirable about this part of the world. It’s a hot ugly, backward place with nasty women. Fluent in several languages myself, I find even the sound of Farsi/Arabic to be repugnant. French is eloquent, Farsi is guttural and from the throat. But what happened in the Balkans late 90s was simply wrong. The ones who are practicing revisionism are the ones who today, in a world of heightened Islamic threat want to just exploit this “argument” as another bullet on their laundry list of fake reasons for why the leadership in Serbia acted the way it did. Truth is, this war in the late 90s was a classical case of where a state wanted to expand its influence and power, increase its area and seize the land/property of others. In complete disregard of human life and suffering, this state went on a quest to seize as much territory as possible just like Germany did in its expansion. The Serbs had the tanks, the fighters, surface to air missiles, officers, and artillery. The Serbs were calling the shots. Just like WWII was “Germany’s” war, the Balkan crisis was a product of “Serbia”. Just like many innocent Germans died in the crushing of this regime, in Serbia many innocent people died when an end was put on the state sponsored actions of that regime. Had NATO not bombed, Serbia no doubt would have just continued their conquest, and this had nothing to do with the protection of Serbs. Just like Germany actually claimed that Poland had attacked them, the Serbs today want to pretend that they were the victims. Today with the advent of the GWOT the new “spin” is that Serbia was fighting Islamic terrorists, gee, what hero’s. It’s nice when the terrorists all congregate together and you can burry them in a mass grave isn’t it? Your pick:

131 posted on 12/20/2006 12:23:43 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: kronos77

I sure hope the good people of my country (America) realize what we are dealing with like you have. Some people here were horrified by Mel Gibson's movie "The Patriot" when he had to have his children help shoot the attacking Redcoats.

132 posted on 12/20/2006 12:50:06 PM PST by FNG
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Zehra T, her face and hands deformed by fire, recalled her escape from a house at Bikavac, into which some 70 people had been locked and burned to death, corralled there, she said, by Lukic and others. Esma K recalled being taken to another house, and imprisoned. "The Passat arrived at 5pm," she said, and within four hours "the sky was light because the house was in flames". She had escaped through a window.

Who're the Redcoats, again?

133 posted on 12/20/2006 1:35:17 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: mark502inf
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

And a Happy Festivus to you too!

= )

Frank Costanza: Many Christmases ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way.
Cosmo Kramer: What happened to the doll?
Frank Costanza: It was destroyed. But out of that a new holiday was born … a Festivus for the rest of us!
Cosmo Kramer: That must've been some kind of doll.
Frank Costanza: She was.

134 posted on 12/20/2006 2:10:55 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite
There is no full name given for the accusations. These people may be unreal, phoney. Where are the photos and full identification.

Many Serbian victims, camp survivors testify and give their full name in the court proceedings.

135 posted on 12/20/2006 2:15:30 PM PST by joan
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Well, I just arrived but a few hours ago in the country of Vlad Tepes and this will make it the perfect opportunity for me to pray at his grave (the one where the historians think he was buried anyway) for his service to his fellow countrymen, his neighbors and his fellow Christians. His impaling was a warning to the enemies of the Christians and also his punishment for the thieves, murderers, the greedy or anyone committing crimes. His judgment was so fierce, gold cups were used at fountains located in street squares, merchant roads, villages and so on, for any thirsty traveler to use and nobody would dare stealing them: they belonged to the people! I am tired and the jet lag is setting in so time to get some sleep. Good night and see you around the forum!
136 posted on 12/20/2006 2:45:55 PM PST by rxgalfl
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To: joan
The trial of Sreten and Milan Lukic hasn't yet started hearing evidence, as far as I know, so you're just going to have to either wait for it, or review the similar Pionirska Street burning portion of the completed Vasiljevic trial, (who's victims are listed under Annex A of the linked Lukic indictment), of which I link the judgement here.
137 posted on 12/20/2006 3:18:45 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Red6

And Agim Ceku, who killed more Serbs than anyone, you attempt to seat as the Prime Minister of the stolen state of Kosovo.

Hell of a glass house you got there, Dhimmi.

138 posted on 12/20/2006 6:35:30 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: mark502inf

marky mark, I see you think you can change propaganda into facts if you shout it loudly enough.

You are an excellent Dhimmi.

139 posted on 12/20/2006 6:37:34 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Red6
On a personal level, I have no love for the Muslim religion.

Your posts show that to be yet another falsehood.

140 posted on 12/20/2006 6:40:25 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Red6
["On a personal level...I don’t find very much admirable about this part of the world. It’s a hot ugly, backward place with NASTY WOMEN."] (capitalization added for emphasis.)

An example using your own words to amplify just how judgmental, intolerant, and insensitive you are.
141 posted on 12/20/2006 7:50:20 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Red6
"You can create all the “free Slobodan” websites you want. The legal proceedings will continue and he will go down in flames, like 48 others so far."

What planet are you living on? Don't know how to break this to you Red -- but Milosevic is DEAD! He died last March! trial over. And you don't even know this fact, but you think that you understand Balkan politics? You are "in kindergarten" with regarding the Balkans and you are acting as though you have a "doctorate", lecturing us with rehashed Clintonite propaganda. It's ridiculous.

I am no Slobo fan. I think that Milosevic belonged in prison --a Serbian prison -- for what he did do, not what he didn't do. But the ICTY is a farce; it is "victor's justice" -- a political hoax. And because the ICTY had nothing on Milosevic and prosecuted him for what he didn't do, they made the SOB a martyr -- and that was the worst of all possible scenarios.

And there was no "opportune time for 9/11". The Balkans is and always has been "a political barometer" of Europe. It is where 3 of the world's major religions meet, and politically where East meets West. You can always bet that if there is "trouble in the Balkans", there is trouble in Europe (and the world), period. And that "trouble" is rarely ever of the making of those who live there -- it has always been a sign that either Germany or the Moslem world are in expansion mode. This time, it was both.

142 posted on 12/20/2006 7:59:37 PM PST by Bokababe (
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To: kronos77
We were on the wrong side of the Kosovo war. KKKlintoon made it so.

If it's any satisfaction to the Serbs, we are paying for it to this day.

Sorry about all that.


143 posted on 12/20/2006 8:01:48 PM PST by LibKill (ENOUGH! Take the warning labels off everything and let Saint Darwin do his job.)
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To: Bokababe

I know he's dead, I know about the conspiracy theories people like you concocted about how he was murdered. Do you read what I write?

---The point your side makes is that all comparisons between Nazi Germany and Serbia are wrong.

*** He was on trail. Look at what he was on trail for in the link I provided. What did he lead?

*** Now pick a Nazi war criminal. Look at what he was on trail for.

As to the free Slobodan web sites:

You know what the problem is with people that defend these acts? Their world view is not much unlike that of some Tutsi or Hutu. The views they express is what one expects from some ignorant gunman in a third world banana republic. A place where heathens and savages, people who are uneducated and uncultured, rule. It’s nearly unimaginable that these people call themselves “European”.

144 posted on 12/20/2006 8:19:35 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Bokababe
["What planet are you living on? Don't know how to break this to you Red -- but Milosevic is DEAD! He died last March! trial over. And you don't even know this fact,..."]

He (Red6) knows it.
He just wants to be malicious. He's an individual that likes to smash others down with substantial verbal blows because somehow he feels that "raises him up."

That's what you're dealing with.
145 posted on 12/20/2006 8:25:23 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Red6

If it hadn't been for Clinton bombing Serb civilians, Slobodan was heading for the Ceaucescu treatment from his own people.

But folks just like you knew better and now the Moslems have two new terror bases in Europe.

Nice shootin', Tex!

146 posted on 12/20/2006 8:45:42 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Bokababe

Just for summary, so that I’m set right the next time I talk to someone about this issue.

1. The NATO intervention was about oil. (That was a good one. lol)

2. Serbia wanted to stop hostile actions but couldn’t because they were stopping AQ operatives. In the cross roads of the Balkans it’s the Serbs that held back AQ all these years!

3. NATO targeted civilians but Serbia is a multiethnic society that wanted to increase their diversity by protecting Muslims in Bosnia. That's why the YPA declared the Eastern and Central parts of Bosnia "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina". The militias, and paramilitaries that swept through these areas were "gentlemen".

4. The kangaroo court in The Hague went on a witch hunt and the real crimes were committed by the Muslims, to include attacks on themselves. (Can you remember the rumors spread about how the Muslims shelled themselves at the market?)

5. The trails at the Hague prove that there was no systemic, deliberate, and premeditated genocide!

6. Most refugees that fled the Balkans were actually Serbs!

7. The Serbs were the ones trying to get to a peaceful resolution as fast as possible but it was NATO and that evil Clark that prevented this.

8. Milosevic was murdered, and all the UN, EU, NATO troops, international media, international tribunal investigations are *conspiring* about what they saw. There were no camps, there were no mass graves.

Now, I understand that when I tell people this I have to say that “If you don’t believe this you’re crazy”. If people doubt anything, just deny it, make counter accusations, and call them names.

I feel enlightened now.

147 posted on 12/20/2006 9:01:20 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

["Now pick a Nazi war criminal. Look at what he was on trail for."]

Okay, I'll pick one. How about Heinrich Himmler?

Now, tell me what trail he was on and then pick his analagous counterpart in Serbia that was on the same trail as that monster?....How about Pol Pot?...oops how silly of me - wrong country that was Cambodia.

148 posted on 12/20/2006 9:11:41 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic


four counts of crimes against humanity (Article 5 – deportation; murder; persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds; other inhumane acts)

Alfred Rosenberg

crimes against humanity set forth in Count 4 of the Indictment, including a wide variety of crimes against persons and property.

Hans Frank

crimes against humanity perpetrated during his administration of the occupied territories.

Wilhelm Frick

count 3 of the indictment and of crimes against humanity as set fort in count 4.

Walter Funk

war crimes according to count 3 and in crimes against humanity under count 4.

Wilhelm Keitel

indictment N° 3, as well as in crimes against humanity according to the act of indictment N° 4, in particular with respect to the cruel treatment inflicted on prisoners of war and civilians in the occupied territories.

Ernst Kaltenbrunner

crimes against humanity, set forth in Count 4 of the Indictment, in particular with respect to the atrocities committed in the concentration camps. You can look at the rest.

If you look at the themes, go beyond the shear semantics, you realize that those sentenced in the Hague, did the same sort of things Nazi war criminals did.

149 posted on 12/20/2006 9:44:50 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

Just a second Red6, before I can respond I need to clarify: Are you saying that Milosevic is analogous (or equivalent) to Heinrich Himmler?
150 posted on 12/20/2006 9:54:01 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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