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Poker is a Game of Luck Not Skill, Court Rules
The London Times ^ | January 17, 2006 | Lucy Bannerman

Posted on 01/17/2007 10:37:25 AM PST by meg88

Poker is a game of luck and not skill, court rules Lucy Bannerman

In the end, good fortune had the stronger hand.

A jury decided yesterday that luck, not skill, played the greater part in poker in a landmark ruling on the status of gambling in Britain.

Derek Kelly, the chairman of a private members’ club in London, lost his fight to make poker exempt from gambling legislation on the grounds that it was a game of skill.

He was found guilty of breaking the 1968 Gaming Act, after hosting two poker games at the Gutshot club, bar and restaurant in Clerkenwell, Central London.

The jury at Snaresbrook Crown Court found him guilty of breaching the Act on December 7, 2004, when a levy was charged on the winnings, and on January 27, 2005, when a fee was charged to take part.

The Act states that a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette, but not games of skill, such as chess and quiz machines.

The trial was seen as a test of whether poker should fall under the remit.

Kelly, 46, from Greystones, County Wicklow, said that he was very disappointed.

“We still will be playing at the Gutshot tonight. We may have to change the way we do it.”

A date for sentencing has been set for February 16.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events; Political Humor/Cartoons; United Kingdom
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Sure, luck is a part of the game, but it is undoubtedly the skill of a player that is the difference maker. Have these UK judges never heard of a stone-cold bluff?
1 posted on 01/17/2007 10:37:27 AM PST by meg88
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To: CSM; jmc813; Phantom Lord; doubled; Graycliff; Tallguy; Lexington Green; ThinkDifferent; ...

Poker Ping!

Freepmail me if you want on the Poker Ping List.

2 posted on 01/17/2007 10:39:50 AM PST by frogjerk (REUTERS: We give smoke and mirrors a bad name)
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To: meg88

That must be why I always lose at poker. Either that or I try to win every time with a pair of twos.


3 posted on 01/17/2007 10:40:32 AM PST by stm (Believe 1% of what you hear in the drive-by media and take half of that with a grain of salt)
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To: meg88

Jailed for Poker...unbelievable.


4 posted on 01/17/2007 10:40:37 AM PST by albie
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To: meg88

I know a judge I'd like to play poker with......


5 posted on 01/17/2007 10:41:16 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (27th Infantry Regiment...cut in half during the Clinton years....Nec Aspera Terrent!!!)
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To: meg88

Sure... that's why you can recognize at least half the final table at any WSOP event. It's mostly skill in that it's a manipulation of risk & percentages. It's hard to sustain luck.


6 posted on 01/17/2007 10:41:31 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: meg88

clearly this judge has never seen me play...


7 posted on 01/17/2007 10:41:32 AM PST by verum ago (The Iranian Space Agency: set phasers to jihad!)
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To: meg88

Pair of jacks to open, but don't raise.


8 posted on 01/17/2007 10:42:23 AM PST by RightWhale
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To: meg88
What do they mean "Not a game of skill?"
Just ask Kenny Rogers, he'll tell ya:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
& know when to run!

9 posted on 01/17/2007 10:42:25 AM PST by cuz_it_aint_their_money
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To: meg88
What do they mean "Not a game of skill?"
Just ask Kenny Rogers, he'll tell ya:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
Know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
& know when to run!

10 posted on 01/17/2007 10:42:34 AM PST by cuz_it_aint_their_money
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To: meg88
Which does the government get more money from, games of chance or games of skill?

The Act states that a licence is needed to host games of chance such as blackjack and roulette, but not games of skill, such as chess and quiz machines.

I think I've found the answer. You can't host a poker game without giving the State a cut, no matter how much luck or skill is needed to win.

11 posted on 01/17/2007 10:42:55 AM PST by KarlInOhio (Samoans: The (low) wage slaves in the Pelosi-Starkist complex.)
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To: cuz_it_aint_their_money

grrrr, lousy rotten double posts!


12 posted on 01/17/2007 10:43:47 AM PST by cuz_it_aint_their_money
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To: meg88

A HAND of poker? More luck than skill.

HOURS of hands of poker? More skill than luck.

Which is why I don't play poker anymore: Everyone can tell when I get a good hand.


13 posted on 01/17/2007 10:44:20 AM PST by pogo101
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To: meg88

I would like to see this judge sit down with 100k of her own money vs. Johnny Chan, Daniel Negreanu, Doyle Brunson and Phil Ivey. Give her twice as many chips to start with. If it's just luck she should have the best chance of winning, right?


14 posted on 01/17/2007 10:45:19 AM PST by Hugin
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To: meg88
Heh, if you think poker's a game of luck, please come play with my dad and his buddies . . .

. . . they will clean you out.

15 posted on 01/17/2007 10:46:43 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: meg88
Did not a California jury decide it was a game of skill, back in the 1850's?
16 posted on 01/17/2007 10:46:51 AM PST by fireforeffect (A kind word and a 2x4, gets you more than just a kind word.)
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To: Hugin
what you said!

My father paid his way through school playing poker (and contract bridge) for money.

17 posted on 01/17/2007 10:47:54 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: pogo101

I entered a WSOP satellite event a couple months ago. $200 buy in. 105 players. Grand prize was a seat and $10K in chips at the 2007 WSOP in Vegas. I made it to the final two tables before I was OUTPLAYED. With luck, you can win a hand. With skill, you can win a tournament.


18 posted on 01/17/2007 10:48:21 AM PST by highimpact
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To: Tallguy
This English judge has obviously never gone all in with Eveyln Ng at the WSOP.


19 posted on 01/17/2007 10:48:35 AM PST by meg88
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To: meg88
A jury decided yesterday that luck, not skill, played the greater part in poker

They obviously don't play with the sharks I play with!

20 posted on 01/17/2007 10:50:20 AM PST by 6ppc (Call Photo Reuters, that's the name, and away goes truth right down the drain. Photo Reuters!)
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To: meg88

When I first started playing I would occationally take down a big pot all due to luck, but more times then not I would get trapped.

Now that I have become a better player (not pro, but better) I find that I win more pots and take down the small ones that finance my stabs at the bigger ones.

On a hand there is luck, but the game requires skill.


21 posted on 01/17/2007 10:50:46 AM PST by CougarGA7 (Posting nonsense since 2001.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Your father is small time. Richard Nixon used his poker winnings while in the Navy to fund his first campaign for congress!


22 posted on 01/17/2007 10:53:05 AM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: meg88

You can't bluff a video poker machine.


23 posted on 01/17/2007 10:57:01 AM PST by LetsRok
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To: meg88

OK then, bowling is gambling, too.

In a league, you pay into a prize pool, use the greatest skill you have, but in the end, you HAVE to be lucky too, in order for the pins to fall.

I gave up bowling for sex years ago. The balls were lighter, and you didn't have to change shoes.


24 posted on 01/17/2007 10:58:41 AM PST by Lokibob (Greatest snow on earth. www.utahweatherlinks.com)
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To: Lokibob
I gave up bowling for sex years ago. The balls were lighter, and you didn't have to change shoes.

Ya, but in bowling you were atleast guaranteed access to all three holes!


Settle down people, I am not interested in your "outrage".

25 posted on 01/17/2007 11:00:03 AM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: meg88
If it were just luck, then everyone would be expected to break even after playing for several hours. In fact, those with the skills walk away with all the chips.

Poker requires several complex skills: reading body and facial language; masking your own body language; assessing probabilities; weighing risk and reward; game theory (i.e. knowing when a bluff could work, and when it wouldn't). In addition, it requires an ability to control emotions. Anyone, who does well playing for matchsticks, but always loses when money is on the table, knows the importance of controlling emotions.
26 posted on 01/17/2007 11:00:18 AM PST by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: Phantom Lord; Lokibob

Those two posts are about the funniest things Ive read all week.


27 posted on 01/17/2007 11:04:47 AM PST by CougarGA7 (Posting nonsense since 2001.)
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To: USFRIENDINVICTORIA

With the ability to count cards on multiple decks, Blackjack also becomes a game of skill.


28 posted on 01/17/2007 11:07:25 AM PST by meg88
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To: CougarGA7

Don't forget that you always had to clean your balls in bowling and you never knew who was sticking thier fingers in your balls when you were not looking....I also quit because my children were born and I decided a 202 average didn't mean much any more.


29 posted on 01/17/2007 11:09:50 AM PST by oust the louse
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To: oust the louse

Thats a good reason too.

I quit bowling because I was throwing the ball right handed with a left handed step. You glance the ball off your ankle every now and then doing that.


30 posted on 01/17/2007 11:15:49 AM PST by CougarGA7 (Posting nonsense since 2001.)
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To: AnAmericanMother
Heh, if you think poker's a game of luck, please come play with my dad and his buddies . . .
. . . they will clean you out.

If you look around the table and can't spot the sucker..

You're it...

31 posted on 01/17/2007 11:19:40 AM PST by tpaine (" My most important function on the Supreme Court is to tell the majority to take a walk." -Scalia <)
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To: LetsRok

The bluff aside...

You're assuming the machine is even playing poker. It may be showing you a hand that looks something like, and wins/loses like, poker - but that doesn't mean it's poker.

It may actually be playing bingo. I kid you not: some jurisdictions only allow bingo, so the machine's maker calls in a mathematician to apply topological transformations to bingo which make it look like poker.

Even if it's playing "poker" (not mutant bingo), there's probably other distortions, like shuffling the deck after every hand.

(I worked on 'em for a while.)


32 posted on 01/17/2007 11:21:27 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: LetsRok

But the video poker rules are already stacked against the player to begin with.


33 posted on 01/17/2007 11:23:57 AM PST by meg88
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When all players have the same skill, poker becomes a game of luck. Conversely, when all players have the same luck, poker becomes a game of skill.

Poker is defined as a game of luck or skill according to the whims of governing authorities, and depends on how they can best steal your winnings.

34 posted on 01/17/2007 11:24:09 AM PST by vollmond (Sorry, Mom, the mob has spoken!)
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To: Phantom Lord
My daddy is small time and happy!

He decided years ago that he wouldn't run for office . . . he just managed other people's campaigns. Just local state house and judicial races.

I don't believe any of his candidates ever lost . . . those poker skills you know.

35 posted on 01/17/2007 11:24:13 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: vollmond
My grandmother was a bridge demon, played duplicate.

Duplicate takes out the element of luck, since everybody plays the same hands.

36 posted on 01/17/2007 11:25:46 AM PST by AnAmericanMother ((Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment)))
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To: meg88
Deal me in.
37 posted on 01/17/2007 11:36:44 AM PST by rightinthemiddle (Without the Media, the Left and Islamofacists are Nothing.)
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To: rightinthemiddle
I prefer Clonie Gowen...


38 posted on 01/17/2007 12:18:47 PM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: Phantom Lord

She as Miss Teen Oklahoma, you know.

Recently divorced?


39 posted on 01/17/2007 12:23:28 PM PST by rightinthemiddle (Without the Media, the Left and Islamofacists are Nothing.)
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To: meg88
But the video poker rules are already stacked against the player to begin with.

Not necessarily. It depends on the game and its paytable. It is true that few VP games are at or close to 100% payout (over time). Most fall in the mid 90% range. That 5% house edge will take its toll in short order. The other parts of the equation are your skill level and strategy knowledge for a particular game, coupled with whatever benefits you receive for playing.

If you pick the right game with the right paytable, know the strategy cold and can play for long durations with little or no errors, coupled with a good slot club payback percentage for your play, etc... you can stay even or a little ahead in the long run. Anything can happen in the short term. You can lose money in multiple playing sessions on a machine with a good pay table or win big with your first hand on a machine with a lousy paytable.

40 posted on 01/17/2007 12:23:34 PM PST by TADSLOS (Iran is in the IED exporting business. Time to shut them down.)
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To: rightinthemiddle
From the full tilt commercial...

Asain men with heavy accents: Ahhhh, Oklahoma!

She has been divorced for a while from what I understand.

41 posted on 01/17/2007 12:29:36 PM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: meg88

Ping for later reference.


42 posted on 01/17/2007 12:58:23 PM PST by NotJustAnotherPrettyFace
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To: highimpact

How long did the tournament take before you lost?


43 posted on 01/17/2007 12:58:29 PM PST by art_rocks
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To: art_rocks

It didn't take long. I think I was sitting down for about 3 hours. They kept raising the blinds every 30-45 minutes. Everybody started with $1500 in chips, with $25/$50 blinds. By the time I lost my last hand, blinds were $500/$1000. The tourney started at 7pm, and was over by 11pm.


44 posted on 01/17/2007 1:18:54 PM PST by highimpact
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To: highimpact

Sounds like the winner of that Satellite got screwed by the organizer. $200 buy in and 105 players is $21,000 in prize money. The main event has a $10,000 buy in. Several others have $10,000 buy ins, but most range from $2K to $5K. Where did the other $11,000 go?


45 posted on 01/17/2007 1:23:44 PM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: Phantom Lord
The organizer was in it for a profit, and that fact wasn't hidden from anybody. The organizer hosts these tournaments all over the country, and I imagine he makes a good living at it. The total take was more than $21,000 because players could buy an extra $1500 in chips for another $200 (unlimited re-buys within the first hour). Some people spent $1000 on re-buys. There was a 2nd place prize (laptop PC) and a 3rd place prize (plasma TV).

I expect the total take was somewhere around $35K. However, there was also the cost of renting the convention center, a hosted bar, a staff of about 15 (dealers, servers, etc.), and a catered dinner featuring shrimp and prime rib. All in all, it was a very nice event and a lot of fun. I don't mind that somebody made money from putting it all together.

46 posted on 01/17/2007 1:33:30 PM PST by highimpact
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To: fireforeffect
A loose quote of Doc Holiday from Tombstone:
"I said poker was an honest profession..."
In reference to Faro, which is similar to Baccarat.
47 posted on 01/17/2007 1:42:06 PM PST by BlueNgold (Feed the Tree .....)
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To: highimpact

That is far different from most Satelittes and makes perfect sense.


48 posted on 01/17/2007 1:43:47 PM PST by Phantom Lord (Fall on to your knees for the Phantom Lord)
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To: fireforeffect
I am not familiar with that one, but back in the 1970's the IRS was forced to consider poker a business for tax purposes. One of the big name players was involved. Is anyone familiar with that case?
49 posted on 01/17/2007 1:53:58 PM PST by Buffalo Head (Illigitimi non carborundum)
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To: meg88

They should read the short story by Mark Twain called Science versus Luck. Boy would I like to be on that jury!


50 posted on 01/17/2007 2:00:06 PM PST by Geostorm
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