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U.S.: DISMAY AT ARREST OF ETHNIC SERBS
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.369696675&par=0 ^

Posted on 12/18/2006 10:58:24 AM PST by kronos77

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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

What this debate will now degenerate into is whether killing six million people is worse than killing a few thousand. It's still the same crime.

Someone I knew shot an Iraqi in the head point blank. The Iraqi was no threat and wounded. The Iraqi was most likely mortally wounded and just waiting to die.

This soldier I knew only killed one person in this incident and it's even questionable if he in that split second was thinking about what he was doing. The guy he shot was a bad guy 100% for sure (Part of the Sadr militia). His record was impeccable and he never did anything like that before. He's a nice guy if you meet him in person. Today CPT Maynulet is a convicted felon.

http://stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=27233&archive=true

Are his actions acceptable because he only killed one person illegally?


151 posted on 12/20/2006 10:30:16 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

good answer, but you are missing the big picture. The Oil issue is only one of many reasons. We have always tried to provoke Russian in a war, we are chasing the oil reserves for investing and control purposes, to have access etc....

it's not only about the oil. All these campaigns and wars and such have one purpose in mind for the big picture in the end, while making money along the way. The main objective is to drive the entire globe into a one world government, dictated by a facist system. This sums up the entire strategy with objectives along the way and attempts that have so far failed. This is, of course a over simplified answer, but, I just don't have the time to present a three page thesis.


152 posted on 12/20/2006 10:38:56 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Hoplite

I'll have to admit, your MSM propoents are doing their homework and stepping up the BS and rhetoric, using half truths, possible, reported, and other words that mislead. The truth will be buried by the lies, and half truths if allowed to run it's course without intervention.

The most criminal part, folks like yourself and your supporters can actually sleep at night.


153 posted on 12/20/2006 10:54:20 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: FNG

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm

Opinion?


154 posted on 12/20/2006 11:18:03 PM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Red6
"I know he's dead, I know about the conspiracy theories people like you concocted about how he was murdered."

Did you google that, thinking, "Oh crap! I"ve been caught"?

Love the "you people" reference. Not sure who you are talking about, but I am an American of Montenegrin descent -- family's been here since a little after WWI. Recall saying that Slobo was an SOB, but just go on deluding yourself -- can't seem to stop you.

Did YOU read what I wrote? Or more specifically the link to the interview with James Harff of the PR Firm, Ruder Finn, who bragged about how he created the entire Nazi/Holocaust metaphor for the break-up of Yugoslavia in the press, in spite of the fact that one of his clients -- Tudjman of Croatia, was a Holocaust denying, goose-stepping real Nazi and the other client, Izetbegovic, had said that "there can be no co-existance between Islamic and non-Islamic institutions. Muslims must take control as soon as it is numerically possible"? Nah. Didn't think so.

Have you ever been to the Balkans, Red? Ever seen the place or read anything about it before the place came apart at the seams? I doubt it, or you wouldn't be so gullible. Nor would you be so quick to divide the people into groups of "black hats" and "white hats", if you had family -- as I do -- who are mixed.

Unless of course, you are just another fool who Hoplite drug in -- as he has many -- to take the blows while he hides behind you cheering you on. If so, good luck with that!

This whole debate is far off from the original article and appear to be going nowhere.

155 posted on 12/20/2006 11:33:43 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Red6
["His record was impeccable and he never did anything like that before. He's a nice guy if you meet him in person. Today CPT Maynulet is a convicted felon."]

Well, I'm actually a very nice guy too (at least that's what people tell me).
You may want to give him some advice.
What I did, under similar circumstances, is I subsequently got my Ph.D. (mathematical statistics) and became an active scholar and professor. People can't take your brains away from you - especially in my field because they don't understand what I'm talking about :-)
156 posted on 12/20/2006 11:44:20 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Bokababe
["Unless of course, you are just another fool who Hoplite drug in -- as he has many -- to take the blows while he hides behind you cheering you on. If so, good luck with that!"]

Interesting how Hoplite made very few comments.
157 posted on 12/20/2006 11:55:41 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Bokababe; joan; montyspython; DTA; getoffmylawn; ma bell; Beckwith; Southside_Chicago_Republican; ..

Before we throw stones, we need to clean up our own back yard and face the issues head on. A true patriot is not going along with the administration or following the MSM's reports, but staying with the Constitution and Bill of Rights, that were in effect in the beginning, staying with the Ten Commandments and fighting any and all efforts to change either......



http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/index.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/understanding_fascism.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/rise_of_american_fascism.htm

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/war/understanding_the_real_factors_b.htm

A quote:

"This has been going on for years, essentially the post WWII Communist movement was just a movement by under developed countries to break free from foreign interference, largely American and European interference. That's why the end of the Cold War had to see the beginning of a new war, the War on Drugs and the War on Terror. America has to be constantly at war because that is the only way to maintain the economy. By being at war it gives American agencies access to the funding that they need to maintain global preeminence.

This is what the issue was with Iran/Contra. Congress, not a full supporter of the schemes of the American wealthy elite at that time, pulled funding from the wars that the Reagan administration was trying to wage in the Middle East and South America to maintain American preeminence, so covert illegal action was taken because it was a war that the wealthy felt had to be fought to maintain the American economic position. It's why the CIA facilitated the sale of cocaine to American cities, to fund the wars that are required to maintain the American economy.

The truth is that the economic freedoms that we enjoy here in America, and the lifestyles that we all live, are a product of years of American global oppression. That's why there are terrorists in the world that hate America, and whether or not American citizens know it, the rest of the world knows it. This issue is not just an American issue though. This is an issue between all developed countries and underdeveloped countries, including countries like Australia, Japan, European countries, etc. America is just the largest offender, but there are many offenders.

More precisely it is an issue between wealthy international capitalists and the under privileged populations of the world.

The real way that American foreign investment works is this:

Wealthy American investors build factories, farms, oil wells, etc. in under developed countries where labor and resources are cheap.

The people eventually get restless and rebel against the foreign investors because of unfriendly business practices and the effort by business to maintain cheap labor and working facilities.

The American investors get support for a coup from the American government who employs any number of means to put an American business friendly leader into office in the country (overt war, covert war, funding of local loyalists, assassination, etc).

American banks, or the IMF, give loans to the country, which the American friendly leader agrees to take out, for things like the building of infrastructure, roads, railroads, shipping ports, etc. The rational is that this infrastructure will help the country develop economically. Of course the country is really paying to build things that serve the interests of the American investors.

America also agrees to train the police and military forces of the country so that the leader can protect his position.

America then pays "foreign aid" to the leader of the country in order to keep the leader loyal to American interests, as well as supplying the government with arms.

In addition, the American investors that are now doing business in the country also give payoffs to the local leadership to keep them loyal to the American business interests.

These countries do not have constitutions that grant significant rights to the people. The governments are loyal to America, not their own populations. As the people begin to fight for labor rights and improved working conditions and increased pay, the governments use the American supported military and police to oppress the population.

By doing this America has cultivated American loyalists in countries all over the world, who are loyal to American interests, not the interests of their own countries. America sees to it, or at least attempts to, that these American loyalists are who maintains political power in these countries.

Traditionally there have been two typical consequences of this since WWII. The people either move towards Communism or Islamic fundamentalism. This is for a variety of different reasons, but the main thing that both scenarios have in common is that radical leaders that oppose foreign control over the local government gain growing support as the people become increasingly more desperate to rid their country from oppressive foreign control.


158 posted on 12/21/2006 12:05:47 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Red6

Well, points for being shameless.

Your hero Izetbegovich recruited for the SS.

And you dare lecture others on the evil of the NAZIs.

As I said, points for being shameless.


159 posted on 12/21/2006 4:47:42 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

You really are a Holocaust revisionist. Moral equivalence to the n'th degree. And then some.

You really are desperate to cleanse the Balkan SS soldiers of their guilt aren't you.

And you can still sleep at night?

Their ethnic German officers wrote of their disgust at what your heros did to Serbs, Roma and Jews, yet all you can do is jump to their defence.

My my.

Shame hath no name.


160 posted on 12/21/2006 4:55:25 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

Whoops! Don't tell Mark or Hoplite who've just sent you Xmas greetings.

"Since Islam's tradition does not include Santa's Christian forebear, St. Nicholas, some activists have decided that Muslims can do without him altogether.
That means no visits, and no presents, for school children in this predominantly Muslim city."

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/12-96/12-25-96/a07wn031.htm

Santa Claus BANNED.

Kafka meets Orwell.

It'd be funny if it weren't so tragic.


161 posted on 12/21/2006 5:07:32 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

Hey, Red6, what do you think about your hero, Izetbegovic meeting with Bin Laden?

Or how about the EIJ ( Egyptian Islamic Jihad ) being invited into Albania after they fled Egypt? This included the Zawahiri brothers.

Or how about Muhammed Atta being in Bosnia during the civil war?

So, if they were heroes when they slaughtered Serbs were they STILL heroes on 9 11?

An honest question.


162 posted on 12/21/2006 5:18:45 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Bokababe

Actually I have been to Pula, Krk, Piran...... up and down Istria numerous times before things fell apart. But that's a side bar.

I'm not from there, but I see that "people like you" are close minded and arguing from a ridiculous position attempting to "justify" and "rationalize" war crimes.


163 posted on 12/21/2006 5:30:28 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: LibKill

Succinct , to the point .


164 posted on 12/21/2006 5:32:15 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

So , and this is getting even funnier , you don't care that

a) the entire Jewish population of Kosovo was ethnically cleansed AFTER NATO and the KLA took over in 1999

b) the Israelis were one of the VRS's biggest supplier of weaponary.

c) they also gave a lot of intel to the VRS.

ON THE OTHER HAND

a) your hero , Izetbeogvic helped recruit for the SS : the Balkan SS soldiers guarded the trains that carried Jews, Rom, Serbs to the death camps.

b) he refused to pay his respects at Ataturk's grave . The ONLY other head of state ever to do that was the Iranian leader . For Islamists , Ataturk's an apostate .

c) he welcomed the Islamists into the heart of Europe .

d) he said that the state of Israel had NO RIGHT TO EXIST . NONE at all .

e) he wanted to create a Caliphate again . Yes , I kid you not .

f) When he fell ill , he insisted on being flown for treatment to Saudi Arabia . The land that still has slavery .

g) The very same guys who carried out BOTH attempts on the WTC had very close links with your hero.

Can't you even PRETEND to care?

You know , PRETEND to give a crap?


165 posted on 12/21/2006 5:45:40 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6
You seem to be comparing places where there was no internal civil war and separatism, such as German and Rwanda - where peaceful, unarmed citizens were killed, against former Yugoslav republics where separatist militants and armies were extremely large and were killing and ethnically cleansing Serbs everywhere Serbs had no protection.

There were tanks and MiGs and barracks controlled by the separatists who were receiving covert supplies and shipments from Germany, Hungary, Iran, Argentina, etc. even before the wars began and throughout the war.

You forget that non-Serbs were heading the Yugoslav army and they simply deserted or turned over entire barracks. The ethnic Croats of the airforce simply flew over to Croatia and fought for the country. The Croat pilots also bombed and strafed Serb refugees as they fled the Croat army during Olija.

166 posted on 12/21/2006 5:57:06 AM PST by joan
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To: Hoplite

That movie was highly fictionalized to show certain British as heinous war criminals. I am no expert on the Balkans, but everthing I need to know about muslims I learned on 9/11/01.


167 posted on 12/21/2006 6:03:42 AM PST by FNG
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To: kronos77

BTTT


168 posted on 12/21/2006 6:07:44 AM PST by Unicorn (Too many wimps around.)
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To: tgambill

True patriotic Americans who support our Constitutional Republic are not facists. The only facists in America are Neo-Nazis and Islamics who share their anti-Semitism. Conservative Christian Americans are not facists or racists, although the MSM propaganda ministry of the godless left wing controlling the democratic party continues to brand us as such. Goebbles would be proud.


169 posted on 12/21/2006 6:11:06 AM PST by FNG
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To: FNG

Absolutely..........I hope that came across. I agree with you about true patriots support our constitutional republic. There are some that are being very tricky about that.


170 posted on 12/21/2006 6:18:13 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Red6

One final point.

Izetbegovic was hugely influenced by the Muslim Brotherhood , a honey pot of Holocaust Revisionists , Holocaust Deniers and full bloodied anti-Semites .

By contrast , in Serbia , under Milosevic's rule , I think that only ONE publication was ever banned . Guess which ? That's right , "The Protocols of Zion" . It was rightly banned for being anti-Semitic.

You certainly pick 'em.


171 posted on 12/21/2006 6:20:05 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: infidel_pride

You wrote:
You really are a Holocaust revisionist. Moral equivalence to the n'th degree. And then some.

You really are desperate to cleanse the Balkan SS soldiers of their guilt aren't you.

And you can still sleep at night?

Their ethnic German officers wrote of their disgust at what your heros did to Serbs, Roma and Jews, yet all you can do is jump to their defence.

My my.

Shame hath no name.
--

Thank you. You gave me bullet #9.

Just for summary, so that I’m set right the next time I talk to someone about this issue.

1. The NATO intervention was about oil. (That was a good one. lol)

2. Serbia wanted to stop hostile actions but couldn’t because they were stopping AQ operatives. In the cross roads of the Balkans it’s the Serbs that held back AQ all these years!

3. NATO targeted civilians but Serbia is a multiethnic society that wanted to increase their diversity by protecting Muslims in Bosnia. That's why the YPA declared the Eastern and Central parts of Bosnia "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina". The militias, and paramilitaries that swept through these areas were "gentlemen".

4. The kangaroo court in The Hague went on a witch hunt and the real crimes were committed by the Muslims, to include attacks on themselves. (Can you remember the rumors spread about how the Muslims shelled themselves at the market?)

5. The trails at the Hague prove that there was no systemic, deliberate, and premeditated genocide!

6. Most refugees that fled the Balkans were actually Serbs!

7. The Serbs were the ones trying to get to a peaceful resolution as fast as possible but it was NATO and that evil Clark that prevented this.

8. Milosevic was murdered, and all the UN, EU, NATO troops, international media, international tribunal investigations are *conspiring* about what they saw. There were no camps, there were no mass graves.

(Your contribution) ***9. Because Serbia stood against the Germans in WWII, the Serbs enjoy automatic unlimited immunity for all actions. In fact, if Serbia (as a state) engages in behavior similar to the Nazi regime any comparisons are disqualified on this basis.
---
The Germans today regret and do not attempt to cover up or deny what happened in WWII, what is your side doing?

The Germans will take their own soldiers and prosecute them for wrong doing if they are caught, what would your side do if outsiders did not enforce justice? There is no doubt that if a German soldier commits a crime in the Balkans, Afghanistan, or anywhere else; the Germans will prosecute this man.

The Germans despise the acts of the SS, Nazi regime; their media is full of resentment and anger towards the actions of this regime and these troops. Those who were members live with this knowledge in near secrecy.

The aspect that probably defines your people best is that there is no concept of wrong doing. Think about this. Outsiders had to snag war criminals and put them on trail in an international court because as a people, which claim to be Christian and European, you’re to backwards to do the right thing yourself.


172 posted on 12/21/2006 6:35:32 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

Hey hot shot.....we started the whole thing in 1948 and got out collective butts handed to us.....reference Frank Wisner, SR, Balle Kombetar; Operation Fiend, then we stirred up trouble in Bosnia, brought over our scorpions from Afghanistan, Milo responds, heavily handed however, and there you go....

By the way...

Serbia and Russia to build gas pipeline worth $1 bln.
Belgrade/Moscow, 20.12.2006 18:17

http://www.makfax.com.mk/look/agencija/article.tpl?IdLanguage=1&IdPublication=2&NrArticle=48379&NrIssue=224&NrSection=20

Serbian and Russia will construct a gas pipeline passing through Serbia, with estimated value of $1 billion.

A delegation of the Serbian Government signed a memorandum with the Russian company Gazprom today in Moscow today.

The agreement is for the construction of a gas pipeline running through Serbia and extending from the Bulgarian to the Croatian border.

The realization of the project is expected to start next year, and the project foresees for a pipeline to stretch across several countries in South East Europe, bringing gas from Russia to Italy.

According to the announcements, the pipeline will have a capacity of shipping 20 billion cubic meters of gas on a yearly basis.

Serbian President Boris Tadic thanked Russian President Vladimir Putin for the quick start to this project. “Russia has shown once again that it treats Serbia as a friend and advisor”, Tadic said


173 posted on 12/21/2006 6:40:57 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Red6
"Most refugees that fled the Balkans were actually Serbs!"

The census for instance shows the largest drop of an ethnic population was the Croatian Serbs. You can look this up in the CIA factbook for Croatia both just before the war (1991)against that of Croatia's 2002 census - the first official census it took after the war.

In 1991 Croatia had over 12.2% Serbs (not counting "Yugoslavs" in Croatia who were most often ethnic Serbs). In 2002, Serbs were less than 4.5%.

Therefore the Serb population of Croatia dropped from over 12.2% to 4.5%.

Meanwhile the Bosnian Muslim population is claimed to be 42-48% after the war, while only around 42-42% in 1991.

In Kosovo, the Albanians are said to be 90-95% now versus a before war population of 90%, that many believe is over stated by several percent.

The alleged victims of the war increased their percentages of the respected countries - Croatia more Croat than ever; Bosnia, greater Muslim share of population than ever; Kosovo - greater Albanian Muslim population than before the war.

174 posted on 12/21/2006 6:45:14 AM PST by joan
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To: Red6

Yes , congratulations , the German people are indeed ashamed of what the SS did in WW2 . Many of them go to Croatia on vacation and are repulsed when they are greeted by Croats giving them the NAZI salute .

It's YOU who don't seem to care what your hero , Izetbegovich , did in WW2 .

The recruits of the 13th SS division were largely drawn from the MUSLIM YOUTH movement , co founded by your hero , Izetbegovic , and the officer corps was staffed by Germans .

As I've already said , at least PRETEND to be ashamed at what Izetbegovic did in WW2 . And don't worry . We'll all pretend that actually mean it .


175 posted on 12/21/2006 6:46:39 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: infidel_pride

Last sentence one more time.

"We'll all pretend that YOU actually mean it"


176 posted on 12/21/2006 6:48:35 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: infidel_pride

Example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnter_Grass

Take a look at how the Germans ripped him apart when it became public that he was in the SS. You see a little difference with how the Germans are dealing with their past and you?

The Germans today are confronted with their past frequently. Nonetheless they moved on and are today a leading nation in the world community. Actually they were one of the nations that pressed for the intervention in the Balkans.

For a people that like to tout there Christian heritage, you sure look like a bunch of savages and heathens for the outsider.


177 posted on 12/21/2006 6:53:53 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

You haven't answered .

When your "Serb killing" heroes , Muhammed Atta , Bin Laden , Zawahiri , et al , redesigned the NY skyline on 9 11 did you cheer ( after all , your heroes were murdering more Infidels ) or weep ( this time the Infidels weren't Serbs but U.S. citizens )?

Tough call?


178 posted on 12/21/2006 6:54:06 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

So do likewise , oh most noble of men . Lay into your hero for throwing his lot in with the SS . Go on , we'll all pretend you really mean it too . What are you waiting for ?


179 posted on 12/21/2006 6:58:15 AM PST by infidel_pride
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To: infidel_pride
The laundry list of why Serbia is right. You gave me bullet #10.

1. The NATO intervention was about oil. (That was a good one. lol)

2. Serbia wanted to stop hostile actions but couldn’t because they were stopping AQ operatives. In the cross roads of the Balkans it’s the Serbs that held back AQ all these years!

3. NATO targeted civilians but Serbia is a multiethnic society that wanted to increase their diversity by protecting Muslims in Bosnia. That's why the YPA declared the Eastern and Central parts of Bosnia "Serbian Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina". The militias, and paramilitaries that swept through these areas were "gentlemen".

4. The kangaroo court in The Hague went on a witch hunt and the real crimes were committed by the Muslims, to include attacks on themselves. (Can you remember the rumors spread about how the Muslims shelled themselves at the market?)

5. The trails at the Hague prove that there was no systemic, deliberate, and premeditated genocide!

6. Most refugees that fled the Balkans were actually Serbs!

7. The Serbs were the ones trying to get to a peaceful resolution as fast as possible but it was NATO and that evil Clark that prevented this.

8. Milosevic was murdered, and all the UN, EU, NATO troops, international media, international tribunal investigations are *conspiring* about what they saw. There were no camps, there were no mass graves.

9. Because Serbia stood against the Germans in WWII, the Serbs enjoy automatic unlimited immunity for all actions. In fact, if Serbia (as a state) engages in behavior similar to the Nazi regime any comparisons are disqualified on this basis.

**** 10. Two wrongs DO make a right! Things that happened 60 years ago are a good justification for committing war crimes oneself today. After I shoot a random Japanese man in the head, I can say “You bombed Pear Harbor” and everything should be OK. I think I should go on a rampage shooting Mexicans and blame it on the Alamo.
--

Keep talking; your attempts at rationalizing are highly amusing. Sad, but in a macabre way amusing.
180 posted on 12/21/2006 7:41:03 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: FNG
I am no expert on the Balkans

Obviously.

Which explains why you allow yourself to be played for a sucker by the Serbs.

181 posted on 12/21/2006 8:39:29 AM PST by Hoplite
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To: Red6
It took awhile but I got through 180 responses:

My conclusion is that your tag line was very well chosen.

182 posted on 12/21/2006 8:45:03 AM PST by norton
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To: Red6
It's funny how you fail to address factual counter arguments to your list. You failed to address my reports on the numbers of Serbian refugees according to non-Serb sources and the number of ethnically cleansed Serbs which is the largest overall. Why don't you give us your number of Serbian refugees? How many do you count from Croatia, from Bosnia, and from Kosovo?

You also failed to know that Yugoslavia was very competitive in the defense and construction industries.

Yugoslavia built much of the infrastructure for countries like Pakistan, they built in Kuwait, they built Iraq's undergroud bunkers which couldn't be dented by U.S. and British bunker-buster bombs. They outbid and won contracts against NATO countries like Germany.

You fail to address the CENSUS counts after the war which show no genocide of the allegedly genocided.

HOW COME THE MUSLIM POPULATIONS ARE A GREATER PERCENTAGE AFTER THE WAR THAN BEFORE??

You have never listed an U.S. soldiers you claim were witnesses during the war.

The U.S. only sent soldiers mainly AFTER the wars were over and they STOOD BY while SERBS WERE MURDERED BY ALBANIAN MUSLLIMS.

YOU FAIL TO REALIZE THAT SERBS HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED IN MASS GRAVES.

You fail to give autospy reports, along with identifications proving execution versus battle deaths or civilian versus military.

You seem ignorant of the Croat-Muslim war during the Bosnian war, and you don't seem to be aware of where it was fought and the destruction in wrought. Nor the fact that both sides were using heavy weapons against each other.

183 posted on 12/21/2006 8:50:44 AM PST by joan
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To: Hoplite

Atrocities took place on both sides of the Eastern front in WWII. That may be the case here. Are you saying the mulims are poor innocent victims of the vicious Serbs? The Koran commands muslims to play everyone else as suckers, so are you sure it's not you getting played? Everywhere else in the world, it's the Muslims commiting the mass murder, not the Serbs. I'm just giving them the benefit of the doubt, based on global events.


184 posted on 12/21/2006 9:20:01 AM PST by FNG
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To: FNG
Atrocities took place on both sides of the Eastern front in WWII.

Really?

I was unaware - the things you learn around here.

Are you saying the mulims are poor innocent victims of the vicious Serbs?

In Bosnia that was certainly the larger picture in the 1990's war - and of that there is no doubt for you to give the Serbs the benefit of.

185 posted on 12/21/2006 10:11:19 AM PST by Hoplite
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To: Hoplite; Red6; Bokababe; FNG; FormerLib
Frank Costanza: Many Christmases ago, I went to buy a doll for my son. I reached for the last one they had, but so did another man. As I rained blows upon him, I realized there had to be another way.

Cosmo Kramer: What happened to the doll?

Frank Costanza: It was destroyed. But out of that a new holiday was born … a Festivus for the rest of us!

Cosmo Kramer: That must've been some kind of doll.

Frank Costanza: She was.

That was very touching. Do you happen to have a picture of the doll?

And to celebrate this thread--here's an oldie, but goodie:

A WHOLE NATION GOES MAD

Steve Crawshaw

Monday 31st May 1999

Winning the war is the easy bit. It will be harder to restore sanity to the Serbs, argues Steve Crawshaw

You can spend years refusing to face up to the obvious. You can find endless justifications and search for ifs and buts. Eventually, however, there comes a moment when the visitor to the Balkans must simply put his head in his hands and cry: "Enough!" One nagging question returns to haunt you: why have so many millions of Serbs become liars on a grand scale or gone mad, or both?

Everybody feels that their own point of view is sometimes misunderstood. Many feel that their country is right, even when it is wrong. But none except the Serbs have managed in recent years to take this reversal of reality to such a high art form. According to a view held widely in Serbia today, anybody who accuses the Serbs of anything (yes, anything) either has been duped by or is part of an international conspiracy - an a la carte mixture of Bill Clinton (trying to distract from cigars and moral decay in the Oval Office), Germany (with its well-known ambitions for a Fourth Reich) and international Islam (seeking a fundamentalist takeover). When western news reports show Serbs in a bad light, it is only because the reporters are too stupid or venal to tell the shining, shaming truth.

The Serb grasp on reality can make The X Files seem down to earth. Take the extraordinary (and typical) conversation I had recently with Darko, a well-educated resident of Pale, a little town half an hour's drive from Sarajevo that used to be the capital of Radovan Karadzic's Bosnian Serb republic. "Why does Tony Blair blame the Serbs for everything?" Darko asked. "What have Serbs done wrong?"

Well, there's a question and a half. I take a deep breath as I flash through the mental index of the past eight years. Camps, cleansing, rapes, massacres - where shall we start? Finally I cautiously toss out one word: Srebrenica, the little Bosnian town where thousands of civilians were notoriously slaughtered in cold blood in 1995. Every detail of the massacre has been analysed and re-analysed. I expect my new acquaintance to sound defensive when the name is mentioned. Not a bit of it. He leaps upon the name of Srebrenica like a hungry piranha on a bleeding hunk of flesh: "It was war. We tried to relieve our country. There was no massacre." So that's that.

In a Serb Orthodox monastery, I have an equally baffling encounter. Father Luke, the abbot, wistfully notes that international attitudes towards Serbs have changed in recent years. "Before, all doors were open for me as a Serb. Now all of them are closed. What happened?" Another humdinger of a question. My explanation is promptly rejected: "No, it's not to do with what we Serbs have done." In his view Serbs are being crucified for the sins of mankind. "There was a need for one nation to take all the sins on its back."

You can find isolated instances of lunacy in any country. But nowhere more than in Serbia. Take the question of Albanians fleeing Kosovo - Serb TV blames the exodus on Nato raids. Ask Albanian refugees if that is indeed the reason, and they'll tell you that power comes out of the barrel of a Serb gun. The standard, shared experience is of a small group of armed men telling everybody in the village to clear out within the next half an hour, on pain of death.

Ask Serbs why the Albanians are leaving, however, and they will repeat with a straight face the line about Nato bombings. You get the impression that most of them could pass a lie-detector test on the matter. You can blame this in part on the Serb government's powerful propaganda machine. Milosevic's iron control of TV - with its poisonous messages of hate and paranoia - has played an important role in recent years. But even those who have access to alternative sources of news still subscribe enthusiastically to the view of unsullied Serb innocence.

Back in the winter of 1996, things seemed very different. The streets were filled with the deafening sound of thousands of whistles calling time on the Serb leader. The banging of pots and pans every night at 7.30pm was supposed to drown out the lies of TV news. Milosevic briefly seemed doomed, and a healthy Serbia seemed to be emerging. It was all an illusion. Nowadays many of the pot-bangers sit nodding in agreement in front of the TV news.

In recent weeks Nato has sought to highlight the demonstrations against conscription in Serb towns, as a way of proving that support for the regime is less solid than it was. Up to a point. But an unwillingness to allow your sons to be killed is rather different from understanding why your country is under attack in the first place. This far more important change is yet to come.

For the moment, most Serbs have a clear rule of thumb for assessing the accuracy of a news report. If the report shows others in a bad light, it is accurate; if it shows Serbs in a bad light, it is a malicious invention.

As the experience of modern Germany shows, there is nothing pre-programmed about lunacy. Germany was a normal country before 1933 and is a normal country again today. Just as a sane country can turn mad, a mad country can eventually become sane once more. But the change cannot happen overnight. A deep-seated sense of victimhood has helped to reinforce the sense of being misunderstood. In effect the Serbs ask: "How can we be guilty, we who have historically suffered so much? My forefathers fought bravely for a just cause. My country is less rich than many of the nations who accuse us. Therefore my country is free of sin." This conclusion leaves something to be desired in the logic department. But it accurately reflects the Serbs' guiding philosophy of life: once a victim, always a victim.

In short, winning the war against Slobodan Milosevic will be the easy part. Turning Serbs back into sane citizens of the world will be more difficult. If a Serb tells you that this is an unwarranted slur on a brave nation, just ask him or her why Albanians are fleeing Kosovo. Ask what happened at Srebrenica. And get ready for a depressing reply.

186 posted on 12/21/2006 1:04:31 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf; Bokababe
"And to celebrate this thread--here's an oldie, but goodie..."

Or why don't we look at the last few days news from Britain and see what your precious Albanians are up to - reports of them stabbing, murdering, violently robbing, rapist trafficking gangs - violence and crime in spades and in a NATO country. It's how they show their gratefulness for NATO bombing for 'saving' them. Doesn't seem the human rightsters are pressuring Britain for oppressing them and to have them released from jails as they did to Serbia for jailing Albanian criminals. It's interesting that Britain is a big pusher of the Bad Serbs/Good innocent Albanians when Albanians are so often in the violent crime reports within Britain and essential no Serbs committing any violence in Britain the last decade...or two...or three...or ever!

Murder suspect 'could be near'

Dec 20 2006
By Robert Dex

THE prime suspect in the Aaron Stokes murder investigation could be living a few miles from the victim's home,police believe.

Aaron, 24, was killed in a communal room at a homeless hostel in Queens Road, New Cross.

He had been having sex with Renata Mitre when her illegal immigrant brother, Gerald, 20, walked in on them.

Renata, originally from Albania, is said to have covered up for her brother -telling police a mystery intruder murdered Aaron.

This story gave him enough time to go into hiding.

Two violent robbers fail to have sentences cut

Dec 20 2006

THE husband of a woman violently robbed by her own brother-in-law says he is relieved the thug has failed to win a cut in his sentence.

Eddie Niyazi welcomed the judge's refusal last week to reduce Okan Gench's prison term for orchestrating the raid on his house in Shirley where his wife, Sevgul, was attacked.

The 32-year-old mum was gagged, thrown to the floor, punched in the face and stomach and had her hair chopped off.

Two other gang members entered the house posing as postal workers, put scissors to her neck and said they would cut up her baby boy if she did not tell them where the couple kept their money.

Gench, 38, from north London, had admitted his part in the crime as ringleader and getaway driver, but argued his guilty plea had not been taken into account at sentencing.

He was appealing at London's Criminal Appeal Court alongside another gang member, Panagiotis Giannopoulas, 22, of no fixed address, but both were ordered to serve their full sentences.

At Croydon Crown Court on May 25 both had admitted robbery and false imprisonment. Gench, married to Mrs Niyazi's sister, was given 12-and-a-half years in jail and Giannopoulas was given 10 years.

After being told that the appeals had been thrown out, Mr Niyazi, 32, said: "Now I know they have been refused, that's fantastic. I feel like they should have got even longer, most definitely.

"This man who I loved so much has ruined my life.My wife is mentally scarred. When the doorbell rings she starts panicking. The damage done can never be repaired."

He said the family had since sold their house in Wickham Road, but have had three house purchases fall through and are now living in one room of his mum's house in Croydon.

In sentencing the pair,the judge at Croydon Crown Court described the offence as "horrific, calculated, ruthless and cold-bloodedly executed".

The gang-of-four had gone to the house on October 5 last year where two of them, Giannopoulas and Robert Nezha, 23, tricked their way in with Nezha wearing a Parcel Force jacket and carrying a package.

Gench waited in the car while Kosovan Altin Ibrahim waited out-side. Mrs Niyazi was inside with her two-year-old son having just taken his five-year-old brother to school.

The gang fled with £8,500 in cash and a large amount of jewellery. Their car was stopped by police minutes later. Nezha received 11 years in jail and Ibrahim seven after both admitted their part in the crime.

Lord Justice Moses, Mr Justice Elias and Judge Martin Stephens rejected Gench and Giannopoulas's appeal.

Lord Justice Moses said: "Whether full credit was given or not was, in our view, immaterial. The sentence of 12-and-a-half years imprisonment for Gench for setting up this offence was fully justified.

"The sentence on Giannopoulas for entering the house and taking part in the violence visited upon the victim was fully merited. This was the most serious type of robbery in a private house one could imagine."

Sex slave gang jailed for 50 years

AN Albanian crime gang who trafficked women into this country to work as sex slaves has been jailed for more than 50 years today.

The gang of six men and one woman were found guilty by a jury at Manchester Crown Court.

The court heard the gang had worked with criminals currently being investigated by police in Lithuania to target and lure two young women living in rural villages on the false promise of work in a bar or as a cleaner in England.

But after landing on British soil, one woman was told she had been sold to Albert Rama from Enfield in Essex for £4,000 and the other that she had been sold and would be put to work in a Manchester brothel to earn him money.

Today Judge Anthony Ensor branded what they had done, an "evil trade" involving the, "degradation, exploitation and abuse" of young women who were, "naïve, unable to speak the language and without friends in an alien country."

"It is a form of 21st century slavery which is an affront to civilised society," he said.

The court heard both women managed to escape by contacting their families and police in this country.

They have now returned home to the families with the help of police and are now trying to get on with their lives.

Today police welcomed the men's sentence.

Detective Inspector Michael Fraser of Greater Manchester Police said: "Historians tell us that slavery ended 200 years ago, but these convictions highlight that slavery in the form of human trafficking for sexual exploitation is very much prevalent today.

"The suffering that the victims have had to endure is incomprehensible to the vast majority of people. I would like to extend my thanks to them.

"They have been left scarred and emotionally traumatised by their ordeals and have shown great bravery in working with the police and attending court to give evidence in a foreign Country.

"I only hope that they will now be able to rebuild their lives back in Lithuania."

Klenton Ismaili, 28, of Cross Road, Coventry was jailed for nine after being found guilty of two counts of people trafficking and inciting prostitution for gain.

He cousin Vladimir, 32, of Harnall Lane, Coventry was charged with the same offences plus blackmail and false imprisonment.

He disappeared before the trial began but was found guilty and sentenced to 14-years in his absence.

Ndricm Kaci, 27, of Park Avenue, Nuneaton was jailed for nine years for false imprisonment, causing or inciting prostitution for gain and trafficking; Sajmir Hysa, 25, is to be sentenced later today after pleading guilty to false imprisonment, controlling prostitution for gain and trafficking.

He is already in jail for a string of armed robberies.

Ilir Eezi, 35, of Wareham Street, Crumpsall was jailed for eight years After being found guilty of false imprisonment, trafficking and causing or inciting prostitution for gain.

Albert Rama, 24, of Cracknell Close, Enfield, Essex was jailed for 11 years for trafficking, inciting prostitution and two counts of rape.

The woman gang-member from Coventry was jailed for three years after being found guilty of two counts of people trafficking and causing or inciting prostitution for gain.

The judge gave her a more lenient sentence because he said she had once been a victim herself and was under pressure.


187 posted on 12/21/2006 2:02:49 PM PST by joan
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To: joan
Merry Christmas, Joan. Neither this thread nor what I posted was about Albanians. My post was simply poking fun at the absurd lengths so many Serbs will go to deny the reality of their murderous depredations against both their Christian and Muslim neighbors in the Balkans Wars of the 1990s.

However, since you brought up the Albanians, it is true that I and most Americans are grateful for their steadfast support in the War on Terror--troops in both Afghanistan and Iraq since the beginning; here's a photo:

Albanian Commando troops participate in a ceremony at Mother Teresa Airport before leaving for Iraq. Parliament has approved increasing the number of soldiers in Iraq. [Gent Shkullaku]

188 posted on 12/21/2006 2:18:12 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
You posted a piece which demonized the Serbs, had a lot of lies, and promotes collective punishment and brainwashing people into believing deceitful propaganda about themselves.

A KLA commander testified last month, that the KLA did order Albanians to leave after NATO started bombing. He said just before the KLA was to pull out, after NATO started bombing, he ordered the people to leave, but sometimes they chose not too.

That's something the writer of your piece is ignorant of - the KLA ordering out the villagers.

Additionally a German journalist, of military background, who knew KLA commanders, said they had priority lists of villages to be evacuated 2 months before the bombing started. And indeed, these very villages were evacuated at the start of the bombing.

189 posted on 12/21/2006 2:34:57 PM PST by joan
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To: joan

Yep, Joan--that's it all right. The Albanians ethnically cleansed themselves out of Kosovo just to make the Serbs look bad! Thank you for reinforcing the point of post # 186 above.


190 posted on 12/21/2006 2:48:44 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf

Why did they leave only after NATO bombing?


191 posted on 12/21/2006 2:58:04 PM PST by joan
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To: joan
Why did they leave only after NATO bombing?

Because the Serbs didn't start pushing them across the border into Macedonia and Albania until NATO started bombing.

Duh.

Same stupid arguments forever.

192 posted on 12/21/2006 3:33:48 PM PST by Hoplite
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To: Red6

STILL no answer , Red6

I'll repeat the question , just for you.

( You haven't answered .

When your "Serb killing" heroes , Muhammed Atta , Bin Laden , Zawahiri , et al , redesigned the NY skyline on 9 11 did you cheer ( after all , your heroes were murdering more Infidels ) or weep ( this time the Infidels weren't Serbs but U.S. citizens )?

Tough call? )

My. It really is a tough call for you .

And why are you STILL unable to condemn your SS hero ? The Germans are ashamed of what the SS did in the Balkans . Why aren't you ashamed of your hero ?


193 posted on 12/21/2006 6:32:40 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Red6

Priceless , Red6 , simply priceless .

You claim to be a US soldier yet you defend Al Qaeda . Do your buddies in the army know of this ?

I guess it explains why Bin Laden is still running round , free as a......erm......an Islamist terrorist .

Talk about bizarre .

And you can't even condemn Izetbegovich's relationship with either TWRA or Bin Laden .

Welcome to the bizzaro world of Red6 .

It's even better than you thinking you're an expert because you dredged up some quote from Wikipedia . Wiki "oh my God" pedia .

Do keep on posting , the Christmas re runs don't touch your posts for sheer entertainment value .


194 posted on 12/21/2006 8:20:51 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: Hoplite

Hey , glorious and wise Hoplite , you've yet to tell us why you rave so much over Dr. Balls research . Pray tell , oh wise one .


195 posted on 12/21/2006 8:23:52 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: mark502inf

The Albanian head of state , Berisha , is the same guy who invited the EIJ into Albania . To this day , at the trials in Egypt , the EIJ are known as "the Albanian Returnees " .

Guess who was a member of the EIJ?

a) Mickey Mouse
b) Donald Duck
c) Hello Kitty
d) Al Zawahiri , the Al Qaeda number two and definitely the brains behind the terror . He convinced Bin Laden to strike at the US .

There , I made it real simple .


196 posted on 12/21/2006 8:31:28 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: mark502inf

ALMOST correct , Mark Mark , almost . It was in fact "A KLA commander" , not Joan , who testified under oath that the KLA ordered out ethnic Albanians from Kosovo .

A KLA commander .

You were almost there , Marky Mark . Well done , and keep on trying . There's a boy , I'm sure Mumsie is impressed .



197 posted on 12/21/2006 8:45:41 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: joan

Joan . Marky Mark thinks you're a KLA commander .

That's up there with Red Adare's posts .

I can see it now . Las Vegas . And a new comedy double act takes the Strip by storm . Laugh along with Mark and Red .

Who said that double acts were a thing of the past .


198 posted on 12/21/2006 8:59:16 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: ichabod1

Your comment to Red6

"I think you're the only person I've seen on here who actually defends what was done to the Serbs."

Not only that , but he can't see , for the life of him , the problem of his hero , Izetbegovic , meeting with Bin laden AND the TWRA ( they were behind the FIRST attempt on the WTC )

Think of him as one half of a very funny double act . A kind of post modernist brand of humour . Irreverent and very ironic .


199 posted on 12/21/2006 9:22:47 PM PST by infidel_pride
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To: infidel_pride
["I'll repeat the question..."]

I tried to get Red6 to answer a few questions in the context of his thesis that Serbia and Nazi Germany are (were) equivalent.

And, all you get is obfuscatory remarks.

For example, when I asked him who's the Serbian counterpart to Heinrich Himmler...I get nothing but elusive contradictory remarks.

So, I'd ask Red6 and Mark (who supports this analogy) to provide the location of the gas chambers and crematoriums in Bosnia.
200 posted on 12/21/2006 9:35:24 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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