Did we forget Herihito?
Posted on 01/11/2007 3:18:50 PM PST by West Coast Conservative
Former prime minister Ariel Sharon told President George W. Bush ahead of the US-led invasion of Iraq of the dangers Saddam Hussein posed for the region, but also warned him that the Arab world would not be receptive to democracy, former ambassador to the US Danny Ayalon told The Jerusalem Post on Thursday.
Ayalon, who sat in on numerous Bush-Sharon meetings, said the US and Israel held close consultations during the run-up to the war, but that Sharon was very careful not to advocate any particular American action.
Ayalon said he served as "Sharon's watchdog," ensuring that when officials from the Defense or Foreign ministries came to Washington they would give US officials a "true analysis, but never cross the line of recommending policy."
Israel, Ayalon said, did not tell the Americans what they should do, since Sharon was "astute and careful enough" to realize that this could lead to future accusations that Israel led the US into Iraq. But, Ayalon said, Bush did receive Sharon's analysis of the situation.
According to Sharon, Saddam was an acute threat, and he supported his analysis by pointing to the Iraqi dictator's conduct during the Iran-Iraq War; his launching of 39 Scud missiles at Israel, and more than 40 at Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Bahrain, during the first Gulf War; his material and logistical support for terrorists; and his track record of intimidating his neighbors.
In addition, Ayalon said the Saddam threat factor was driven home by the intelligence information that "we all shared" that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, "especially in the chemical area."
Another element involved in these analyses was the fact that despite Israel's bombing of Iraq's Osirak nuclear plant in 1981, Iraq still had the blueprints and technological know-how to create nuclear weapons, "and it was just the matter of finding the right moment to put their program back on track in a fast manner."
Regarding democratization of the region, Ayalon said Sharon told Bush it would take a long time, and "the president understood that this was something that would not be done overnight.
"Based on his intimate knowledge of the Arab world, Sharon was skeptical of the idea that Arab societies were ready to receive democratic culture," Ayalon said.
Former Sharon spokesman Ra'anan Gissin, meanwhile, said Sharon "used his expertise on guerrilla warfare" during his discussions with Bush, and advised that before trying to impose democracy on Iraq it was necessary to bring about stability.
Gissin said Sharon told Bush that whatever he decided, the US would eventually leave the region, but Israel would have to stay and deal with the consequences of US action or inaction.
Gissin described one meeting where Sharon gave Bush a "lecture on how to deal with counterinsurgency," and discussed with him in detail the need to isolate Iraq, prevent the flow of money and weapons and keep the insurgents under constant pressure.
According to Gissin, Sharon was adamant that no Israeli official should speak publicly about what the US should do. However, he said, in the private meetings Sharon warned against "putting the cart before the horse, and said that there can't be democracy without stability."
Gissin said Sharon also warned Bush that democratization would drive a wedge between the US and its moderate Arab allies in the region - Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and the Persian Gulf countries - who were worried about what this democratization would mean for their regimes.
We won the war in Iraq with shock and awe which destroyed the Saddam regime. What we are engaged in now is "nation building" in a country that has never been a nation but simply a collection of sects and tribes held together by tyranny.
I still don't understand why or how Sharon could support the "peace for land" lie? It just seems to counter his wisdom in other areas.
So what's the alternative? Another strong man? A society run by sharia?
Turkey seems to do OK. It's difficult, I grant you, but please, don't give me this "it can't work" crap.
Not that Arabs are genetically incapable of taking to democratic institutions. Christian Arabs, as found in Lebanon, have no problem with adopting this form of government.
It is the MUSLIM Arabs that have a problem. It is a problem with the very structure of Islam, which divides humanity into practicing Muslim males, practicing but wholly subservient Muslim females, and dhimmi, which in any other culture would be slaves, unable to exercise any of the rights extended to Muslim males, and subject to the dhimmi tax.
There is another category, of course. Those who refuse to conform for any reason whatsoever end up classified as dead.
A lurking pat buchanan starts screaming, "I knew it! I told them!"
Escaped horse . . . . . empty corral . . . . . . open gate.
What's the point other than the press using Sharon to pile on Bush? It is disingenuous to say that the Arabs won't take to democracy, because there are examples where they have and it works.
They aren't all moonbat, freedom-hating terrorist nutjobs!!
Just 99.98% of them!!
ML/NJ
Turks are not Arabs
BUMP
How much success have we had so far in building nations, especially Muslim nations? I hope we succeed and if so, I shall be in shock and awe. But I think that you have the right answer.
It used to be the dems would use victims, now they use the dead and folks incapicitated to explain thier statements in context.
Saddamn, Cooty and Booty all dead. New gummit in place of his facist regime. Fastest growing economy in the region and 85% of the Country secure. Why is this not a victory?
Pray for W and Our Troops
EXACTLY...don't fall into the mantra of the left...imho...
Do you have a source for this? I hate to be cynical, but if this so then it seems likeliest to be beacuase it started from such a low base after years of sanctions and war, plus huge amounts of foreign aid pouring in (And aid doesn't reflect economic performance).
Isn't that what everyone said after WWII about Germany and Japan?
Google it. One of the greatest unreported stories in the world.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16241340/site/newsweek/
Pray for W and Our Troops
He sold out the religious Jews of Gaza so as to get a sweetheart deal from the prosecution on his Greek land swindle. While the Gaza sellout did not help Israel, it did help Sharon avoid imprisonment and Omri (his son) only got a short imprisonment.
Turks, not arabs.
Japan and S. korea
Read my post again. I said Muslim nations. Huge difference.
In Japan and Korea we did not have to deal with countries whose political structures were shaped by their religious beliefs. In Iraq we definitely do.
Besides, Japan was a nation before the USA became one, albeit not a democracy but an empire. Using your logic we would also have to take credit for building Germany which would be rediculous. I maintain Sharon is right.
Did we forget Herihito?
Not suggesting they're our friends, just that they're Turks, not Arabs, to which I'll add that like the Persians, time to dump the Iran thing along with the mullahs, they don't much like Arabs.
"Not suggesting they're our friends, just that they're Turks, not Arabs, to which I'll add that like the Persians, time to dump the Iran thing along with the mullahs, they don't much like Arabs."
This is true.
Because they are subhumans who can't appreciate freedom or democracy. OK.
Arabs are a tribal people. Tribal people are organized under extended kinship hierarchies. Democracy is not part of the equation in tribes.
In the long term, there's room for triangulation there, but it will have to wait. Perhaps for another Shah.
"In the long term, there's room for triangulation there, but it will have to wait. Perhaps for another Shah."
Very likely.
You are correct Sir. However, due to political correctness, our president could not come out and say what you have stated.
Obviously you have no "on the ground knowledge of Turkey"....please take your "guesses" elsewhere.
He was just a tin-star "god" who was dumped the moment McArthur set up headquarters in Japan. didn't take the Japanese people long to see the light.
Guess that explains why millions of Muslim Arabs have immigrated to the US to live in democracy.
They could easily go live under some oppressive Islamic regime if they wanted to.
"Guess that explains why millions of Muslim Arabs have immigrated to the US to live in democracy. "
"Millions" haven't. Most Arabs in the US are Christian. The rest want this to be a Sharia state just like home or are here for money.
"They could easily go live under some oppressive Islamic regime if they wanted to."
Just as in Europe, that's what they want to happen here.
break the country into 3 states, give each government guns/ammo and then get the HELL outta there asap.
Muslims come here for the economic opportunity. They hate the culture but love the money.
Wrong. Check the stats. More than 5 million Arab Muslims reside in the USA.
You can't love the money and hate the culture that provides you the opportunity to make it. That's skitzo.
Again, if they love Islamic government more, they would be living under it.
Your need of a history lesson is great, but not a job for me. Hint " Kamikaze "
In Japan we used nukes. Herihito, himself ended the slaughter, else they would have fought to the last drop of blood. Recall a few Island battles we had in the Pacific, see how we pacified them.
That is spelled schizo. Americans will go to Saudi Arabia, a repressive monarchy, because the pay is huge. Know a Pharmacology Professor who teaches at King Abdul Aziz University in Riyadh. He hates living Saudi Arabia, But there is no place else where he can make 340K a year and have four months of leave a year.
I said SKITZO!
"Wrong. Check the stats. More than 5 million Arab Muslims reside in the USA."
There aren't even that many Muslims in the US, let alone Arab Muslims. Where do you get your numbers? CAIR?
Or bring it with them.
Are you living under an Islamic govt brought here?
Or bring it with them.
Are you living under an Islamic govt brought here?
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