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Turkish army gathered on the Kurdistanís boarder ready for attack
Kurdish Media ^ | 1/16/07

Posted on 01/17/2007 9:35:11 AM PST by TexKat

London (KurdishMedia.com) 16 January 2007: The Turkish army have gathered and intensified its forces on the Kurdistan’s boarder ready for attack, reported local sources on Tuesday.

While Turkey is holding a conference on Kirkuk without the participation of the Kurdistan Regional Government or any Kurdish political party, Turkey has intensified its forces on the Kurdistan’s border. Some Turkmens, Arabs and a high number of Turkish MP’s have participated in the conference. It was revealed by local sources that only Turkish flag displayed in the conference.

Radio Nawa stated that the Turkish army ready for zero o’clock to attack Kurdistan.

The speaker of Kurdistan Parliament, Adnan Mufti, condemned the meeting and dismissed it as the interferences on Kurdistan’s affairs.

The Kurdistan Presidential Council led by Massuad Barzani has not made any statement regarding the Turkish conference on Kirkuk or the Turkish army’s gathering on the Kurdistan’s border.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: kurdistansboarder; turkisharmy

Turkey's Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan addresses the lawmakers of his ruling Justice and Development Party in Ankara, Tuesday, Jan. 16, 2007. Turkey's prime minister warned Iraqi Kurdish groups Tuesday against trying to seize control of the northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said Turkey will not stand by amid growing tensions among ethnic Turkmens, Arabs and Kurds in Iraq's oil-rich north. (AP Photo)


1 posted on 01/17/2007 9:35:13 AM PST by TexKat
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To: TexKat

So if they invade the Kurds, do we have to fight NATO?


2 posted on 01/17/2007 9:41:02 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: Dog; Valin; jmc1969; SunkenCiv; Marine_Uncle; Ernest_at_the_Beach

An unidentified Iraqi Shiite Muslim cleric listens to a panel of experts and politicians from Turkey and Iraq who were discussing the current situation and the future of the oil-rich northern Iraqi city of Kirkuk in Ankara, Monday, Jan. 15, 2007. Turkey is warning that ethnic groups in Kirkuk must share power, amid growing fears that Iraq's Kurds will seize control of Kirkuk as part of a push for an independent Kurdish state on the Turkey-Iraq border. (AP Photo/Burhan Ozbilici)


3 posted on 01/17/2007 9:43:25 AM PST by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: BARLF

mark


4 posted on 01/17/2007 9:43:48 AM PST by BARLF
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To: stuartcr

Take legal actions against the participants of so-called “Kirkuk 2007” conference

1/17/2007 KurdishMedia.com - By Pir Aso Yarsani

Turkey’s various hostile interventions in the Iraqi government, in general, and the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG) affairs, in particular, must be immediately stopped and condemned in a joint announcement by both KRG and the Iraqi government; otherwise Turkey will continue to make fun of itself by insulting and humiliating these legal bodies more and more.

If Turkey is not stopped now, its illegal actions will inevitably lead to another bloody regional armed conflict. A conflict which I guess before everything else will shrink Turkey to become as big as Kosovo. That should indeed matter all Turkish fascists, I don’t mind personally.

A Turkey once upon a time described by European scholars as ‘a mad man of Europe’, has now become the mad cow of the Middle East which must be either cured or isolated from the rest of the healthy world. A country which historically was given chance after chance to become a good example of diversity and coexistence of many distinctive folk groups (that are mainly Kurds, Armenians and Turks) but chose to commit two genocides; the first one caused 1.5 millions Armenians death, and the second one thousands of thousands Kurdish death, burned villages, displacement of ca a half million Kurds and currently a well-designed psychological war aimed to target all Kurds wherever they are now. However, Turks should now know better that Kurds is an immortal nation and despite many hardships they are determined to continue their struggles for a better world.

A world in which a Turk and a Kurd is treated equally, not like today’s Turkey where Kurds are deprived from their entire cultural and political human rights and unfortunately viewed as enemies. It is evident that the Turkish politicians have miscalculated both regional and international real political arenas. This notion of illogical thinking should be Turkey’s first priority and not hosting “Kirkuk 2007” which is undoubtedly an Iraqi affair not Turkish.

Concerning the so-called “Turkmen National Front” which initially was set up by the Turkish intelligent organization (MIT) to function as a Turkish proxy inside the Southern Kurdistan, all Iraqi patriots should be united to confront this mercenary group. The Iraqi people have all national and international rights to conduct a set of effective measurements to tackle this issue. What Iraqis can do are:

1) Bringing this issue to UN
2) Closing the Turkmen national front offices and prohibiting them to contact Turkey
3) All Kurds inside and outside Kirkuk should personally boycott any cultural and financial affairs with those Turkmen who are worshiping Ataturk or Turkey Finally, European Union along with all Turkish democratic forces, if there is any at all, should immediately break their deadly silence and demand from Turkey to behave like civilized countries and democracies.

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13905


5 posted on 01/17/2007 9:44:40 AM PST by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: TexKat

It is time for a gut check on the part of the Iraqi govt. Will they protect Iraqi territory even if it is Kurdish terriotry, or will they make the Kurds deal with a foreign army by themselves? If they don't support the kurds in this, then the kurds will have a basis for secession.


6 posted on 01/17/2007 9:46:14 AM PST by contemplator (Capitalism gets no Rock Concerts)
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US reasserts support for upcoming Kirkuk referendum

1/17/2007 KurdishMedia.com - By Vladimir van Wilgenburg

Although Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has commented sharply over the past week on the so-called "changing demographics" of the city Kirkuk, even calling for the referendum scheduled to take place there to be postponed, US authorities have indicated that there is no support in Washington, DC for such postponement. This reported the Turkish newspaper Hurriyet.

Speaking before his ruling AKP group last Wednesday, Prime Minister Erdogan had said "...In light of demographic changes in Kirkuk, it is not right for a referendum to take place right now...." At a press conference yesterday in the US capital however, Tom Casey, a spokesman for the State Department, made comments indictating US unwillingness to listen to Ankara's push for a postponed referendum:

"These are subjects which have debated in the past. In the Iraqi Constitution, there are certain mechanisms in place with regards to the determination of Kirkuk's status. And we of course are expecting the Iraqi government to move according to these plans."

Recently Ross Wilson, the US Ambassador to Turkey, showed support for the referendum. Wilson said "The future of Kirkuk is one which the Iraqi people have to decide upon. It is natural that the US, Turkey, and other countries would have opinions on Kirkuk, but in the end, it is Iraq which will be making the choices."

Still Washington takes Turkish concerns over the developments in “Iraq’s Kirkuk region seriously”, Ross Wilson said. Soon the Turkish parliament will debate the situation of Iraq and especially the status of Kirkuk.

Senator Joe Biden, chairman of the U.S. Senate's powerful Foreign Relations Committee and a presidential candidate, advised the Kurds to refrain from independence and full control over Kirkuk in order to avoid a conflict with Turkey

Recently the UN warned for a looming crisis in Kirkuk. The UN voiced it’s concerns at reports of mistreatment of ethnic Turkmen and Arabs by the Kurdish majority.

The US support for the referendum might ease fears among Kurds, that the American won't be loyal towards Kurdish interests, due to the words of Bush and Rice.

http://www.kurdmedia.com/news.asp?id=13904


7 posted on 01/17/2007 9:46:18 AM PST by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: TexKat

What does he have in his ears -- the first "Universal Translator?"


8 posted on 01/17/2007 9:46:57 AM PST by Skywarner (The U.S. Armed Forces... Producers of FREEDOM for over 200 years!!)
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To: stuartcr

The Turks should have been kicked out of NATO in 2003.
Turkey WAS our temporary ally during the Cold War.
Now they are more like an agressive, muslim, cross-bred of Russia and France. When the Turks really screw with Iraqi Kurdistan, I hope we stand with the Kurds. They have PROVEN to be our allies. Turkey has proven to be a backstabber.


9 posted on 01/17/2007 9:47:16 AM PST by SolidWood (Sadr lives. Kill him.)
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US not backing Ankara on Kirkuk - MSNBC
10 posted on 01/17/2007 9:49:43 AM PST by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: SolidWood

But they weren't.


11 posted on 01/17/2007 9:49:54 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr

Unfortunately. But anyway we (the US) have to stand with our interests and allies (the Kurds) and fortunately signs are pointing into this direction.


12 posted on 01/17/2007 9:52:03 AM PST by SolidWood (Sadr lives. Kill him.)
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To: contemplator
Do you believe in the template that a country has the right to attack a country or a group of terrorist(PKK) if they are slipping into your country carrying out attacks?

Alot of things going on there to be concerned about.
13 posted on 01/17/2007 9:52:08 AM PST by FLOutdoorsman (The Man who says it can't be done should not interrupt the man doing it!)
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To: SolidWood

I wonder what NATO will have to say...they have been our allies a lot longer than the Kurds.


14 posted on 01/17/2007 9:54:07 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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Empty Bluffs: Turkey moves towards its own end

Globe Political Editor - by Azad Aslan

Since President Bush expressed his new strategy in Iraq, and outgoing US ambassador of Iraq, Zalmay Khalidzad's message to Turkey not to meddle with the internal affairs of Iraq with regard to Kirkuk issue, Turkey, a country with a sizeable Kurdish community, has intensified its threats against southern Kurdistan and criticized the US administration's ineffectiveness on the issue of PKK presence in Kandil Mountain.

Turkey has two main concerns in Iraq's politics. Firstly, Turkey aims to thwart the recognition of the Kurds as a distinct nation with their own regional government and parliament in a federal Iraq. For Turkey, which deny even the basic rights of the Kurds and has even refused to recognize the existence of the Kurds and their language for decades, to see a Kurdistan government in a federal country whose constitution recognizes the Kurds as a nation is an ultimate threat. An official recognition of the Kurds as nation in Iraq which itself is a member of the UN would, without doubt, bring the status of the Kurds in Turkey into a question. It would be difficult for the Turkish administration to continue its current policy of denying Kurdish existence. It would generate new international legal doors and opportunities for the Kurds to raise their case. After all if five million or so Kurds in Iraq are recognized as a nation why not the 15-20 million Kurds in Turkey. Turkey hopes that political chaos in Iraq and the possibility of US failure in Iraq may prevent such a 'nightmare'.

Secondly, Turkey intends to disrupt the processes of referendum in Kirkuk, which the Iraqi permanent constitution dealt with. It is a well-known fact that the result of the referendum will most likely secure the incorporation of the city into Kurdistan region. The two post-Saddam Iraqi general elections' result in the city of Kirkuk proved that the majority population of the city is constituted by the Kurds. Turkey fears that once the oil-rich city is incorporated into the Kurdistan region a move by the Kurds towards independence will be imminent. Such a move would most likely have immense consequences in the other parts of Kurdistan. The Kurds of the Northern Kurdistan, under the Turkish occupation for the last 8 decades or more, have never hesitated to move towards their freedom and independence. Since the Great Sheikh Said uprising of 1925, one-way or other, the Kurds have been in constant struggle.

Given the history of the last 6 years, particularly the period towards the US war in Iraq, suggestions that Turkish threats are nothing but empty bluff are common and its 'red lines' have been crossed time and time again. Under whatever pretext, whether the presence of PKK guerrillas in southern Kurdistan's mountains or protecting Turkoman community of Kirkuk, the invasion of southern Kurdistan by Turkey is impossible. Turkish military entry into southern Kurdistan would most likely bring the inevitable end of the Turkish Republic. Kurdistan President, Massoud Barzani, responded strongly to the recent menace exhibited by the Turkish Prime Minister about the Kirkuk issue. Barzani warned that should Turkey involve itself in internal affairs of other countries then other countries would have the same right to get involved in the internal affairs of Turkey. Indeed Turkey has as much 'weak points' as that of Iraq. It would be much easier and effective for the Iraqi Kurds to support and ignite their brethren in the north than for Turkey to play the Turkoman card.

Like any other people on earth, the Kurds aspire nothing but to live in peace, stability, freedom and above else independence. Today or tomorrow, independence of Kurdistan will be realized with or without bloodshed.

http://www.kurdishaspect.com/doc0117AA.html


15 posted on 01/17/2007 9:54:16 AM PST by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: TexKat

Turkey not only refused to let us cross their territory in the invasion of Iraq, they strung us along for weeks and then stabbed us in the back--one reason why that part of Iraq has been difficult to pacify after the fall of Baghdad, because it gave Saddam's troops time to melt back into the population with their weapons.

We don't owe them anything at this point. They elected to ally themselves with France. Let them ask the French for some help.


16 posted on 01/17/2007 9:54:25 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: stuartcr; SolidWood

All alliances are temporary.

Nations have interests, not friends.


17 posted on 01/17/2007 9:55:12 AM PST by NeoCaveman (this is an Obamagasm free zone)
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To: TexKat

If Turkey invades Iraq from the rear would Greece help?


18 posted on 01/17/2007 9:56:45 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. .... It's spit on a lefty day.)
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To: SolidWood
Turkey has proven to be a backstabber.

True......I wish I had a better handle on why they are so damned afraid of Kurds...

There is no way to change the fact that the area has a ethnic majority. Turkey should not be involved in this, in the way that they are, and if this is true about a military buildup on the border, it would be the first time since the war, in a major way, and sends terrible signals to Iraq. It may make the integration of the Kurdish region of Iraq less likely and more problematic for Turkey.

Are these people as stupid as they appear to be?

Amazing.....Really amazing.

19 posted on 01/17/2007 9:57:39 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: TexKat
Senator Joe Biden, chairman of the U.S. Senate's powerful Foreign Relations Committee and a presidential candidate, advised the Kurds to refrain from independence and full control over Kirkuk in order to avoid a conflict with Turkey

OOH... stand in awe of the sheer intellectual prowess.

Easy for you to say, Mr. Biden.

20 posted on 01/17/2007 9:58:03 AM PST by Ramius ([sip])
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To: bert

Lol, you are sad!


21 posted on 01/17/2007 9:59:34 AM PST by TexKat (Just because you did not see it or read it, that does not mean it did or did not happen.)
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To: TexKat

When did Kurdistan start taking in boarders?


22 posted on 01/17/2007 10:00:44 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: FLOutdoorsman

"Do you believe in the template that a country has the right to attack a country or a group of terrorist(PKK) if they are slipping into your country carrying out attacks?"

What Turkey is doing with the PPK in Iraq is pretty much the same as what Israel is doing with the Hezzies in Lebanon.


23 posted on 01/17/2007 10:04:16 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz
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To: NeoCaveman

True. It's all relative.


24 posted on 01/17/2007 10:11:39 AM PST by stuartcr (Everything happens as God wants it to.....otherwise, things would be different.)
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To: stuartcr

Nah, it's all objective evaluation and reevalutions based on the information avaiable.


25 posted on 01/17/2007 10:14:59 AM PST by NeoCaveman (this is an Obamagasm free zone)
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To: TexKat
Uh, as I recall, Turkey elected not to send troops into Iraq to help us get rid of Saddam. They aren't helping us to get rid of the terrorists/sectarian violence.

The U.S. should tell Turkey to keep their darned nose out of it, or send in troops to help with the general clean up.

26 posted on 01/17/2007 10:30:28 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Cold Heat
I wish I had a better handle on why they are so damned afraid of Kurds...

I don't know...but Turkey is a land bridge between Europe and the ME....because of that they have their own unique problems...maybe a "Kurdistan" would, geopolitically, cause more internal problems between Turkey's citizens...the choice being.....are we European??...or are we Semitic???...just one of many ways to look at the situation...

27 posted on 01/17/2007 10:42:34 AM PST by Getsmart64
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To: SolidWood

SolidWood you are correct all around. Though they should never have been in N.A.T.O.
The Kurds have been very good allies in this war and the only two reasons I can seen Turkey going through with this is to gain the north Iraqi oil fields for themselves and to keep their own Kurdish population from joinging a united Kurdistan.
Lastly I love your tag line.


28 posted on 01/17/2007 10:42:39 AM PST by Joe Boucher (an enemy of islam)
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To: bert

--If Turkey invades Iraq from the rear would Greece help?--

Why didn't the Greek boy want to join the army?
He didn't want to leave his brother's behind.


29 posted on 01/17/2007 11:12:25 AM PST by rfp1234 (Custom-built for Bill Clinton: the new Toyota Priapus.)
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To: TexKat

it's funny how all these nations like Turkey and Iran and others are comming into this half way through AFTER we have done all the hard work- Attacking others while they've been weakened. Turkey has been chomping at the bit waiting for their chance to invade. President Bush should issue a statement and say that if one turkish foot step over the border to interfere in the war on terror that h4 will bomb them back to the stone age.

The following link does not relate to this thread http://sacredscoop.com


30 posted on 01/17/2007 11:14:15 AM PST by CottShop
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To: Getsmart64
.....are we European??...or are we Semitic???...

Hmmmmmmm.....I don't think that is the problem, but it may be a point that is debated by academics in the region.

Turkey has formed a government that is almost a Islamic based parliamentary rubber stamp. It runs everything through a Islamic filter, and this alone should be worrisome to Europe and Turkish participation in the Euro community.

I think Europe is just wishful thinking, as they seem to do as a matter of policy.

This government is a democratic looking government but functions as a theocracy, from what I can decipher. I base this on the window we got when they denied access to their territory. There was much opposition to the decision, but it was squashed like a bug. It looked like everyone opposed was threatened and silenced.

I think Turkey is a lie. And i think they are getting away with it, but occasionally do something that gets attention, as we see here.

It almost looks like a Iranian proxy.....but I'm not familiar enough with the specifics to make that call. I feel like the wool has been pulled over the eyes of Europe and the West, in regard to this Islamic Republic in Democratic clothing.

31 posted on 01/17/2007 11:19:09 AM PST by Cold Heat
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To: TexKat

Thanks....what a tangle.


32 posted on 01/17/2007 11:53:28 AM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
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To: TexKat

Let me see. Turkey stiffed us on the 4th ID during "Iraqi Freedom". The Kurds not only helped us, they're still thanking us. NATO [some of it] won't even fight the Taliban. The rest of NATO will go with us instead of Europe. It's a no brainer. Screw Turkey. Or, in the name of reasonableness, Turkey waives on Kirkuk - we give them ALL of Cyprus [we owe the Greeks something for the rocket attack, anyway].


33 posted on 01/17/2007 12:19:37 PM PST by PzLdr ("The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am" - Darth Vader)
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To: TexKat
This is not new news. We have read about Turkey's intentions on securing a stable border for a number of years. They had in effect announce a few months back that they intended to start moving a lot of their ground troops to the border area.
On the other hand. Surely they are taking advantage of the IG as it prepares to have to rid Baghdad of terrorist of all forms.
I would be surprised if they actually where to start any major skirmish at this juncture in time. However, with their eyes on making big bucks with the Russians in setting up oil/gas pipelines one never can be sure how far they are prepared to go on the Kurdish issue.
Perhaps their denial into the EU, pissed them off enough to go their own way at this point.
34 posted on 01/17/2007 5:18:12 PM PST by Marine_Uncle
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To: Cold Heat

Actually, despite the somewhat Islamic party currently in power (AKP), Turkey's system of government is still far from a theocracy. Their constitution has strict laws upholding secularism and the separation of religion and state (in some instances even more strict than the U.S. Constitution) - and the AKP cannot override these no matter what they do.

For example, there is a strict ban on women wearing headscarves in all schools, universities, government buildings; no religious schooling is allowed before high school level; there's no laws against divorce or homosexuality, no law against women going topless in public beaches, (and they do so); thousands of Israeli tourists visit each year, etc. Now the current Prime Minister, Erdogan, did actually try to make adultery illegal and limit alcohol sales, but quickly withdrew those proposals due to enormous public outcry.

As for denying access to the 4th ID into Iraq, ironically, Erdogan actually supported the U.S. It came down to a very close vote, but it was out of concern for increased Kurdish nationalism/terrorism, and from EU pressure that the Parliament couldn't muster up the last few votes needed. Of course the Turkish govt. is nowhere near as liberal as Western Europe and won't be anytime soon, but having been to Turkey, it's still a far cry from Iran and much of the Arab world.


35 posted on 01/17/2007 6:17:28 PM PST by L.M.H.
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To: L.M.H.
Thanks for the info....

I was hoping someone could address what I see and explain how they have integrated Islam into a Parliament.

I understand the fears from past Kurdish militarism, but why are they so worried about Iraq's Kurds who appear to me to be on a completely different track then the Turks. Are they worried the Turks Kurds will move to Iraq? It seems they would be happy to unload the troublemakers, if that is what they really are.

I seriously doubt that Iraqi Kurds are interested in attacking turkey, and just because they call the region they are in, Kurdistan, does not mean it is not Iraqi soil.

From what I have read, they seem quite content to be a part of Iraq, but they do want autonomy and Iraq has given it to them.

Why then, is Turkey so damned concerned?

This is what I don't quite fathom. They have been in a panic since day one.

36 posted on 01/17/2007 6:48:01 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: Cold Heat

I think their concern is more over what the Turkish Kurds will do. Militant Kurdish groups lay claim to about a quarter of all of Turkey's lands, which they call "Northern Kurdistan." Basically, they want to annex this huge part of Turkish terrritory into a greater Kurdistan nation.

If Turkey could be sure that an autonomous Iraqi Kurdish state wouldn't encourage Turkish Kurds to start revolting and starting a civil war in Turkey - so they could create a greater Kurdistan nation combined with Iraqi Kurdistan - then they'd be much less concerned over what Iraqi Kurds do. Unfortunately, whether their fears are fully warranted or not, there's huge concern in Turkey that the Turkish Kurds wouldn't be content with having their own mini-nation in Iraq to move to, and that they'd start a civil war to take over Turkish land to incorporate into a much larger Kurdish nation.

In addition, Turkey has dealt with Kurdish terrorists (PKK and other groups) who've been bombimg and killing Turkish and foreign civilians for nearly 30 years, and unfortunately, these terrorist attacks have been getting worse over the past year, which doesn't help to allay their fears.


37 posted on 01/17/2007 8:05:59 PM PST by L.M.H.
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To: L.M.H.
Thanks...I see the situation much more clear.

IMO, it is likely that some accommodation will have to be made eventually, but I would think that this largely depends on how successful the Iraq Kurdish zone is, and how they react to the growing new government. Also, how Turkish Kurds react to the situations as they develop. One can only hope it is done peacefully and the region can remain Turkish and not under the gun..

On another note, they appear to be a very interesting people. It is unfortunate that have experienced oppression in the past and retaliation has left a lot of bad blood. The current situation exists and is dicey, but this is the problem with the tribal nature of the entire Middle East and will be a problem long into the future. Way too much historical memory. Way too many mistakes made.

My own predecessors came from the Baltic's where they too were oppressed religiously and in many other ways. They came to the U.S. in 1923 or so, Thanks again!

38 posted on 01/17/2007 8:22:00 PM PST by Cold Heat
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To: TexKat; Berosus; Cincinatus' Wife; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; FairOpinion; ..

Fascinating mess they've got over there -- the Kurds were hosting Iranians engaged in the attacks on Iraq and the US forces there. The Kurds said they'd known all about it all along. And at least one of the Iranians assassinated leaders from a rival Kurdish faction. Just a coincidence of course. The Iraqi gov't also objects to their capture. And the Turks are threatening to invade (nothing new), while saying that the Kurds -- far and away the most numerous -- have to share power.

Nuke all the bastards, plant the flag, and tell China and Europe that the price of oil is going up.


39 posted on 01/18/2007 12:57:57 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("In theory, theory and practice are the same, but in practice, they're not." -- John Rummel)
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