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Top 10 Reasons To Swamp U.S.
ProjectUSA ^ | 2004

Posted on 12/24/2006 12:10:18 PM PST by A. Pole

 

Among supporters of a more modern and moderate immigration policy, there is general agreement that the United States will eventually reduce legal immigration to traditional, sustainable levels and will end illegal immigration. We believe this because our arguments are correct, most people agree with us, and current policy is simply too opposed to everything we know about human nature.

Nevertheless, achieving our goal will be difficult because we immigration realists are fighting against a powerful array of meaningless cliches and unjustified assumptions that seem to have sunk deep into the collective American consciousness.

Here is our top ten list of these damaging myths and false assumptions, with our responses:

 

Reason number ten: there is plenty of room in the country for lots more people

Our response:

There is plenty of room in Yosemite National Park for a whole slew of Wal-Marts and strip malls. But is that an argument for putting them there?

Last year, the United States grew at a faster rate than China. Yet, between 1998 and 1999, Wyoming lost population. In other words, overcrowding is not a function of overall population density of the country.

In China, too, there are vast areas that are very sparsely populated. Yet the Chinese are taking extreme measures to reduce their very serious overpopulation problem. No one in China would think very much of the argument that there is no overpopulation problem in China because Xinjiang province has lots of room.

As with any question of public policy, the deciding factor should be: Is it good for the country?

In almost every major city in America, over-immigration has taken its toll, in the form of increased traffic and pollution, higher crime rates, over-crowded schools, financially exhausted hospitals and medical centers--and the list goes on. Every major environmental group is fighting the specter of urban sprawl. Does it sound like we need more people?

Given that it takes less than four years for the world to add another United States in population (net), it can be safely assumed that if we do not put the brakes on, we will end up in the same overcrowded boat out of which China is trying so desperately to climb.

Regardless of the amount of physical space we appear to have, it cannot ultimately be good for our country to continue our present reckless immigration policies.

 

Reason number nine: immigration is good for the economy

Our response:

Between the years 1925 and 1965, immigration to the United States was so low, the number of immigrants in the United States actually decreased. Yet during that time we Americans built the richest country the world has ever seen.

We can be rich without an endless flood of mass immigration.

But the debate continues to rage as to the various economic advantages and disadvantages of immigration.

But our basic position on the economic question is this:

1. If mass immigration is bad for the economy, we are merely stupid.

2. If mass immigration is good for the economy, then we are both stupid and base: We are saddling future generations with an overcrowded, polluted urban sprawl-land filled with balkanized factions  thus proving ourselves too stupid to preserve our heritage and country and so base we are willing to sell it for a buck.

[Combined from other version:]

It's true that immigration grows the economy, but so what? If a half billion Chinese were to move from China to the United States tomorrow, the U.S. economy would grow (leaving aside the political upheaval) and China's would shrink, but is that a good thing necessarily? Lawrence Kudlow seems to think so.

Compare the total economic output of the countries listed in the chart at the right—from tiny Luxembourg, with an economic aggregate of just $27.3 billion, to the giant of the world, the United States, with $11.75 trillion.

U.S. Chamber of Commerce View

These are the same countries in the same order, except this time, we've calculated in the size of the population. When you look at it like that—in terms of total economic output per person—it tells a far different story.

Honest view

Little Luxembourg doesn't look so little anymore, Denmark and Nigeria are not the equals the first chart seemed to indicate, the U.S. is no longer the giant of the world, and while immigration fanatics like George W. Bush like to describe Mexican immigrants as fleeing starvation, that hardly appears to be the case.

So the next time Tamar Jacoby comes by and starts stroking your arm and cooing in your ear about how our economy needs immigration to grow, call her on her fraud: whose economy?

It's too bad Alan Greenspan wasn't exposed for the old fraud he is while he was the Fed chairman. When he started mumbling on during some senate testimony about how the United States must open the gates to immigration so we can keep "our" economy growing, it would have been great had we a senator on the committee with the intelligence and character to nail him.

The size of the overall economy is an economic statistic with no value outside its usefulness to frauds like Lawrence Kudlow, Tamar Jacoby, and the editorial board of the Wall Street Journal as a means to hoodwink gullible and short-sighted Americans into acquiescing to the radical transformation of their country through mass immigration.

The economic indicator that matters is the one depicted in the second chart above; no one is emigrating from Luxembourg to Nigeria. Immigration is driving us down in terms of the second chart, yet because a few immigration lawyers and business special interests (and their lobbyists) find mass immigration profitable, the relentless flood of humanity continues unabated.

 

Reason number eight: immigration adds diversity

Our response:

Immigration policy should not be decided on racial or ethnic grounds, or we will end up turning immigration into a tussle between the races.

Furthermore, whatever the benefits of ethnic or racial diversity, we are already one of the most diverse countries in the world. It is not clear we need more of it. (And besides, who decides how much is enough or too little diversity?)

Though we often hear the mantra "Diversity is our strength," polls show that Americans of all ethnic backgrounds are less than convinced.

Almost everyone agrees that balkanization  the deterioration of a population into warring ethnically defined political groups  would be a bad thing.

Yet, even a cursory glance around can not fail to impress upon the observer that, as our country becomes more diverse, it is also becoming more politically balkanized. "Identity politics" is increasing not decreasing.

Why do we continue to pursue a policy that can only intensify this tendency to balkanization?

 

Reason number seven: immigrants just want a better life—saying "no" is mean

Our response:

There are nearly five billion people in the world who live in countries poorer than Mexico. It can safely be assumed that many of those billions—like many Mexicans—would love to come to the United States in search of higher consumption levels.

Some Americans think that would be a great thing. But everybody else thinks it would be a terrible disaster. A 1998 Roper Poll found that only six percent of Americans think we don't have enough people in the country.

Since this is a democracy, subjective questions like this one are best decided by the majority, and since the people have not yet voted the borders out of existence, we have to operate from the position that our country still has them.

One of the characteristics of borders is that it divides the human race into those within the borders and those outside—just like the door to your apartment divides the human race into those within your apartment, and those on the outside. Borders, like doors and locks, are exclusionary by nature.

In the modern age, of course, this seems like a great sin, since a primary modern virtue is "inclusion." We moderns have a difficult time saying "us" and "them."

It goes against our modern sensibilities to say to someone born in Switzerland or Bangladesh, "I'm sorry. You are excluded." To us, it seems "mean."

But it is not mean. It is realistic and necessary and prudent.

Keep in mind one thing: our country is already taking in far more immigrants every year than any other country in the world. This extremely high rate of immigration is causing our nation to undergo massive changes  changes the majority of the people of this country don't even want.

Yet for all the people we are taking in, we are still taking in only a little more than one percent of the births-over-deaths population growth of the world. If we are going to be "compassionate" to all the foreigners of the world and dismiss the best interests of our own people, what about that other 99 percent?

Again, it is not mean to control our borders. It is necessary and realistic.
What is mean is leaving our children a country twice as populated as we found it for no good reason other than that we were too lazy, or too cringing, or too benighted, to defend our borders.

 

Reason number six: immigrants built this country

Our response:

At some point, maybe we should stop "building."

And immigrants didn't build this country anyway. Americans did.

Immigration averaged only 235,000 persons per year prior to the disastrous 1965 Immigration Act. That's only 47 million immigrants over the course of our nation's history. Compared to our current population of nearly 300 million, that's not much. And then, if we add all the people who have lived before in the United States, we are approaching a billion total Americans who live now or who have lived in this country—all of them, or at least most of them, busy "building" it.

 

Reason number five: Advocating a reduction in immigration is racist and xenophobic

Our response:

Yes, there are those who hold their views on immigration for racial reasons—on both sides of the issue. (For every David Duke, there is a Congressman Gutierrez.)

This does not mean, however, that immigration is a racial issue.

And while the immigration issue does attract racists, it is our experience at ProjectUSA that most of these racists are to be found amongst our pro-mass immigration opponents—in particular, among the ethnic-identity pressure groups and politicians.

To those well-meaning but confused people who insist that immigration is a racial issue, we always ask: "Well, then, since you are absolutely certain one's position on immigration is all about race, what are your racial reasons for supporting this current flood?"

This question often causes confusion.

We believe that the confusion arises from our nation's unfortunate muddle-headedness on issues of race and culture. The current dogma of the "multi-cultural" ideology has convinced many Americans that "culture" and "race" are the same things. Just think of the endless paeans to multiculturalism in advertising, political speech, academia, etc: they are always illustrated by a photo of people of different races.

This is dangerous and wrong.

While a black American and a white American might be different colors, they are equally American, i.e., they share the same culture.

Modern "multi-culturalists" are the true racists when they elevate skin color to a place as primary as culture.

If we have racial problems today how will our problems improve with a half a billion people thanks to over-immigration struggling to survive in an overpopulated country?
Shouldn't we first resolve the racial problems we have instead of continuing with an immigration policy that will double our population and risk exacerbating an already increasing tendency in our country toward group identity politics??

Those who fear racial conflict or the rise of fascism should support, as we do, an immigration time-out in order to take a breather, reassess what we are doing, and give the assimilation magic time to work.

 

Reason number four: Immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do

Our response:

Prior to the disastrous immigration act of 1965, there was very little immigration.

In fact, between 1925 and 1965, immigration levels were so low the number of immigrants in the country actually declined. In fact, there was even a period of net emigration out of the United States.

Yet, during that time, Americans invented computers, had a healthy labor movement, initiated the space program that put men on the moon, made great strides in civil rights and environmental legislation, built the largest economy the world has ever seen, and successfully prosecuted WWII against two great powers on two fronts simultaneously. We also got our grass cut, our meat packed. Our children were being watched, and our houses were being cleaned.

The idea that somehow we suddenly can't run a country without an endless supply of foreigners is absurd.

The falsehood repeated endlessly, that immigrants do the jobs Americans won't, is really tantamount to something like this: Imagine the owner of the local McDonald's puts a sign in the window that says: "Dishwasher wanted. $1.00 / hour." Suppose he leaves the sign in the window for a month, but no one comes in to apply for the dishwashing job. "See?" the McDonald's owner might say, "Dishwashing is a job Americans won't do. But there are a billion people in China who work for less than a dollar per hour. I need to import some cheap workers from China (or Bangladesh or Mexico)."

Then he or she will import the worker, undercut American wages, and, as a bonus, stick the taxpayer with the cost of the new worker's health care, of educating his children, and so on.

And politicians will talk about how our economy "depends" on immigrant labor.

A country should do its own work.

 

Reason number three: This is a nation of immigrants

Our response:

If you are discussing immigration with a friend, you are likely to hear him reflexively blurt out the gem: "this is a nation of immigrants." When he does, simply point out to him that eighty-five percent of the residents of the United States were born here.

How could that preponderance of home-grown Americans justify us being called a "nation of immigrants"?

Certainly we are descendants of immigrants (as is everyone in the world), but that is not the same thing as being an immigrant.

Anyway, such a statement is no justification for continued mass immigration. The inference that "We are a nation of immigrants and, therefore, we must not limit immigration" is a classic example of circular argument.

What is says is this: Because we are a nation of immigrants, we have to allow for massive immigration which, in turn, makes us a nation of immigrants. Hence its circularity.

Circular arguments are invalid in the logical sense by virtue of how they are structured and not what do they mean. They lead to faulty (and, therefore, useless) reasoning in which the thesis (the very thing which is to be proved) is used as a premise in its proof.

And circular arguments certainly do not form a good basis on which to formulate sound public policy.

 

Reason number two: Only American Indians have the right to criticize immigration policy

Our response

The idea that only "Native American" have the right to oppose immigration to the United States ignores the concept of "nation." There was no such thing as the political entity known as the the United States until the Founding Fathers created it in 1776.

Furthermore, there are not grades of citizenship. One is either a citizen of this country, or one is not. We are not more or less citizens of the United States based on the number of generations preceding us on these shores.

And, particularly, we are not more or less citizens of this country based on our skin color or ethnicity.

Since everyone in the world has ancestors who immigrated from somewhere else, the immigration history of one's ancestors is probably not relevant to the formulation of wise public policy.

 

And the number one reason to overpopulate the country: Your ancestors were immigrants!

Our response:

Yes, my ancestors came from somewhere other than North America. As did yours and everyone else's  including those of the Native Americans. In fact, everyone in the world's ancestors came from somewhere other than the place they now call home.

In other words, every nation is a "nation of immigrants" and this meaningless slogan is useless as a basis for public policy. To redefine the world's boundaries according to ancestral wanderings would be a foolish and impossible task.

Furthermore, because a policy was appropriate in the past, does not mean it is necessarily eternally good. For example, if my ancestors were pioneers, I am not therefore constrained to advocate pioneering and expansionism as sound public policy forever.



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Mexico
KEYWORDS: aliens; borders; illegal; immigrantlist; immigration; jobs; mexico
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 12/24/2006 12:10:21 PM PST by A. Pole
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To: Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; Jhoffa_; FITZ; arete; FreedomPoster; Red Jones; Pyro7480; ...
"It's true that immigration grows the economy, but so what? If a half billion Chinese were to move from China to the United States tomorrow, the U.S. economy would grow (leaving aside the political upheaval) and China's would shrink, but is that a good thing necessarily? Lawrence Kudlow seems to think so."

If you are interested in getting $50 per hour jobs see the tagline.

2 posted on 12/24/2006 12:12:35 PM PST by A. Pole (John McCain: "Pick lettuce!" - http://projectusa.org/db/forums/lettucepickers100.php)
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To: A. Pole

BTTT Lots more thoughtful than I first thought by reading the headline. Thanks for posting.


3 posted on 12/24/2006 12:14:53 PM PST by Libertina (All Nations Under God)
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To: A. Pole
Makes sense to me, but to the Open Border FReepers, I'm probably a bigot.
4 posted on 12/24/2006 12:16:48 PM PST by BW2221
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To: A. Pole

Great one A. Ploe, thanks.


5 posted on 12/24/2006 12:17:21 PM PST by Afronaut (Press 2 for English - Thanks Mr. President !)
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To: gubamyster

ping


6 posted on 12/24/2006 12:19:02 PM PST by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: All
Is there any reasonable person left who doesn't believe that Bush has gotten what he wanted by allowing this invasion?

We are now one of the largest Spanish-speaking nations in the world. We're a major source of Latin music, journalism and culture.

Just go to Miami, or San Antonio, Los Angeles, Chicago or West New York, New Jersey ... and close your eyes and listen. You could just as easily be in Santo Domingo or Santiago, or San Miguel de Allende.

For years our nation has debated this change -- some have praised it and others have resented it. By nominating me, my party has made a choice to welcome the new America.

As I speak, we are celebrating the success of democracy in Mexico.

George Bush from a campaign speech in Miami, August 2000.

You can read the speech here.

Here is an excerpt of a good critique of that speech:

In equating our intimate historic bonds to our mother country and to Canada with our ties to Mexico, W. shows a staggering ignorance of the civilizational facts of life. The reason we are so close to Britain and Canada is that we share with them a common historical culture, language, literature, and legal system, as well as similar standards of behavior, expectations of public officials, and so on. My Bush Epiphany By Lawrence Auster

The Path to National Suicide by Lawrence Auster (1990)

An essay on multi-culturalism and immigration.

Click the Pic!!!!

How can we account for this remarkable silence? The answer, as I will try to show, is that when the Immigration Reform Act of 1965 was being considered in Congress, the demographic impact of the bill was misunderstood and downplayed by its sponsors. As a result, the subject of population change was never seriously examined. The lawmakers’ stated intention was that the Act should not radically transform America’s ethnic character; indeed, it was taken for granted by liberals such as Robert Kennedy that it was in the nation’s interest to avoid such a change. But the dramatic ethnic transformation that has actually occurred as a result of the 1965 Act has insensibly led to acceptance of that transformation in the form of a new, multicultural vision of American society. Dominating the media and the schools, ritualistically echoed by every politician, enforced in every public institution, this orthodoxy now forbids public criticism of the new path the country has taken. “We are a nation of immigrants,” we tell ourselves— and the subject is closed. The consequences of this code of silence are bizarre. One can listen to statesmen and philosophers agonize over the multitudinous causes of our decline, and not hear a single word about the massive immigration from the Third World and the resulting social divisions. Opponents of population growth, whose crusade began in the 1960s out of a concern about the growth rate among resident Americans and its effects on the environment and the quality of life, now studiously ignore the question of immigration, which accounts for fully half of our population growth.

This curious inhibition stems, of course, from a paralyzing fear of the charge of “racism.” The very manner in which the issue is framed—as a matter of equal rights and the blessings of diversity on one side, versus “racism” on the other—tends to cut off all rational discourse on the subject. One can only wonder what would happen if the proponents of open immigration allowed the issue to be discussed, not as a moralistic dichotomy, but in terms of its real consequences. Instead of saying: “We believe in the equal and unlimited right of all people to immigrate to the U.S. and enrich our land with their diversity,” what if they said: “We believe in an immigration policy which must result in a staggering increase in our population, a revolution in our culture and way of life, and the gradual submergence of our current population by Hispanic and Caribbean and Asian peoples.” Such frankness would open up an honest debate between those who favor a radical change in America’s ethnic and cultural identity and those who think this nation should preserve its way of life and its predominant, European-American character. That is the actual choice—as distinct from the theoretical choice between “equality” and “racism”—that our nation faces. But the tyranny of silence has prevented the American people from freely making that choice.

7 posted on 12/24/2006 12:21:22 PM PST by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: A. Pole

Immigration restrictionists have all the arguments on our side.

We also have the overwhelming support from the majority of all cultures and races.

The bottom line for everyone is that a lot more people do not mean a better life for anyone, except a few.

And that few is running this country. We need to find a way to stop that.


8 posted on 12/24/2006 12:29:34 PM PST by outdriving (Diversity is a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.)
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To: A. Pole

Bump for later read.


9 posted on 12/24/2006 12:31:48 PM PST by WayneM (Democrats - The Party of Traitors.)
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To: BW2221
A very thoughtful and factual article, to my thinking. We need, at our southern border, the same sort of strict control of immigration that Mexico itself has at ITS southern border. As I've said and written many times before, a nation which cannot control its borders, cannot control its destiny.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article: "Nancy D'Alesandro's Culture of Corruption"

10 posted on 12/24/2006 12:32:59 PM PST by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com Please get involved.)
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To: A. Pole

The political establishment is completely out of touch with the populace on the issue of border security, and think that they know better than their constituants.


11 posted on 12/24/2006 12:35:14 PM PST by Clintonfatigued (Spectator sports are the opiate of the masses.)
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To: A. Pole

Very well put. The opposing side only wants to destroy America.


12 posted on 12/24/2006 12:40:16 PM PST by freekitty
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To: freekitty

And to put money in their own pockets and attach their names to legendary status.


13 posted on 12/24/2006 12:40:57 PM PST by freekitty
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To: A. Pole

Top 5 reasons why the US won't be swamped, no matter what we do:

1) The Mexican birthrate has dropped to just slightly higher than typical western industrialized nation standards, about 2.3 children per family.

2) While the US has wide open borders, Mexico doesn't, and tries to keep out people from central and South America. If they can't get into Mexico, they can't get to the US.

3) Vincente Fox has created and sold the idea of the PPP to the two main parties of Mexico. The PPP, the Plan Puebla Panama, is a gigantic transportation and shipping hub over a large part of southern Mexico. In includes air travel, shipping, and an enormous railroad hub. While initially this has caused an uptick of emigration from the people who have been displaced; soon all the new jobs created will cause the region to attract immigrants looking for work.

4) Mexicans arriving in the US tend to adapt to the politics and social scheme of their final destination. If they arrive to large non-integrated Mexican communities in blue States, they don't integrate and vote democrat. If they *have* to integrate in their communities, they do so, and in red States vote republican.

5) As a group, however, Mexicans do integrate into the social fabric of the US, and actually, faster than most historical European waves of immigrants. Once they are here, as a rule, they rapidly lose their ties with "the old country", and it is not uncommon to see first generation grandparent illegals living in the same home with second generation children raised in the US, who are neither "here nor there", and third generation children who are fully integrated, often don't even speak Spanish, and know nothing of Mexico.

Now, the one proviso I must make to all of this, is that Mexico itself is showing signs of tremendous social disorder, based in many different reasons. Perhaps even civil war. And if that happens, several million of their people can be expected to try and head North to escape the chaos and bloodshed. It will be a trying time for both of us.


14 posted on 12/24/2006 12:53:33 PM PST by Popocatapetl
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To: Popocatapetl

Whooooooooooooooo boy.


15 posted on 12/24/2006 1:07:06 PM PST by Bradís Gramma (Get right with God....eternity is a long time.....)
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To: Popocatapetl
Mexico itself is showing signs of tremendous social disorder, based in many different reasons. Perhaps even civil war. And if that happens, several million of their people can be expected to try and head North to escape the chaos and bloodshed. It will be a trying time for both of us.

Hmm

16 posted on 12/24/2006 1:08:04 PM PST by A. Pole (John McCain: "Pick lettuce!" - http://projectusa.org/db/forums/lettucepickers100.php)
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To: A. Pole
Nice piece but flawed in many ways.

1925 -1965, doing just fine thank you?

Two words. Baby boomers. That's over, now what? Need more bodies...if we exclude (from the Sierra Club, no less - Oy!) recent immigrants, the population of the US is really starting to fall. Subtract the 10, 12, 15 million recent urban additions and you can see why we have a problem - in the citys.

Your take is your business, but we *do* need to control who gets in - good folk, not floor sweepings gang-bangers - and try harder to see the big picture.

The 'otherwise' makes post-apocylitic flicks like "Escape from NY" all too believable. Merry Christmas!
17 posted on 12/24/2006 1:08:30 PM PST by ASOC (The phrase "What if" or "If only" are for children.)
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To: outdriving
And that few is running this country. We need to find a way to stop that.

History teaches us the only way, and it ain't pretty.

18 posted on 12/24/2006 1:19:56 PM PST by Wolfie
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To: A. Pole

Most of my ancestors were pioneers and colonists -- NOT immigrants.

19 posted on 12/24/2006 1:23:27 PM PST by BenLurkin ("The entire remedy is with the people." - W. H. Harrison)
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To: A. Pole
Off topic but this statement needs correction:

"Furthermore, there are not grades of citizenship. One is either a citizen of this country, or one is not. We are not more or less citizens of the United States based on the number of generations preceding us on these shores."

If you are an American citizen, it doesn't matter in what state you were born, but live in one of the territories of the U.S., you are automatically a second-class citizen, where federal laws and jurisprudence and some taxes apply to you without representation in Congress nor the ability to vote in the Electoral College for the President that enforces these laws, and who appoints federal judges who rule over the subjects of the Congress.

"And, particularly, we are not more or less citizens of this country based on our skin color or ethnicity."

There are over four million American citizens that are less citizens by virtue of geographic location alone.

"In my opinion, Congress has no existence and can exercise no authority outside of the Constitution. Still less is it true that Congress can deal with new territories just as other nations have done or may do with their new territories. This nation is under the control of a written constitution, the supreme law of the land and the only source of the powers which our government, or any branch or officer of it, may exert at any time or at any place. Monarchical and despotic governments, unrestrained by written constitutions, may do with newly acquired territories what this government may not do consistently with our fundamental law. To say otherwise is to concede that Congress may, by action taken outside of the Constitution, engraft upon our republican institutions a colonial system such as exists under monarchical governments. Surely such a result was never contemplated by the fathers of the Constitution. If that instrument had contained a word suggesting the possibility of a result of that character it would never have been adopted by the people of the United States. The idea that this country may acquire territories anywhere upon the earth, by conquest or treaty, and hold them as mere colonies or provinces,—the people inhabiting them to enjoy only such rights as Congress chooses to accord to them,—is wholly inconsistent with the spirit and genius, as well as with the words, of the Constitution." - Justice John Harlan, dissenting in the Insular Cases, 1901

20 posted on 12/24/2006 1:54:56 PM PST by cll (Carthage must be destroyed)
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To: A. Pole
Someone needs to tell Project USA that before they start cherry-picking, they should do some checking.

Luxembourg has a immigration rate of 8.75 per 1000 while the US is at 3.18 per 1000. Their population growth rate is 1.23% while the US is at 0.91%

BTW, I curious as to exactly what a "traditional and sustainable" immigration level is. 100,000 a year?

21 posted on 12/24/2006 2:07:30 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: Ben Ficklin
Someone needs to tell Project USA that before they start cherry-picking, they should do some checking. [...] Luxembourg has a immigration rate of 8.75 per 1000 while the US is at 3.18 per 1000.

Are you saying that Luxembourg is prosperous because of mass illegal immigration?

22 posted on 12/24/2006 2:13:15 PM PST by A. Pole (John McCain: "Pick lettuce!" - http://projectusa.org/db/forums/lettucepickers100.php)
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To: Libertina

Bookmark for later reading.


23 posted on 12/24/2006 2:20:30 PM PST by CJ Wolf
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To: A. Pole
A 1998 Roper Poll found that only six percent of Americans think
we don't have enough people in the country.


And those six-percenters get in a fair percentage of posts at Free Republic!
24 posted on 12/24/2006 2:40:22 PM PST by VOA
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To: A. Pole
You must not have read the article.

It is about legal and illegal immigration levels. The first sentence says reduce legal and end illegal, with the only question being, what is the "traditional and sustainable" level of legal immigration?

As to being prosperous and how immigration affects that, read Reason #9 in the article you posted. "Its true that immigration grows the economy, but so what."

The reality is that if the US had a realistic immigration policy, there would be but a few illegals here. By "realistic immigration policy", I mean at a rate higher than it is but lower than Luxembourg's. Somewhere closer to the immigration rate of Canada.

25 posted on 12/24/2006 2:43:20 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: A. Pole

No. 1 top reason for unlimited immigration: the Democrats need the votes.


26 posted on 12/24/2006 2:45:23 PM PST by The_Media_never_lie
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To: BW2221

"Makes sense to me, but to the Open Border FReepers, I'm probably a bigot."

It feels a little weird to say this on Christmas Eve, but I got to say...
"Don't feel bad BW2221, the Open-Borders/Amnesty
folks presume I'm a bigot as well".


27 posted on 12/24/2006 2:47:05 PM PST by VOA
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To: Popocatapetl

And your facts come from where?
susie


28 posted on 12/24/2006 3:24:58 PM PST by brytlea (amnesty--an act of clemency by an authority by which pardon is granted esp. to a group of individual)
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To: Ben Ficklin
By "realistic immigration policy", I mean at a rate higher than it is but lower than Luxembourg's.

If Luxembourg has high immigration rate from Third World/Muslim countries it does not bode well for the future. You are confusing the result with the cause. The high immigration to prosperous European countries is the RESULT of prosperity not the CAUSE.

So the general point advanced by the ProjectUSA stands.

The main weakness of the West in last years is too few children and too many abortions. Replacing Western populations with the Third World immigrants will not help much, no more than the influx of barbarians helped Romans.

29 posted on 12/24/2006 3:39:21 PM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.")
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To: cll

You are primarily speaking of Puerto Rico. The people there have spoken time and again when given the vote on the subject. Independence, statehood, or status quo. They alway overwhelmingly pick remaining the same. Puerto Ricans can only blame themselves if they do not like it.


30 posted on 12/24/2006 3:41:12 PM PST by packrat35 (guest worker/day worker=SlaveMart)
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To: The_Media_never_lie
No. 1 top reason for unlimited immigration: the Democrats need the votes.

Yes, and Republicans need cheap docile labor.

31 posted on 12/24/2006 3:41:41 PM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.")
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To: A. Pole

Marking.


32 posted on 12/24/2006 3:42:29 PM PST by TAdams8591
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To: Popocatapetl
4) Mexicans arriving in the US tend to adapt to the politics and social scheme of their final destination.

Really? What part of American politics involves marches of hundreds of thousands of people demanding rights they don't have?

If they *have* to integrate in their communities, they do so, and in red States vote republican.

Hey, no one "has" to integrate. They can remain seperatist and not bother to become a part of American society and remain in the lowest paying jobs.

5) As a group, however, Mexicans do integrate into the social fabric of the US, and actually, faster than most historical European waves of immigrants.

This is just pure crap. I know of people that came here from Poland three years ago and they already speak English so that I can understand them. So many hispanics, including mexicans that I know are still unintelligible to me. Some have been here for over five years.

....and it is not uncommon to see first generation grandparent illegals living in the same home with second generation children raised in the US, who are neither "here nor there", and third generation children who are fully integrated, often don't even speak Spanish, and know nothing of Mexico.

That doesn't even make sense. How can someone live with "grandma" from mexico and know nothing of mexico?

Do you really expect intelligent people to buy this baloney?

33 posted on 12/24/2006 3:43:52 PM PST by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: raybbr
This is just pure crap. I know of people that came here from Poland three years ago and they already speak English so that I can understand them. So many hispanics, including mexicans that I know are still unintelligible to me. Some have been here for over five years.

My English is not perfect but I am happy to use it every day. A while ago I went to a cafe owned by the Latin Americans in a center of old town in Greater Boston area.

I wanted to try some Spanish food and to spend money there, I really tried. I was not able to communicate with them AT ALL! If you went to my home city in Poland you would get better service. They did not seem to be interested in doing business with a naturalized "Gringo".

34 posted on 12/24/2006 3:51:07 PM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.")
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To: A. Pole
Wesołych Świąt! My good friend.
35 posted on 12/24/2006 3:56:20 PM PST by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: raybbr
Dziekuje, nawzajem!
36 posted on 12/24/2006 3:57:31 PM PST by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn: "Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.")
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To: packrat35

"Puerto Ricans can only blame themselves if they do not like it."

You are partially correct. But I'm off to celebrate Christmas Eve so I'll elaborate later.

Merry Christmas.


37 posted on 12/24/2006 4:05:28 PM PST by cll (Carthage must be destroyed)
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To: cll

Merry Christmas. Not trying to start a fight. I do know the details. I would prefer indepence myself for Puerto Rico.


38 posted on 12/24/2006 4:28:38 PM PST by packrat35 (guest worker/day worker=SlaveMart)
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To: A. Pole
PUSA's point doesn't stand. I have pointed out just one of their faulty assumptions.

In fact, PUSA has identified in Reason #9 what they have to do for their argument to prevail. They have to "expose Greenspan as a fraud".

Good luck doing that.

As for Europe and their muslim immigration, you have forgotten, or never knew, that a very heavy period of immigration was in the post WW2 period to rebuild prosperity.

39 posted on 12/24/2006 4:53:36 PM PST by Ben Ficklin
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To: raybbr

I said "historical" waves of immigrants. Historically, when immigrants first arrive, they work low wage jobs and are still "old country". Definitely the case with the waves of Italian, Irish, German, Jewish, etc.

Second generation was still in the ghetto, still have old country, but growing up to understand a lot about America. This generation is where most of the problems lie; they tend to form mafias and street gangs.

Third generation is full American. The majority leave the ghetto and move out over the country. If they have any affiliation with the old country, it is just sentimental.

Now Mexicans in the US are different. The older they are the less they are integrated. They were raised in Mexico and know very little English. The ones who were born and had their young life in Mexico, but were later raised in the US, speak passable but not good English. The children who were born and raised here often know only English with just single Spanish words, just the opposite of the old ones. They have no Spanish grammar.

But believe me, Mexico is not an issue for those raised in the US. Often they have never been there, know no one there, and would be just as out of place there as a random anglo kid kicked across the border.

Even a lot of their parents left Mexico when they were 6-14 years old. After living in the US for years, they haven't the foggiest of how to live in Mexico.

These are people who came here to stay. They keep no ties with Mexico, except maybe for relatives who live "far away", and it is not much a subject for discussion in their household.

Time changes people. Those who are illegal today will be integrated before long. The few who don't will be like people who still live in Chinatowns and Little Italys.


40 posted on 12/24/2006 4:59:01 PM PST by Popocatapetl
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To: A. Pole

bump for after Christmas reading


41 posted on 12/24/2006 5:04:56 PM PST by kalee (No burka for me....EVER!)
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To: kalee

Bump to read after Christmas and try to figure out what is really going on with this President...I feel worse about him every week.


42 posted on 12/24/2006 5:24:24 PM PST by Rapscallion (Under Islam, we will not be free to choose anything...except Allah.)
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To: Popocatapetl
Historically, when immigrants first arrive, they work low wage jobs and are still "old country". Definitely the case with the waves of Italian, Irish, German, Jewish, etc.

Not so fast.

Today’s immigrants differ greatly from historic immigrant populations. Prior to 1960, immigrants to the U.S. had education levels that were similar to those of the non-immigrant workforce and earned wages that were, on aver­age, higher than those of non-immigrant workers. Since the mid-1960s, however, the education levels of new immigrants have plunged relative to non-immigrants; consequently, the average wages of immigrants are now well below those of the non-immigrant population. Recent immigrants increasingly occupy the low end of the U.S. socio-economic spectrum.[2]

The current influx of poorly educated immigrants is the result of two factors: first, a legal immigration system that favors kinship ties over skills and education; and second, a permissive attitude toward illegal immigration that has led to lax border enforcement and non-enforcement of the laws that prohibit the employment of illegal immigrants. In recent years, these factors have produced an inflow of some ten and a half million immigrants who lack a high school education. In terms of increased poverty and expanded government expenditure, this importation of poorly educated immigrants has had roughly the same effect as the addition of ten and a half million native-born high school drop-outs.
From here.

Apparently your opinion is not defensible.

43 posted on 12/24/2006 5:53:52 PM PST by raybbr (You think it's bad now - wait till the anchor babies start to vote.)
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To: A. Pole

BTTT


44 posted on 12/24/2006 6:12:56 PM PST by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s......you weren't really there)
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To: raybbr

And you seem to confuse education with intelligence, hard work, initiative, and entrepreneurship. There is a big difference between those who were offered opportunity and refused it, and those who have never been offered it.

So let's continue with the comparison. Take a large number of American high school dropouts. Put them in Mexico and tell them that to get back to the US, they need to cross 100 miles of rocky desert, will be refused at the border if they try to cross normally, and if they are seen by a policeman will be sent back.

I would give you high odds that most of the American dropouts would end up staying in Mexico, very few even leaving the neighborhood where they found themselves. In short order they would be derelicts, begging for food, and desperately asking other Americans to help them get home.

Is there any comparison with the vast number of Mexican who pass through those same obstacles in a tireless effort to find employment, any employment? Who will hold two and three jobs, networking to find better work, get papers and become legal, and while living in fear in an underground existence?

Yes, America has long recognized that things other than a paper education make good quality immigrants. And we still should. Worthless, lazy peasants should get a one-way ticket out of the country. But there should be a means in which hard working people who already have much at stake in the US, should have an opportunity to expediently get citizenship without having to leave the country and wait for their ten most profitable years while their application is allowed to mellow.

Hell, right now, if the US offered citizenship to foreigners living here in good standing, for $30,000 cash, that they speak fluent English, and can pass our other citizenship requirements, we would get so many applicants that they could easily pay for the entire border fence in a year.

They *want* to be here legally. If they are hard working, industrious, and have through their labor earned lots of money, we should be happy to take them. They are winners.

Losers we should send back to Mexico.


45 posted on 12/24/2006 7:40:10 PM PST by Popocatapetl
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To: Popocatapetl
Definitely the case with the waves of Italian, Irish, German, Jewish, etc.

Ah yes. The old "it's just like the Irish" argument.

Did Ireland have a centuries old claim on North America?

Did they lose it in a war against the same people they came to live with?

Did they come in such numbers that they literally outnumbered the people whose country they came to live in within 1 generation?

I could go on and on. But safe to say your analogies fall apart under even simple analysis. And for those of us who have had to live with the real effects of this hostile, vicious, hate filled invasion from a brutal and corrupt society - like having members of our families assaulted, kidnapped, almost murdered (like mine) - your soothing, cooing words ring ugly and empty like the cheap salesguy you are.

By the way...one of the first rights of any democracy is to decide who is part of that democracy, the right of free association. As far as "These are people who came here to stay", when did we vote to have them stay with us and ultimately demand to rule us?

In what way are Americans free when Mexicans vote in their elections, occupy offices in our government, even become police because of sickening, un-Constitutional preferences for them over us?

You obviously have an agenda. And that agenda is, "don't worry little people, everything will be alright when we take over. You're gonna enjoy working for us, just get used to it...". So you're busted, pal. A liar with an agenda is all you are.

And as for this statement:

they tend to form mafias and street gangs

My family(s) have been here for going on 3 centuries and they are still, for the most part, the same Protestant, honorable rural people that they have always been since they stepped off the wooden boats that brought them. I know of no generation that went through this "phase" you claim is normal. They came from civilized societies and they remained and remain civilized.

It was only when we went weak and allowed in the un-Civilized that the phenomenon you speak of occurred.

46 posted on 12/24/2006 9:04:34 PM PST by Regulator
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To: A. Pole; gubamyster

Excellent post!

Ping!


47 posted on 12/24/2006 9:26:03 PM PST by TheLion (How about "Comprehensive Immigration Enforcement," for a change)
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To: A. Pole

The U.S. should stop illegal immigration and should restrict immigration to only highly qualified and productive folks. IIRC, you're a worthy immigrant -- technically qualified and produtive, exactly the type that should be encouraged to come in.


48 posted on 12/24/2006 11:06:32 PM PST by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: A. Pole

Luxembourg has a huge amount of legal immigration as it is one of the centres of the EU, so tons of money pours in from THAT front. It's also a top-notch banking location (think Switzerland, only more secretive) and you have highly qualified bankers coming to L'bourg. Those are the kinds of people needed in the US.


49 posted on 12/24/2006 11:10:26 PM PST by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: A. Pole
My English is not perfect but I am happy to use it every day. A while ago I went to a cafe owned by the Latin Americans in a center of old town in Greater Boston area.

Gotta agree with you on that. I went driving some months ago from D.C. to the Smithsonian Air museum near Dulles airport, and stopped somewhere south of D.C. to ask for directions. NO ONE SPOKE ENGLISH --> CArramba!
50 posted on 12/24/2006 11:13:03 PM PST by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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