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Cheaper, faster path led to failure [ Big Dig ]
Boston Globe ^ | December 24, 2006 | Scott Allen and Sean P. Murphy

Posted on 12/24/2006 1:56:20 AM PST by SunkenCiv

Construction engineer John Tsikouras suspected that the salesmen were not telling him the whole story. The men from Newman Associates, a bolt distribution company, approached him in August 1999 and said they wanted his professional advice about a tunnel ceiling that was part of Boston's Big Dig. But Tsikouras said their questions seemed intended to get the Rhode Island engineer's approval rather than his expertise.

Would it be safe to hang the concrete ceiling from 7.5-inch-long bolts? No, Tsikouras said. What if the bolts were 5 inches long instead? "I can ask my mother that one," he replied: Even less safe, obviously. Then, the firm that designed the ceiling sent word through Newman that the ceiling would be far lighter than Tsikouras estimated. Would the bolts be strong enough then? Yes, Tsikouras replied, after making more calculations, "the bolts passed with flying colors."

(Excerpt) Read more at boston.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; US: Massachusetts; US: Rhode Island
KEYWORDS: 2008; bigdig; chappykennedy; crime; dui; gayfrank; hanoikerry; kennedyshole; kerryshole; mittromney; perjury; treason
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To: mamelukesabre

"the length of the bolt should not make any difference as far as i can tell."

So then size doesn't matter.


21 posted on 12/24/2006 4:39:18 AM PST by toddlintown (Six bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: HisKingdomWillAbolishSinDeath

It is scary that with all the money spent on this, that somebody would feel the need to cut costs. That's Billion with a B, folks.


22 posted on 12/24/2006 4:42:00 AM PST by Bernard ("Be thankful we're not getting all the government we're paying for." Will Rogers)
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To: SunkenCiv; Fierce Allegiance; raccoonradio
Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
23 posted on 12/24/2006 5:04:44 AM PST by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: mamelukesabre

I do work at a Department of transportation (Mississippi). That looks like a job a District Maintenance paint-striping crew would do. I have had all kinds of problems with contractors, and my share of arguments and Mexican standoffs with them, but even the worst private contractor is far better at road-building than your average Highway Department crew.


24 posted on 12/24/2006 5:10:44 AM PST by MuttTheHoople
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To: SunkenCiv
The brains and talent visible in this thread are AMAZING!! I doubt that anyone at DU would even understand the issues that several of you have raised. But, of course, we conservatives are too dumb to get the subtle nuances of John Kerry's use of English.

I am so proud to be a member of this forum!

25 posted on 12/24/2006 5:12:35 AM PST by Hardastarboard (Hey! What happened to my tagline?)
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To: JohnLongIsland
this is the reason hyannis orcinus wins every election by 85%

I like that. Thanks for the new nickname.
26 posted on 12/24/2006 5:13:03 AM PST by xmission
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To: Mark was here

Would you say that one and a half times the bolt diameter would suffice for embedment in concrete with epoxy bonding?

Of couse not. Obviously, bolt length is a factor in such a design.


27 posted on 12/24/2006 5:14:15 AM PST by gas0linealley
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To: gas0linealley
Of couse not. Obviously, bolt length is a factor in such a design.

All the stress that the bolt is holding has to go thru the first "length" of 1.5 * dia. this is comparable to the weakest link in a chain. If the first length can not do the job, you have the wrong bolt. It really does not matter if the bolt was one mile long.

28 posted on 12/24/2006 5:33:25 AM PST by Mark was here (How can they be called "Homeless" if their home is a field?.)
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To: SunkenCiv

"Cheaper, faster path led to failure [ Big Dig ]"

It seems like every single new weapon system program manager that shows up at the pentagon has memorized the mantra "Better, Faster, Cheaper." And we all know how famously some of those programs have succeeded.

One wag in my office has a triangle on his whiteboard with each side labelled better, faster, and cheaper. His tagline says" You can pick any two sides; some programs give you only one."

You can do it right, or you can do it over.

TC


29 posted on 12/24/2006 5:49:49 AM PST by Pentagon Leatherneck
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To: John Valentine
This whole idea gives me serious pucker.

LOL... the original explanation of the bolting apparatus they gave to the press sounded like it was for the absurdity of 'asthetics'. But this proves once again that careers... and money... beat out a human life every time.

30 posted on 12/24/2006 5:51:11 AM PST by johnny7 ("We took a hell of a beating." -'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell)
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To: SunkenCiv
First thread...

Section of ceiling tumbles in tunnel (Boston Big Dig I-90/I-93, One Dead)

There are people at all three levels, local, state and federal, who need to be held to account for this.

31 posted on 12/24/2006 6:01:17 AM PST by mewzilla (Property must be secured or liberty cannot exist. John Adams)
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: Wiseghy

US taxpayers should get a refund from the State of Massasschusetts. How much did the federal guvment spend on this thing, Kennedy's Hole, $15 billion?


33 posted on 12/24/2006 6:04:16 AM PST by pleikumud
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To: Mark was here

According to your reasoning then, a one inch bolt embedded one and one half inches into concrete would be capable of holding the full tensile strength of the bolt.

Were you on the Big Dig design team?


34 posted on 12/24/2006 6:04:40 AM PST by gas0linealley
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To: Lurker
EXACTLY.
The ONLY problem with the Big Pig's Dig, is that there was NOT ENOUGH MONEY spent on it.
BUT,...a BIG, But (as in Teddy Kennedy's BIG BUTT) if it is now to be placed in the condition that everyone hopes and dreams for, a little MORE TAXPAYER'S GELT, can surely fix it.
No? **NO**?
You don't believe that?
Has the great Commonwealth ever lied to you before,.....?
35 posted on 12/24/2006 6:07:27 AM PST by Gideon Reader (Time for: Weapons Cleaning, mag resting, and a little Stan Getz to cool out with.)
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To: mamelukesabre

"I would have specified steel embedments in the concrete above...and steel embedments in the concrete panels and then specified that a certified welder weld the two together in the field."

How much field experience do you have?


36 posted on 12/24/2006 6:08:56 AM PST by gas0linealley
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To: John Valentine

This system has been used for years to anchor heavy equipment to FLOORS where there is relatively little tensile load on the joint and where you are assured that the epoxy is well contained while it sets up.
This would probably be the worst application for this type of a fastener in that a full bond could not be assured particularly given the field installation methods.
I cannot say what the design specification was in this application, but I would not feel comfortable with less than a 5X margin of safety (but then my supervisors have always deemed me to be conservative). Should one of them fail, the adjacent fasteners must take up the load. But given your description of the panel, it is more likely that several of the fasteners failed simultaneously over a period of time. I.e., a poorly designed application for a marginally installed product.


37 posted on 12/24/2006 6:13:21 AM PST by herzo
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To: Mark was here

The failure was undoubtedly NOT in the bolt, rather in the epoxy attachment to the concrete. The 1.5X rule is valid for a threaded fastener into similar materials (steel into steel), but in this application, it does not apply.


38 posted on 12/24/2006 6:17:12 AM PST by herzo
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To: gas0linealley
1.5X bolt diameter is only used for thread engagement in similar materials (usually steel). Elongation negates any benefit in engagement beyond 1.5X.

You really need much more than 1.5X engagement when using epoxy to secure the fastener, and the bonding operation is very depentent on the quality of the application (operator dependent). Most critical applications require extensive validation testing to assure the bond process is peformed properly.

39 posted on 12/24/2006 6:30:06 AM PST by caltaxed
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To: gas0linealley
According to your reasoning then, a one inch bolt embedded one and one half inches into concrete would be capable of holding the full tensile strength of the bolt.

Do you comprehend how a chain is as strong as it's weakest link?

Have you ever thought about why nuts are only so thick? Bolts do their work in the first threads, once you are in the proper amount, you do not gain any more strength.

And to answer your stupid question, no I do not have anything to do with the Big Dig, except pay taxes.

40 posted on 12/24/2006 6:30:36 AM PST by Mark was here (How can they be called "Homeless" if their home is a field?.)
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