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U.S.: DISMAY AT ARREST OF ETHNIC SERBS
http://www.adnki.com/index_2Level_English.php?cat=Politics&loid=8.0.369696675&par=0 ^

Posted on 12/18/2006 10:58:24 AM PST by kronos77

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To: tgambill
why is it always "believed to be", "thought to be", "could be".

Because their is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, even if your name is Milosovic or Goering. However, the 161 Serbs found guilty of war crimes by a tribunal in the Hague are no longer presumed innocent. So there is no "thought" or "believed" in their case.
51 posted on 12/19/2006 6:44:05 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: DTA
Your former post "You are a soldier and should be familiar with Geneva convention and The Hague Conventions regarding treatment of POWs and civilian forced labor. Working them to death is not an option - this is WAR CRIME. And that is exactly what happened in Penemunde and elsewhere where V2 was developed.
Von Braun was in position to prevent this and he did not. Neither did Rudolph.

Your notion that membership in Nazi party was not criminal act itself goes against The Nuremberg judgement. NSDAP was declared to be a CRIMINAL ORGANISATION.

As of idea that foreknowledge of Pearl Harbour is some kind of conspiracy theory, it shows that your knowledge is at least 50 years behind the published facts."

--

1. Maybe you should attempt to read something about von Braun and not just throw around cliche's.

He was in no capacity capable of stopping anything nor was Rudolf for that matter. Even those FBI records used as proof by one of you fools actually indicate the OPPOSITE to be true of the point you're trying to make.

I suggest you guys read your own link: http://foia.fbi.gov/foiaindex/arudolph.htm lol

--

2. "NSDAP was declared to be a CRIMINAL ORGANISATION. "

Only a handful of NAZI's were prosecuted since one in six German adults were NAZI party members. There were literally 8.5 million members. While the organization was declared a criminal organization, membership did not make one guilty of war crimes. Again, what did Karajan do that constitutes as a war crime?
52 posted on 12/19/2006 6:57:41 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

Only one problem -- they never found the bodies. I think you're the only person I've seen on here who actually defends what was done to the Serbs. We should, as a country, be ashamed and apologize.


53 posted on 12/19/2006 7:01:39 AM PST by ichabod1 (After the attacks of 9/11, profiling Muslims is more like profiling the Klan.)
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To: Red6
According to ICTY's very own team there were 102,000 deaths in Bosnia. proportionaly split per capita between Serbs, Croats and Muslims (both factions).

Yet, out of 161 indicted, the bulk are Serbs. Out of 3 who died in custody ALL are Serbs. Out of those who were allowed to leave ICTY before the trial and being in good health, none are Serbs.

ICTY's brazen claim "BRINGING JUSTICE TO THE FORMER YUGOSLAVIA" is tantamount to Dr Kavorkian bringing health to his patients.

ICTY was created as a political tool with a goal to "punish Serbian agresssion". "Agression" that was invented in political circles.

A court dispensing political tools is not a judicary institution. It is a court, like Hitler's peoples courts and Stalin trials.

54 posted on 12/19/2006 7:06:25 AM PST by DTA (Mr. President., Condy is asleep at the wheel !)
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To: tgambill; Jack Bauer
oil reserves in the Caspian

Paging Jack Bauer. Jack Bauer please pick up the red courtesy phone.

55 posted on 12/19/2006 7:09:31 AM PST by ichabod1 (After the attacks of 9/11, profiling Muslims is more like profiling the Klan.)
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To: DTA

And then we haven't even gotten into the mysterious death of Milosevic.


56 posted on 12/19/2006 7:14:54 AM PST by ichabod1 (After the attacks of 9/11, profiling Muslims is more like profiling the Klan.)
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To: Red6

Red,

http://www.shofar.de/labeling-e.html The PR images of "Serbs as Nazis" became accepted as fact, even though the leaders of supposed "victims" were an Islamic fundamentalist and a Neo-Nazi Holocaust denier!

Clinton saw himself as "FDR", Blair as "Churchill", and the ICTY as "Nurenburg". All those countries that let the Jews down during WWII, wanted to prove that "genocide would not be tolerated" this time -- even if no genocide was taking place in the Balkans and the "defenseless victims" were "anything but that" Muslims:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1753444/posts

http://www.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91134-bosnia_p3705,00.html

The ICTY is a kangaroo court where they make up "laws" as they prosecute, and not before -- they base these "laws" around what sort of case that they think that they can make against a indictee after the fact, not before. It's so bad that even the US will not allow it's citizens to be governed by a "World Court". The purpose of these UN Courts are nothing more than to justify writing history from the victors point of view. The people involved in prosecuting this are not heroes, they are narcisstic villains.

Our involvement in Balkan politics has yielded nothing for us except embarassment (we don't accept a World Court to prosecute us, but we expect you little countries to agree to it!) and grief (we gave al Qaeda a new base in Europe) -- we got our "thanks" for saving Muslims on 9/11.

The whole situation is a sick farce.


57 posted on 12/19/2006 7:18:31 AM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Red6
>>>>>>>Because their is the presumption of innocence until proven guilty, even if your name is Milosovic or Goering. However, the 161 Serbs found guilty of war crimes by a tribunal in the Hague are no longer presumed innocent. So there is no "thought" or "believed" in their case.<<<<

Again, I am scratching my head. In your own post #50, you cite ""As of March 16, 2006, the ICTY had indicted 161 persons. Only six of these remained "at large". The cases against 85 of the indicted had been concluded: 43 were found guilty, 8 acquitted, 25 had their indictments withdrawn, and six had died - 3 of these in custody, 3 while on parole. Four cases had been sent to national courts for trial. 15 of those convicted had completed their sentences and been released by March 2006."

It seems that you can not differentiate between 161 indicted and 161 convicted. You can not even figure out that 161 indicted Serbs, Croats, Muslims and Albanians does not constitute "161 Serbs found guilty of war crimes"

It only shows that either you are clutching for a straw, perhaps to convince yourself of something you know too well not to be true, or trying to fool us like a kid caught with a hand in a cookie jar.

58 posted on 12/19/2006 7:21:30 AM PST by DTA (Mr. President., Condy is asleep at the wheel !)
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To: Red6

true.....In the years I was there, it seemed that nothing was definite and when you thought you had it figured out, it always had a twist to the drama.....that is the Balkans. In many cases, Serbs would help Albanians steal Serb cows or tractors.....it was somewhat confusing at times.


59 posted on 12/19/2006 7:32:56 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: DTA
You're right, 161 were not convicted.

No, I know the difference, but you want to DENY what happened and play semantical games with war crimes. 43 were found guilty.

I'm waiting in suspense to see what sort of fallacy you'll use in your next argument.
60 posted on 12/19/2006 7:33:03 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Bokababe

:)) the Serb military made fools of Clarks follies....you should read about how they fooled them.


61 posted on 12/19/2006 7:36:11 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: Bokababe

The whole situation is designed to provoke Russia into a third world war in the end...and to gain access to the Caspian oil reserves.....and finally just another objective for the "insiders"...


62 posted on 12/19/2006 7:40:01 AM PST by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: ikka
Don't think it ended there with the Clinton's, if Hillary gets elected Pres, we will need to get prayer rugs. Amen.
63 posted on 12/19/2006 7:46:00 AM PST by gakrak ("A wise man's heart is his right hand, But a fool's heart is at his left" Eccl 10:2)
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To: Red6
>>>>>...but you want to DENY what happened and play semantical games with war crimes. 43 were found guilty. I'm waiting in suspense to see what sort of fallacy you'll use in your next argument.<<<<<<

That is called projection in psychology. You accuse me of something I am not doing, but what you are doing. I do not deny that some Serbs have committed war crimes.

However, you attempt to hide that others in Balkan civil war have commited crimes as well, but the bulk of them were not convicted. Oric is prime example.

64 posted on 12/19/2006 7:49:25 AM PST by DTA (Mr. President., Condy is asleep at the wheel !)
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To: Bokababe
"we don't accept a World Court to prosecute us, but we expect you little countries to agree to it"

We have a justice system and apply the UCMJ to our troops. If no outside force had stepped in, no NAZI and no Serb war crimes would have gotten prosecuted by anyone. To some degree you're right. Many of these countries are not ruled by laws but regimes or a sort of "mob rule". In those cases a court like the Hague is very well suited to do what these nations are not willing to do on their own, apply some resemblance of law where there is none.

In Iraq today, some Sunni surly also thinks Iraq's courts are a kangaroo justice system. But just like our nationalistic thinking Serbs in this forum, they are blinded by their own personal convictions. Saddam and many others are war criminals. They are war criminals by international law. http://www.un.org/law

In the US DoD the service member is is subjected to a code of justice that by far exceeds any international court system. The Hague will never sentence someone to death, which is possible under the UCMJ. The DoD investigates itself internally and prosecutes people for crimes even though they could easily have covered things up.

Example: The case of CPT Maynulet at Wiesbaden Germany in 2005. The DoD could have easily kept a lid on this, but it was a service member (Chief Warrant Officer) who turned the CPT in after review of a drone tape. The initial evidence was a drone tape which only the DoD had in its possession (No one knew). However, CID immediately initiated an investigation and began to dig deeper into the issue. The command immediately went public with the information. They eventually built a case against him and today he is a convicted felon, FBI registered. The behavior of the DoD is in stark contrast to many here who attempt to "rationalize" or through "polemics" attempt to wish away behavior that is illegal and immoral.

There is no doubt that a nation like Great Britain, Germany or the US will go after their own service members if they do wrong. There are numerous such cases from Afghanistan, Iraq, Balkans, Somalia....etc. The Canadian para unit in another example, and several service members got in some very hot water for some of the actions in Somalia. But they policed themselves. However, Serbia was not going to police itself. So yes, there is a double standard. So what?
65 posted on 12/19/2006 8:06:22 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: tgambill

""""The whole situation is designed to provoke Russia into a third world war in the end...and to gain access to the Caspian oil reserves.....and finally just another objective for the "insiders"...""""" You wrote

The intervention in the Balkans was about the oil! ROFLMAO

You guys are a clown show! lol


66 posted on 12/19/2006 8:08:29 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6
>>>>>>>However, Serbia was not going to police itself. So yes, there is a double standard. So what?<<<<<<

Even under Milosevic officers and soldiers who commited crimes in Kosovo were prosecuted and convicted. You have no clue.

However, the same can not be said of USAF pilot who deliberately striked passenger train.

or pilot who deliberately dropped cluster bombs on a busy market place.

67 posted on 12/19/2006 8:32:23 AM PST by DTA (Mr. President., Condy is asleep at the wheel !)
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To: Red6
NATO directly bombed civilians - aimed at them in places from from Kosovo and with no military around - and this was all on behalf of the KLA which was composed of murderous Muslims.


68 posted on 12/19/2006 8:42:17 AM PST by joan
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To: kronos77

Seems to me that the Serbs one of only a few people that recognize the danger of Islam and are willing to fight against it.


69 posted on 12/19/2006 8:43:20 AM PST by bimbo
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To: kronos77
"These cases demonstrate our resolve to identify and prosecute those who enter the US under false pretences," said deputy attorney general Paul McNulty.

Paul McNulty must have winked, and had his fingers crossed when he said that. Maybe he just forgot to except the Mexican illegals.

70 posted on 12/19/2006 8:58:10 AM PST by bimbo
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To: bimbo
>>>>>>Seems to me that the Serbs one of only a few people that recognize the danger of Islam and are willing to fight against it.>>>>>

Four hundred years under savage Muslim rule made every Serb aware of "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

On a level field, Serbs can fight Islamists and win, but Serbs can not fight U.S. who support Islamists and win. Sadly but true, U.S. is aligned with Islamists and islamic terrorists in the Balkans.

71 posted on 12/19/2006 9:05:06 AM PST by DTA (Mr. President., Condy is asleep at the wheel !)
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To: Red6
"If no outside force had stepped in, no NAZI and no Serb war crimes would have gotten prosecuted by anyone"

Once again, you are equating the Serbs with the Nazis -- just as the PR whores that the Croats, Bosnian Muslims and Kosovo Albanians hired said very specifically was their "accomplishment". There were no "ovens" in Bosnia, there were no "rape camps" in Bosnia, there was a civil war between those who wanted to leave Yugoslavia (Bosnian Muslims) in Bosnia and those who wished to stay in Yugoslavia -- primarily Serbs, but also Naser Oric's followers --Oric was the most popularly elected Muslim in Bosnia at the time. There were war crimes on all sides, but the Serbs were the only ones to admit that they weren't angels. The ICTY has prosecuted primarily Serbs and only a few token Muslims and Croats, in spite of the fact that there is even video of the beheadins of Serbs!

No one here is "a joke", Red. If you want to salivate over the prosecution of "Serbs as Nazis" and "Bosnian Muslims as Jews" just like some Ruder-Finn trained Pavlovian dog, then that's your choice-- meanwhile, Serbs are no threat to us Americans and the very Bosnian (& Albanian) Muslims who we helped are now al Qaeda sponsors. The Bosnian and Albanian Muslims were never "the Jews", and the worst of them were and are a blood-thristy bunch of Islamic jihadists bent on taking, not only Serbs heads, but yours and mine, as well.

Listening to you and your ilk go on about the prosecution of "the big bad Serbs" and what they did to " the poor Bosnian & Kosovo Muslims" is like listening to Nero fiddle while Rome burned.

72 posted on 12/19/2006 9:05:41 AM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe
"but also Naser Oric's followers"

You mean Fikret Abdic's followers here.

73 posted on 12/19/2006 9:20:06 AM PST by joan
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To: joan
1. So the pictures are from what and when and where? Bad pictures = bad NATO? More arguments based on BS.

2. In WWII we bombed the snot out of Germany. Thousands died. Was that wrong? Again, you are playing a game where you intentionally make the water murky to make some bogus point.

Your arguments are all the same. Emotional, lack of facts, speculative, full of fallacies....... loys of polemics. But no substance. Serbia was told to stop, they were told to stop again and again and again. They didn't. The UN was impotent and eventually upon request of several NATO countries (i.e. Germany and Great Britain) NATO became involved. Serbia after the break up of YU had the military might. They were the aggressor, they were the ones calling the shots. The Serbs complaining they were bombed is like the a German whining about Dresden. The Serbs created a mess. Germany alone had roughly 250,000 refugees in their country, maybe you'll deny that too?

http://www.emz-berlin.de/projekte_e/pj2/pj2_1.htm (From 1999 alone)

Ethnic group Number per cent

Bosnia 27881 70
Croatia 5974 15
Serbia 1991 5
Other (esp. Roma) 3983 10
Total 39829 100

There is a significant difference between intentionally murdering thousands, forced evicions, targeting civilians all in the deliberate attempt to destroy a group of people. Such activity is usually refered to as genocide. Do you know who else had ambitions to create "Lebensraum" for his people? Serbia planned and deliberately wanted to push people from their homeland to expand their national territory. You're no different than the German today complaining that they were bombed in WWII.
74 posted on 12/19/2006 9:23:33 AM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6
People sitting out the war - invited and given plane rides to Germany and Austria - and arriving with no scratches, injuries, signs of torture or malnourishment at all.

Many had to leave simply because the war created chaos and economic devastation - only some - the politically correct - were given most help and opportunity to sit out the war and receive housing, aid, schooling, jobs.

The ones who had to stay and endure the wars or lived in refugee camps for years (the Serbs) had it the worst.

Serbs had 250,000 refugees driven from Croatia in just 3 days. (They had hundreds of thousands more driven from their homes in Bosnia during the war - but they were ALLOWED to come to Germany in those numbers.) They didn't have time to pack their bags, get on an airplane and being given apartments and homes and all sorts of help from host countries.

75 posted on 12/19/2006 9:30:55 AM PST by joan
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"were ALLOWED" Should be "were NOT ALLOWED".

The Serbs had more refugees and displaced people but weren't accepted in Germany, Austria, the U.S. etc in those numbers. They had it harder to get out, and only in smaller batches - many thousands are still languishing in refugee camps - some for as many as 15 years (since 1991) - and many of these are elderly people.

The people in this story only were accepted years later - and it might have been a trap, as DTA said. The U.S. waiting until they settled, had their kids in school, jobs and some money saved up - now all their property is probably going to be taken or liquidated to pay for lawyers and court costs.

76 posted on 12/19/2006 9:35:48 AM PST by joan
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To: Red6
This report from 2005, Red, says that Serbia had the largest number of refugees in Europe. It also states that 10 years before (1995) they had 500,000 (half million). That WAY eclipses your relatively small 28,000 figure for Bosnian Muslims in Germany.

Serbia-Montenegro remains European country with largest number of refugees

Serbia-Montenegro has remained the European country with the most refugees, the UN refugee agency said Monday.

Although the number of refugees has diminished dramatically, the issue of refugees remains a major problem in Serbia-Montenegro, the Belgrade office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) said in a statement to mark World Refugee Day, which falls on Monday.

Ten years ago, there were half a million refugees in Serbia- Montenegro, and currently the population of registered refugees is near 150,000, the statement said.

It said the Sarajevo declaration should be honored. According to the declaration, Serbia-Montenegro, Croatia and Bosnia- Herzegovina should resolve the problem of refugees in their respective countries by the end of 2006.

Serbian Commissioner for Refugees Dragisa Dabetic has said that Serbia would try to resolve the problem of refugees mostly through the process of their integration into the local environment or their returning to their homes in Croatia or Bosnia-Herzegovina.

77 posted on 12/19/2006 9:41:25 AM PST by joan
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To: Red6
Angry Serb chick dogpile on Red6!!!

(walks away, laughing...)

78 posted on 12/19/2006 9:56:39 AM PST by Hoplite
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To: joan
You mean Fikret Abdic's followers here.

God yes! What was I thinking???!!!!

79 posted on 12/19/2006 10:31:25 AM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Red6
>>>>>>> There is a significant difference between intentionally murdering thousands, forced evicions, targeting civilians all in the deliberate attempt to destroy a group of people. Such activity is usually refered to as genocide. Do you know who else had ambitions to create "Lebensraum" for his people? Serbia planned and deliberately wanted to push people from their homeland to expand their national territory. You're no different than the German today complaining that they were bombed in WWII.<<<<

Serbia wanted to extend lebensraum? WTH you are talking about? .

If you compare ethnic makeup of Yugoslavia 1941 (prior Hitler), 1945(after), 1991(prior breakup) and today, it is evident that the Serbs were pushed out from their homeland in Croatia, Bosnia and occupied Serbian province of Kosovo.

Your comparrison of Serbs with Nazis is the real problem of your posts - Nazi revisionism.

One more thing. During WWII, USAAF bombed Germany but suffered horrible casualty of 50%. It was not free turkey shooting of civilians. It was accepted cost of waging war.

In 1999, 19 NATO countries gang raped Serbia and murdered her citizens (not only Serbs) without any real riskto flight crews. NATO was not waging war, it was "humanitarian intervention"

Unlike allied command in WWII, NATO did not admit that citizens of Serbian cities are the prinicipal target although they were, as numbers show (5000+ killed and maimed civilians, 1000 killed and maimed soldiers, 14 tanks destroyed.)

As I said before, you attempt to falsify history and equate Serbs with Nazis.

80 posted on 12/19/2006 11:23:53 AM PST by DTA (Mr. President., Condy is asleep at the wheel !)
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To: gakrak
....if Hillary gets elected Pres, we will need to get prayer rugs.

Yeah. Either prayer rugs, or the special clothes they will make dhimmis wear!!!!

81 posted on 12/19/2006 1:18:30 PM PST by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: ikka

And one of Bushes worst was prosocuting Serbs for killing mislims he should have given them medals.


82 posted on 12/19/2006 1:33:47 PM PST by Unicorn (Too many wimps around.)
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

The highest reliable number I've seen is ~102,000. It includes everyone, from all three sides; civilian and military casualties.


83 posted on 12/19/2006 2:52:49 PM PST by Banat (DEO ?? REGI ?? PATRI?? | http://degaullist.wordpress.com)
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To: Red6
["What part of he was “CONVICTED” is hard for you to understand?...Even when I attempts to sarcastically get my point across to you it goes right over your head!"]

No Red6, I think maybe my comment went over your head.

Let me try it this way. Can you explain to me why Carla del Ponte is appealing the TWO year sentence given to Oric by the international court? Remember, the prosecution asked that Oric get eighteen years.

I hope I'm clear now (sigh).
84 posted on 12/19/2006 3:06:29 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: Red6

You know, a$$hole, I am sick of your equating the Serbs with the Nazi scum. I find your insinuations disgusting and way out of line. At first I thought you were misinformed and then that you're slightly retarded. Now I am pretty sure you're a malicious, hateful cretin. Rest assured, the Admin will be notified.


85 posted on 12/19/2006 3:11:32 PM PST by Banat (DEO ?? REGI ?? PATRI?? | http://degaullist.wordpress.com)
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To: FNG
Vlad Dracul and Black Jack Pershing have historically proven that there is only one way to deal with islamic facist trash. Maybe these Serbs were just doing some necessary routine cleaning.

It's actually Dracula and the Serbs have suffered enough because of this misrepresented war.
86 posted on 12/19/2006 3:19:12 PM PST by rxgalfl
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic
First "YOU" use him as an example of how none are getting sentenced and how he went free because this is just all made up; and when I PROVE TO YOU, that he was sentenced for CRIMES you now want to redefine what this somehow means. lol

Keep talking
87 posted on 12/19/2006 5:14:59 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6

You'll make an excellent Dhimmi.


88 posted on 12/19/2006 5:38:09 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Banat

The Nazi’s wanted to create "Lebensraum" (Living space) for the uebermenschen. The Serbs wanted to push people out of their home and property for the exact same motive. The Nazi’s operated camps and in a deliberate and systematic fashion, state sponsored, exterminated people they deemed lesser. Serbia in a deliberate and systematic fashion, state sponsored and condoned, fully knowledgeable of its actions did the same thing. From the top down, Serbia like Nazi Germany was in violation of some of the most basic and fundamental concepts of what international law has been about for 400 years, long before any court in the Hague even existed!

The comparisons of Serbia to Nazi Germany are 100% spot on, although no doubt Germany was far worse in magnitude. Maybe that’s why it hurts so badly and you have no argument other than personal attacks.


89 posted on 12/19/2006 5:40:16 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Hoplite; Red6
Seems to me that the Serbs one of only a few people that recognize the danger of Islam and are willing to fight against it.

Which is why the Dhimmis bravely trash the Serbs here on Free Republic. What marvels of intestinal fortitude you are!

90 posted on 12/19/2006 5:41:41 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Red6
The Serbs wanted to push people out of their home and property for the exact same motive.

Completely untrue! Serbia remains the most multi-ethnic nation in the Balkans. The Serbs were fighting against being pushed out of their own homes, as any non-Dhimmi would have done.

91 posted on 12/19/2006 5:43:20 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Red6

["you now want to redefine what this somehow means."]


Nope, I'm not redefining anything. Like I said in my previous post, my (earlier) comment went over your head.

Now, why don't you answer my question: Can you explain to me why Carla del Ponte is appealing the TWO year sentence given to Oric by the international court? Remember, the prosecution asked that Oric get eighteen years.


92 posted on 12/19/2006 6:28:13 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: FormerLib

After the break up of YU, the Serbs had the tanks. They had the MIGs. They had the artillery, the air defense, the officers.......

They were the aggressors; they didn't stop even after they were warned repeatedly because they were creating an international humanitarian disaster with their actions. Truth is, what finally got the Europeans to push for NATO involvement was no higher moral cause, but rather a refugee crisis and conflict which showed signs of spreading into other areas.

Today, some, in order to feel better about themselves, or blinded by pure super nationalistic fervor (Another similarity with the Nazi) want to rewrite history in a way that is more palatable to them. It was the Serbs that were calling the shots. Saying the Serbs are the victims is like saying Germany was attacked by Poland in WWII (Another similarity "The false rationalization”) and that the Germans were the victims.

You’re attempting to turn the world on its head. It won’t work. Too many people saw first hand what happened. The Germans, Italians, Brits, no one is arguing with you today since this issue is largely surpassed by more pressing stories, but within the political establishment, ALL know who the culprit was. I was in Germany at the time of the conflict in the Balkans with the DoD. I personally can remember the refugee camps the Germans set up to deal with the chaos created by the “Serbs”. Today you deny it happened and even want to portray Serbia as the victim. Sorry, won’t happen.

No matter how many fake NATO websites you create that spew Serb propaganda, from the court in the Hague, to the international political establishment, you have branded yourselves with something on par with the Nazi. Your denial of what happened does not help you. It makes you look only worse. Abu Gharib happened. Even Rumsfeld whom I admire admits to what happened there. In interviews he will openly say that this was probably one of the low points in his career, and he had in reality nothing to do with it! I served in Iraq and support the mission there 100%. But I will not deny that at Abu Gharib Iraqi’s were abused. If you as a people want to get any respect, then you must take responsibility for the mess you made, not deny it. Denying it only makes you look like the Nazi war criminal who also denied it after the war. It’s like Clinton who said “I didn’t inhale” or “I did not have sex with that woman”. After the DNA on that dress, several witnesses, etc, no matter what he says, the facts speak for themselves. Likewise, the events surrounding the Balkan intervention are well documented.

You had UN observers, EU representatives, NATO soldiers from various countries…….etc. Were they all conspiring and collaborating to come up with a fake story? Investigations by the international tribunal, sworn testimony, the international media…… And all you do is deny deny deny and make counter accusations. Kind of like the Holocaust denier, but as we know, you guys don’t like any correlation to the Nazi’s or WWII.

An example: Some time ago I debated with what I am fairly sure was a Serb. He tried telling me about all the US planes that were allegedly shot down during the conflict and how we didn’t score the kills we did. I asked him, “what about the tail numbers which we record on our planes? The HUD tapes? AWACS which is watching and has an international crew?........etc” He just kept denying and denying that we had shot down the MIG29s we did. He was quoting huge losses on our side, which he could not back with any “credible” source. He made an ass of himself.

Likewise, many of the atrocities committed are at this point a matter of fact. At this point, you have 48 senior Serb figures (political and military) who have served time for crimes you say never happened. But we all know, the prisons are full of innocent people; just ask any one of them.


93 posted on 12/19/2006 7:04:44 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6
Serbia is the mostly ethnicly diverse country in the Balkans. You're pathetic arguments do nothing to address this fact. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

You're embarassing yourself all over this thread. It would probably be best for yourself, and everyone else, if you just stayed away from the BALKANS threads. Your time would be better spent doing some research instead of this display of crapping in public you're performing here. Reading your posts on this subject is like listening to a little kid with a first grade education give a lecture on Italian Neo-Realism cinema after a life filled with eating lead paint chips.

94 posted on 12/19/2006 7:17:52 PM PST by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli will steal your girlfriend.)
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To: getoffmylawn

["You're embarassing yourself (Red6) all over this thread."]

Well said.


95 posted on 12/19/2006 7:21:10 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: getoffmylawn

Lots of facts, great post!


96 posted on 12/19/2006 7:27:41 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: rxgalfl

I think you mean the Serbs are misrepresented as genocidal maniacs, which is really what islamic facists are. All peaceful, civilized cultures have suffered enough by the hands of islamic fascists (some more than others). I was merely making a point that history has shown that extreme measures are needed to deal with nationally organized genocidal psycopathic cultures. Historically retarded revisionist fools refer to the events at Dresden and Hiroshima as "war crimes", but they were absolutely necessary in order to suppress the evil of the axis powers in WWII. Islamic facism is actually worse, in some regards, and must be stopped from gaining any form of viable N.B.C. weapons capability.


97 posted on 12/19/2006 7:28:25 PM PST by FNG
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

Another example: http://www.un.org/icty/glance/hadzihasanovic.htm (I’ll make your case for you)

So obviously in this case, the French, Dutch, and Madagascaran, judges were bought right? They were part of a plot against the Serbs?

You guys are getting old. All you do is deny and make counter accusations, create arguments that are full of conspiracies (We already learned from one of you "experts" that the Balkan crisis was all about the oil! lol) logical fallacies and personal attacks. But no substance, none what so ever.


98 posted on 12/19/2006 7:37:52 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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To: Red6
Let me provide an example (off Balkan issues) to demonstrate your childish antics.

Example: ["Abu Gharib happened. Even Rumsfeld...admits to what happened there...and he had in reality nothing to do with it!"]

There is absolutely no way, at this juncture, that you can prove the statement you made above regarding Secretary Rumsfeld...none whatsoever.

Suggestion: You might want to talk with General Janis Karpinski who was there.
99 posted on 12/19/2006 7:54:08 PM PST by LjubivojeRadosavljevic
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To: LjubivojeRadosavljevic

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2412270.php

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/16202189.htm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/08/AR2006120801725.html

I give up. You win.


100 posted on 12/19/2006 8:07:56 PM PST by Red6 (Weird thoughts -)
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