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New York Rabbi Finds Friends in Iran and Enemies at Home
New York Times ^ | 15 January 2007 | Fernanda Santos

Posted on 01/15/2007 7:30:11 AM PST by shrinkermd

It was a bizarre sight: a cadre of Orthodox Jews, with their distinctive hats, beards and sidelocks, standing alongside President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran last month at a conference in Tehran debating the Holocaust.

Among them was Rabbi Yisroel Dovid Weiss, spokesman and assistant director of a small anti-Zionist group with a foothold in this town in Rockland County, home to one of the nation’s largest communities of Hasidic Jews.

Unlike Mr. Ahmadinejad and most of the others present, including the former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke, Rabbi Weiss does not deny or question the Holocaust; his grandparents died at Auschwitz, as did several of his aunts and uncles, he said. What he and the Iranian president have in common, he explained, is their belief that the Holocaust has been exploited to justify the existence of Israel....

...Back home, Rabbi Weiss and the others were met with anger and scorn. Since their return, they have been ostracized by synagogues, denied service at kosher stores and vilified in Jewish discussion boards on the Web. Posters have surfaced in the Satmar Hasidic enclaves of Brooklyn, calling the members of Neturei Karta “rebels” and “outcasts” and asking Orthodox Jews to “totally cut off ties with this gang.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: bedfellows; iran; rabbis
?
1 posted on 01/15/2007 7:30:13 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd

2 posted on 01/15/2007 7:32:43 AM PST by A. Pole (Byron:"The future cheats us from afar,Nor can we be what we recall,Nor dare we think on what we are")
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To: shrinkermd

Pretty weird. I'm always baffled by the faction of self-loathing Jews that cozy up to the islamics and vote DemonRat. Must be a weird suicide thing with a torture fetish.


3 posted on 01/15/2007 7:35:43 AM PST by Excuse_My_Bellicosity (Liberalism is a social disease.)
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

87% of self-identified Jews voted Democrat in the 2006 election.


4 posted on 01/15/2007 7:37:04 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: shrinkermd

And 70% of observant Jews voted Republican. Don't think Judaism is the issue; it's Secularism.


5 posted on 01/15/2007 7:44:07 AM PST by rightwingcrazy
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity; lizol; Vorthax; Polak z Polski; Grzegorz 246; Lukasz; JoAnka; warsaw44; ...
Pretty weird. I'm always baffled by the faction of self-loathing Jews that cozy up to the islamics and vote DemonRat.

They continue much older tradition which used to be a part of the mainstream. I will explain:

Before WWII the conservative Jewish leaders were condemning Zionism together with Socialism/Communism and Assimilationism.

They have seen Zionism as a godless pseudo-messianic attempt to "force the hand of God" and to build a secular nationalist utopia in the Holy Land. One of the centers of anti-Zionist preaching was Wilno/Vilna/Vilnius.

The situation changed with the WWII when the rabinic establishment in Poland was wiped out and Zionists moved to the center of Jewish life.

The Neturei Karta setlled in the Holy Land BEFORE Zionist settlers:

"For the most part, the members of Neturei Karta are descended from Hungarian Jews who settled in Jerusalem's Old City in the early nineteenth century, and from Lithuanian Jews who were students of the Gaon of Vilna, who had settled earlier. In the late nineteenth century, they participated in the creation of new neighborhoods outside the city walls to alleviate overcrowding in the Old City, and most are now concentrated in the neighborhood of Batei Ungarin and the larger Meah Shearim neighborhood.

At the time, they were vocal opponents to the new political ideology of Zionism that was attempting to assert Jewish sovereignty in Ottoman-controlled Palestine. They resented the new arrivals, who were predominantly secular, and claimed that Jewish redemption could only be brought about by the Jewish messiah."

[...]

"Adherents of Neturei Karta stress those portions in rabbinic literature which state that the Jewish people were first sent into exile from the land of Israel for their sins. Additionally, they maintain the view - basing it on the Babylonian Talmud - that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will. They believe that the true Commonwealth of Israel can only be re-established with the coming of the Messiah."

(Neturei Karta - Wikipedia)

6 posted on 01/15/2007 7:56:24 AM PST by A. Pole (Psalm 14:1: "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.")
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To: All

If they disagree with the goals of Zionism, that's one thing.

But to align themselves with a regime that wants to wipe Israel off the face of the earth is unfathomable to me.


7 posted on 01/15/2007 8:29:10 AM PST by Madeleine Ward
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To: rightwingcrazy

A hassidic Jew is secular? LoL!


8 posted on 01/15/2007 8:55:56 AM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: shrinkermd
The Satmars are not known to be pro-Israel but Dov Weiss crossed a line even ultra-Orthodox Jews couldn't stomach: being in the presence of known anti-Semites. It was just a bizarre sight in Teheran.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

9 posted on 01/15/2007 8:58:23 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: A. Pole
"they maintain the view - basing it on the Babylonian Talmud - that any form of forceful recapture of the Land of Israel is a violation of divine will.

The creation of the Jewish state of Israel in 1948 by the UN can be considered devine will. God works through the nations of the earth; or "Babylon" as the world is sometimes called in scripture.

10 posted on 01/15/2007 9:02:30 AM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: A. Pole
All that Jews need to know about NK is they want Jews to suffer and die. I see nothing Godly in their objectives at all. Oh and which reminds me of the saying that men are judged by the company they keep. The company which NK keeps have no love of Jews at all - they want all Jews dead. Something to keep in mind when one hears the self-serving BS about how observant they are and how they follow "authentic" Jewish tradition. I don't think Hashem meant working for the destruction of the world's only Jewish State as a holy endeavor.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

11 posted on 01/15/2007 9:03:05 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: goldstategop
They've completely abandoned the Torah, or argue Most of the Mosaic Jewish laws away through the Talmud.
It is said that these Talmudic Jews weren't even from the original last tribes of Benjamin or Judea, that these were actually Eastern Europeans who can into contact with Talmudic Jews after the dispersion by the Romans and adopted it.
12 posted on 01/15/2007 9:11:55 AM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: rightwingcrazy

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1767309/posts?page=18#18


13 posted on 01/15/2007 9:44:16 AM PST by Yehuda ("Land of the free, THANKS TO THE BRAVE!" (Choke on it, pinkos!))
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To: shrinkermd
There are always a few loons.

NK was expelled from the mainstreme non-Zionist Orthodox movement. They are paid shills for the PLO and Iran.

We are talking about a few thousand religious whores.
14 posted on 01/15/2007 11:27:25 AM PST by rmlew (Having slit their throats may the conservatives who voted for Casey choke slowly on their blood.)
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To: shrinkermd
87% of self-identified Jews voted Democrat in the 2006 election.
BS statistic based on oversampling in a few districts where the Democrat challenger was Jewish. The figure is 70-76%.
15 posted on 01/15/2007 11:30:00 AM PST by rmlew (Having slit their throats may the conservatives who voted for Casey choke slowly on their blood.)
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To: shrinkermd

I've seen this guy on Fox... all I can say is I guess I don't under Judiasm if he is an example of an orthodox Jew.


16 posted on 01/15/2007 11:31:50 AM PST by Arizona Carolyn
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To: Yehuda

Can't be, Christians don't vote Democrat.


17 posted on 01/15/2007 11:50:48 AM PST by SJackson (The Pilgrims—Doing the jobs Native Americans wouldn’t do!)
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To: rmlew
I think you might want to reread the Jerusalem Post: HERE. The quote from this article is: "...Plus, Jews - who voted overwhelmingly Democrat in the November election (87 percent, according to exit polls) - often see more eye-to-eye with Democratic members on domestic issues and have strong personal relationships with them, according to Ira Forman

Speaking as a person who has worked and will work in campaigns I must say if you read: THISyou cannot be impressed with the very accurate forecast of the Jewish vote made a full month before the election.

I suppose we can quibble over the number of Jewish voters who vote RAT but I can't imagine anyone not recognizing that Jews overwhelmingly vote RAT. This is important for two reasons--on international matters it weakens Israels case and on domestic matters it identifies at least nonobservant Jews with liberalism especially in respect to social issues.

When I say this to Israel's advocates they usually lapse into a rage that makes Hamlet's death wish sound like the happy chuckle of a freckle faced boy. Making ad hominem attacks on James Baker III or others is less than convincing either personally or politically.

My final thought on this is how can such staunch defenders of Israel vote RAT full well knowing almost every Muslim does likewise. Also, note that people like George Soros who wish to see the right of return and pre-1967 boundares and are willing to spend 200 million to defeat us are also members of the RAT party.

18 posted on 01/15/2007 11:51:27 AM PST by shrinkermd
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To: A. Pole
They continue much older tradition which used to be a part of the mainstream. I will explain:

It was not a "tradition", but an opinion that was held by many Hassidic Jews prior to the establishment of the modern state of Israel. Many Hassidic Jews still reject the primacy of a modern secular democracy in Israel. What they do not reject, is the defense of the Jews that have chosen to make the land of Israel their home, nor do they reject Jewish control over the land now.

Most Hassidic Jews utterly reject the views of the NK or the Satmars- that the way to bring peace is to lay down their arms and let their ememies retake the land, putting themselves at their mercy. This is looked upon as being the height of stupidity. The NK and Satmar are considered the fringe nutjobs now, encouraging the enemies of Jews everywhere to continue their hate giving and it legitamacy.

19 posted on 01/15/2007 12:03:59 PM PST by Nachum
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To: A. Pole
"For the most part, the members of Neturei Karta are descended from Hungarian Jews who settled in Jerusalem's Old City in the early nineteenth century, and from Lithuanian Jews who were students of the Gaon of Vilna, who had settled earlier.

Oh, and one other thing. The rest of the followers of the Vilna Gaon now demand of their brethren that they make aliyah (move to Israel and live there). This constitutes many more observant Jews.

20 posted on 01/15/2007 12:10:31 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Excuse_My_Bellicosity

these space cadets have been marrying their cousins for way too long-think "Deliverance"with black hats,beards,and sidelocks


21 posted on 01/15/2007 12:13:48 PM PST by steamroller
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To: Nachum
It was not a "tradition", but an opinion that was held by many Hassidic Jews prior to the establishment of the modern state of Israel.

The hard Talmudic line was condemning Hassidic Jews as well. I know some Polish Jews from very orthodox families that one of the worst insult word they heard was "Husyt" (the pun derived from Polish name of proto-Protestant sect from Bohemia). They considered Hassidic Jews heretical, uncouth and superstitious:)

22 posted on 01/15/2007 12:47:04 PM PST by A. Pole (" There is no other god but Free Market, and Adam Smith is his prophet ! Bazaar Akbar! ")
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To: shrinkermd
A cadre of Orthodox Jews, with their distinctive hats, beards and sidelocks, standing alongside President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran last month at a conference in Tehran debating denying the Holocaust.

There - that's better.
23 posted on 01/15/2007 12:56:03 PM PST by reagan_fanatic (You'll shoot your eye out, kid)
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To: shrinkermd
I think you might want to reread the Jerusalem Post: HERE. The quote from this article is: "...Plus, Jews - who voted overwhelmingly Democrat in the November election (87 percent, according to exit polls) - often see more eye-to-eye with Democratic members on domestic issues and have strong personal relationships with them, according to Ira Forman
1. Those are the questionable exit polls, I mentioned.
2. Most American Jews don't vote based on Israel or Jewish law. They vote based on secular liberal principles.

Speaking as a person who has worked and will work in campaigns I must say if you read: THISyou cannot be impressed with the very accurate forecast of the Jewish vote made a full month before the election.
The NJDC suggested that 67-75% of American Jews would vote democrat. I said that 70-75% did. There is no disagreement.
Of course, the NJDC did spend months lying about the goals of liberals and leftist Democrats to the Jewish community.

I suppose we can quibble over the number of Jewish voters who vote RAT but I can't imagine anyone not recognizing that Jews overwhelmingly vote RAT. This is important for two reasons--on international matters it weakens Israels case and on domestic matters it identifies at least nonobservant Jews with liberalism especially in respect to social issues.
I see political damage to Israel, but no damage for its case. At any rate, I don't have a problem with American Jews not making Israel a political priority. My problem is the reflexive, ahistorical, and anti-Jewish liberalism.

My final thought on this is how can such staunch defenders of Israel vote RAT full well knowing almost every Muslim does likewise.
Honestly, this has not occured to a lot of liberl New York Jews I spoke to. Many think that the Muslims vote Republican on social issues. They also are deluded enough to think that the Democrats care about terrorism.

Also, note that people like George Soros who wish to see the right of return and pre-1967 boundares and are willing to spend 200 million to defeat us are also members of the RAT party.
And the Hungarian-proclaimed non-Jew and former Arrow Cross Youth, who spend 1943-44 stealing Jewish property, now pretends to be Jewish and has spend millions to create more leftist-Jewish groups trying to destroy Israel and America.

24 posted on 01/15/2007 1:03:12 PM PST by rmlew (Having slit their throats may the conservatives who voted for Casey choke slowly on their blood.)
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To: A. Pole
The hard Talmudic line was condemning Hassidic Jews as well.

The major causes for the philosophic rejection of Hassidism have all been erased in time. There is little difference in the observance or study of Torah between observant Jews these days. If you were to ask your Polish-Jewish friends why they have such opinions, they probably could not tell you. Much of the methods of outreach, discourse, and prayere in the Hassidic movement are emulated by those same same Polish Jews. There is much written about this.

25 posted on 01/15/2007 1:25:51 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum
"The hard Talmudic line was condemning Hassidic Jews as well."
The major causes for the philosophic rejection of Hassidism have all been erased in time.

I am curious about two points. Maybe you know the answers?

1. What exactly was this philosophical or theological difference?

2. What is the position of NK toward Hasidim today?

26 posted on 01/15/2007 3:55:00 PM PST by A. Pole (" There is no other god but Free Market, and Adam Smith is his prophet ! Bazaar Akbar! ")
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To: A. Pole
1. What exactly was this philosophical or theological difference?

It is a long answer but in brief: a Rabbinical luminary (the Baal Shem Tov) emerged that espoused a number of different approaches to general outlook, prayer, and the offering of certain teachings previously hidden from public discourse.

A few of the differences in general outlook:
* The return of the asking for the coming of "Moshiach" (the ultimate redemption), which was banned from prayer after the Shabatai Tzvi debacle.
* The public teachings of certain knowledge from Jewish Mysticism to encourage Jews to return to their faith
* The encouragement for the non-observant to take on some observance of the commandments, even when all are not observed.

There is much more, but the fight between the opponants and the Hassidim was an angry and violent one. The opponants' leaders demanded excomunication for all Hassidic Jews and attacked them visciously. This includes the "informing" on adherents and leaders so that the Russians and later the communists would imprison them in Siberian labor camps or prisons for torture and death. While the physical attacks have ended, old predjudice remains.

2. What is the position of NK toward Hasidim today?

I don't believe that they have any position for or against Hassidism. They will argue that the great luminaries of the Hassidic movement supported their point of view entirely. Their mistake lies in the failure to complete the story. Once the Jews came to Israel in such large numbers, the Hassidic dynastic leaders openly supported the defense of the new population Jews living there, while still openly opposing a secular government. Never do the leaders of the Hassidic movement, with only one exception (Satmar), ever demand that Jews lay down their weapons and let their enemies take over.

27 posted on 01/15/2007 5:08:43 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum
Thank you for your answer. I do not want to bother you too much so you can ignore the text below :)

"The return of the asking for the coming of "Moshiach" (the ultimate redemption), which was banned from prayer after the Shabatai Tzvi debacle."

Is it true that some elements derived or akin to Shabbataism were present in early Hasidism? If so, were they purged out later?

28 posted on 01/15/2007 5:19:20 PM PST by A. Pole (Hugo Chavez: "Huele a azufre, pero Dios está con nosotros")
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To: A. Pole
Is it true that some elements derived or akin to Shabbataism were present in early Hasidism? If so, were they purged out later?

Shabbatai Tzvi was an anachronism. His failure led to so much disappointment that Jewish leaders felt they had to ignore basic tenets of faith that demand the calling for the coming of Moshiach. It is the Rambam that codified the call for Moshiach in the 13 principles of faith. It is a matter of Jewish law that the opponants of Hassidism themselves believe. The Hassidic movement merely returned the physical action of the call for Moshiach to its previous place in faith in defiance of those that tried to hide it.

This, as much as anything else, was a slap in the face to those Jews who revered those leaders. There were acrimonious debates and much strife. The NK's position on the modern state of Israel is looked as stupidity by the opponants AND the Hassidim. :)

29 posted on 01/15/2007 5:37:48 PM PST by Nachum
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To: shrinkermd
"When I say this to Israel's advocates they usually lapse into a rage that makes Hamlet's death wish sound like the happy chuckle of a freckle faced boy. Making ad hominem attacks on James Baker III or others is less than convincing either personally or politically."

Only a fool or someone sucking on the arab teat would fail to realize that Its not an ad hominem attack TO NOTE THAT BAKER SIDES WITH THE ARABS, BECAUSE HE'S ON THEIR PAYROLL.

"My final thought on this is how can such staunch defenders of Israel vote RAT full well knowing almost every Muslim does likewise. "

JINOS WHO VOTE RAT AREN'T STAUNCH SUPPORTERS OF ISRAEL, any more than you are.
30 posted on 01/15/2007 9:51:56 PM PST by Yehuda ("Land of the free, THANKS TO THE BRAVE!" (Choke on it, pinkos!))
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