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Ethanol Boom Helps Cut $31 Billion From Farm Subsidies
NewsMax.com ^ | Jan. 24, 2007 | staff

Posted on 01/24/2007 12:59:25 PM PST by kellynla

WASHINGTON -- The fuel ethanol boom and high crop prices will cut U.S. farm subsidy spending by $31 billion through 2016, a dramatic drop in the cost of the farm program, the Congressional Budget Office said on Wednesday.

In a semiannual report, CBO estimated farm subsidies would cost $10 billion this year and the annual cost "will range between $8 billion and $10 billion over the next decade."

The forecasts are expected to constrain this year's overhaul of farm policy by Congress. The 2002 farm law, which allocates about $20 billion a year on farm supports, expires in the fall.

Large U.S. farm groups want to maintain the current crop support system. The American Farm Bureau Federation asked on Dec. 6 that Congress and the Bush administration assure that funding "be sustained at levels authorized in the 2002 farm bill with adjustment for inflation."

Congress has a target of agreeing by April 15 on a spending outline. Leaders of the House and Senate Agriculture committees say they will not begin work on farm subsidy programs until it is clear how much money will be available.

"Projected spending . . . has declined by $31 billion for the 2007-2016 period," said the CBO report. "That reduction primarily reflects lower income-support payments to farmers for major crops because commodity prices are now expected to be higher than previously anticipated.

"In particular, CBO has reduced its estimates of support payments to corn producers as a result of stronger demand for ethanol."

Corn prices have doubled since last fall and are the highest in a decade. Soybean and wheat prices rose as well, pulled up by corn.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Government
KEYWORDS: agriculture; anwr; commodities; energy; ethanol; farmers; farmsubsidies; keystonexl; mtba; opec; subsidies
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1 posted on 01/24/2007 12:59:28 PM PST by kellynla
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To: kellynla

and consumers pay either way.


2 posted on 01/24/2007 1:02:10 PM PST by flashbunny (If the founding fathers were alive today, they'd be plucking feathers and boiling tar.)
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To: kellynla
Yeah, but I wonder how much that is offset by increased spending on ethanol subsidies.
3 posted on 01/24/2007 1:02:30 PM PST by curiosity
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To: flashbunny
Yup. Ain't no free lunch.

George Bush has a Rendezvous with Density
4 posted on 01/24/2007 1:04:00 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: kellynla
Corn has doubled in price in the past year. From the reports I have read, it is largely due to Ethanol production. Either way, consumers pay the price.
5 posted on 01/24/2007 1:05:07 PM PST by devane617 (It's McCain and a Rat -- Now what?)
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To: kellynla
Hey, I got an idea to cut farm subsidies even further:

Eliminate them
6 posted on 01/24/2007 1:05:48 PM PST by Lusis ("Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.")
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To: flashbunny

and if you don't know that we are paying BIG TIME by using gasoline;
you are the most naive person on the planet! LMAO

the difference is by coming up with alternative sources of energy;
we are getting off our foreign oil dependency.


7 posted on 01/24/2007 1:08:49 PM PST by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: SpaceBar

Not a big deal, I don't suppose, but the author of the article you link to can't tell a stone cliff from a pile of corn.


8 posted on 01/24/2007 1:09:22 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: curiosity

54 cents per gallon. Header is deceptive, should read "Ethanol Boom Shifts Subsidies."


9 posted on 01/24/2007 1:10:12 PM PST by appeal2
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To: appeal2
54 cents per gallon. Header is deceptive, should read "Ethanol Boom Shifts Subsidies."

You said it.

10 posted on 01/24/2007 1:12:27 PM PST by curiosity
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To: SpaceBar

I should have mentioned, a corn pile has an angle of repose of 23 degrees.


11 posted on 01/24/2007 1:14:45 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: kellynla
It occured to me today that I should look for the Tennessee Valley Authority to enter this business. They are in the energy business and it seems a natural for them.

They have coal fired and nuclear power plants all up and down the Tennessee River valley that extends into Alabama and Kentucky.They also have extensive research facilities in Alabama to study the problem. They could easily set up stills to run off the spent steam used to turn the turbines. The cost of the heat and steam would be free. There are beacoup acres of farmland to raise corn or other fermentable crop.

12 posted on 01/24/2007 1:16:09 PM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. .... It's spit on a lefty day.)
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To: SpaceBar; devane617

......Ain't no free lunch......

Well almost free..... see my post 12 below


13 posted on 01/24/2007 1:19:31 PM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. .... It's spit on a lefty day.)
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To: kellynla

Rush said something about the prices of corn tortillas in Mexico have started going up and the locals are getting restless.


14 posted on 01/24/2007 1:19:48 PM PST by muleskinner
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To: Mr. Lucky

Freestanding angles of internal friction of particulate matter aside, what part of the article do you disagree with?


15 posted on 01/24/2007 1:20:07 PM PST by SpaceBar
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To: bert

Sounds reasonable to me, but whatever the sources whether they be ethanol, biodiesel, nuclear or whatever; we've been down this road since the seventies and it's time to FINALLY get off the dime and start resolving the problem!

If we had done in the seventies what Brazil started doing;
we would be totally self-sufficient today as Brazil is.

Personally, I quit commuting in 1979, started working out of my house and never looked back.


16 posted on 01/24/2007 1:25:57 PM PST by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: kellynla

.....I quit commuting in 1979, started working out of my house and never looked back.....

I downsized my company to "me" in 1994. My little business has grown and I no longer commute. However, I have developed clients far flung places and drive in excess of 500 miles a month to serve them. go figure



17 posted on 01/24/2007 1:30:28 PM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. .... It's spit on a lefty day.)
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To: bert

--They could easily set up stills to run off the spent steam used to turn the turbines.--

A little research would show that the temperature of the 'spent steam' in not adequate to run a still.


18 posted on 01/24/2007 1:37:24 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: curiosity
I wonder how much that is offset by increased spending on ethanol subsidies.

I wonder why we have to wonder about it. Seems like they ought to be telling us up front.

19 posted on 01/24/2007 1:39:24 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: All

As far as energy independance, we are smart enough in this country to do it. We just haven't had the will for years.

As far as farm subsidies, not every farmer participates because it's a one-size-fits-all program but doesn't work for all farms. DH and I participated in the Milk Income Loss Program for about 18 months. It just prolonged the agony until we sold the dairy cows.

After that, it's been all free market. Since we don't have highly productive corn ground we've gone into specialized products -- hay for horses; and freezer beef.

I hate to hear people complaining about farm prices, though, especially when almost everyone in our country looks pretty fat and happy ;-)

For perspective -- we are basically living on DH's income on straight sales. We aren't living high on the hog, but that's our own fault for the choices we made. Not blaming anybody else -- not the government and not consumers.

Ann


20 posted on 01/24/2007 1:45:39 PM PST by Cloverfarm (Children are a blessing ...)
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To: muleskinner

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1764992/posts


21 posted on 01/24/2007 1:46:17 PM PST by Sybeck1 (Southaven Mississippi Freeper)
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To: tacticalogic

--I wonder why we have to wonder about it. Seems like they ought to be telling us up front.--

Sometimes the info is not automatically pushed to you. You have to actually type a few words into google.

http://zfacts.com/p/63.html


22 posted on 01/24/2007 1:48:59 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: SpaceBar

Good essay.


23 posted on 01/24/2007 1:51:57 PM PST by em2vn
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To: kellynla

Are you off in your own little world there?

Ethanol is inefficient. Instead of mandating it and driving up prices artificially, we should be drilling for our own gas.

But keep dreaming that ethanol is the answer to any question except "how do we line the pockets of our campaign contributers AND pander towards the iowa primaries????"


24 posted on 01/24/2007 1:57:08 PM PST by flashbunny (If the founding fathers were alive today, they'd be plucking feathers and boiling tar.)
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To: UpAllNight
I know.

It just peeves me to pay good money to get told half truths.

25 posted on 01/24/2007 2:02:13 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: devane617
I'd rather pay a higher market price dictated by demand than pay a lower price that's being artificially kept low with tax dollars.

I trust the free market to determine prices much more than I trust the government doing so.

26 posted on 01/24/2007 2:06:01 PM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: flashbunny

"drilling for our own gas?"

uhhhhhhh...we drill oil and refine gasoline.
And I thought you were just naive.

gezzzzzzzzz the I.Q. level gets lower by the minute around here. LMAO



27 posted on 01/24/2007 2:19:16 PM PST by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: SpaceBar
Frankly, I don't care much for his intemperate tone. It (along with his inability to tell a rock from a corn kernel) makes the article less credible.

But, at your request I got past all the stuff about Clintonistas being slobs to the part about ethanol.

He makes up his facts.

For instance, the ethanol blending credit is $.53 per gallon, not $.053; it is paid to oil companies, not farmers or ethanol producers; the increase in corn prices has eliminated the price support subsidies; his numbers have no support; and so forth.

28 posted on 01/24/2007 3:01:40 PM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: devane617
Corn has doubled in price in the past year.

Look at some other grains, it is not just corn. It must be more than ethanol.

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CN/W

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/BA/W

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/OA/W

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/RI/W

http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/CW/W

29 posted on 01/24/2007 8:04:31 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: kellynla
If we had done in the seventies what Brazil started doing;
we would be totally self-sufficient today as Brazil is.

Yep, we just need to drill our oil like they did.


30 posted on 01/24/2007 8:07:24 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: appeal2

"54 cents per gallon."

That tax credit has actually dropped to 51 cents a gallon now, and that's for each gallon of pure ethanol blended with gasoline. So the blender gets a 5.1 cent tax credit for each gallon of E10 he blends. The farmers don't get this "blender's credit," and in most cases the ethanol producers don't get it either because they generally aren't the ones blending the ethanol in with gasoline. The blender is generally going to be the gasoline/oil company that provides your gas station with gasoline. No doubt the tax credit does help lower the price at the pump so the farmers and ethanol producers do benefit from this tax credit in a 'round about way.


31 posted on 01/24/2007 8:55:56 PM PST by TKDietz (")
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To: UpAllNight
"A little research would show that the temperature of the 'spent steam' in not adequate to run a still."

Distillation requires a temperature in the range of 172 to 174 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on the altitude and barometric pressure I think. Distillation under a vacuum requires much less heat. Steam could very well be hot enough to use for distillation. Even if it did not provide enough heat on its own it could at least provide a substantial amount of the heat such that far less added energy is required for distillation.
32 posted on 01/24/2007 9:03:20 PM PST by TKDietz (")
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To: flashbunny
I hope corn gets so expensive that food processors stop putting high fructos corn syrup in every danged thing in the grocery store!
33 posted on 01/24/2007 9:05:37 PM PST by Ditter
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To: Ditter

hmmm-coke with real sugar. I've forgotten what that used to taste like.


34 posted on 01/24/2007 9:10:26 PM PST by flashbunny (If the founding fathers were alive today, they'd be plucking feathers and boiling tar.)
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To: flashbunny
I have heard that someplace still makes Coke with sugar. Was it Mexico? I can't remember.

I am allergic to corn and corn syrup in almost everything makes shopping tedious because I have to read all the labels.
35 posted on 01/24/2007 9:13:39 PM PST by Ditter
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To: kellynla

You are in your own little world with your clever quips.

Wow, I wrote down gas instead of oil while I was busy working on something else at the same time. I guess that proves all your points correct and everyone else wrong! Tell your teacher you get a gold star tomorrow!

Another great feature of the ethanol lobby. Avoid science. Avoid facts. Avoid market forces. Ignore consumer preference. Boil it down to soundbites and fearmongering.


36 posted on 01/24/2007 9:13:54 PM PST by flashbunny (If the founding fathers were alive today, they'd be plucking feathers and boiling tar.)
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To: Ditter

I do believe it's mexico. Maybe some of our guest workers could smuggle some of the good stuff across the border.


37 posted on 01/24/2007 9:15:49 PM PST by flashbunny (If the founding fathers were alive today, they'd be plucking feathers and boiling tar.)
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To: muleskinner

On another thread where illegal workers are complaining about the work disappearing after crops were frozen, it was mentioned it's too bad the workers didn't stay in Mexico and grow corn.

They could be making a fortune right about now making tortillas.


38 posted on 01/24/2007 9:18:27 PM PST by Syncro
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To: Ditter

amen


39 posted on 01/24/2007 9:21:00 PM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: TKDietz

This is actually a subsidy that makes some sense then. Since the infrastructure for current refining is useless for Ethanol. It has to be blended at the terminal not at the refinery which at least temporarily screwed up the distribution of gasoline in the US. But until cellulosic ethanol achieves widespread production, ethanol will be a loser on a purely economic basis.


40 posted on 01/25/2007 12:13:39 AM PST by appeal2
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To: kellynla
Ethanol: pie in the sky. Can't last. They are raping the soil.The soil can't be so intensely cultivated for very many years with out destroying the minerals in it. Fertilizer will not bring it back.
41 posted on 01/25/2007 4:44:31 AM PST by G-Man 1
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To: TKDietz

--Steam could very well be hot enough to use for distillation.--

I repeat: "A little research would show that the temperature of the 'spent steam' in not adequate to run a still."


42 posted on 01/25/2007 7:11:43 AM PST by UpAllNight
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To: thackney

Yep, I agree.

As I have repeatedly said, whatever we can do to get off our foreign oil dependency. Whether it be more drilling, solar, coal, nuclear, biodiesel, ethanol and/or a combination of all. Lets "get 'er dun!" LOL


43 posted on 01/25/2007 7:27:46 AM PST by kellynla (Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots! Semper Fi!)
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To: G-Man 1

The intensity of tillage has historically decreased with the increase in corn yields. Put another way, I get about four times the yield off my best corn field than my grandfather did when he was my age, but the soil is disturbed only about a quarter as much.


44 posted on 01/25/2007 7:33:20 AM PST by Mr. Lucky
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To: UpAllNight
Again you say nothing. How hot is the steam after it leaves the turbines at a nuclear power plant? It's several hundred degrees Fahrenheit when it goes through the turbines and has to be cooled and condensed before it can be reintroduced into the system. Distillation only requires temperatures less than 175 degrees Fahrenheit, depending on atmospheric conditions. A slight vacuum lowers the required temperature a lot. You can buy home stills for fuel production with vacuums incorporated that distill at 130 some odd degrees. I did a quick Google search but did not find anything that gives the temperature of steam from a nuclear power plant after it leaves the turbine but before it is cooled and reintroduced into the system. I doubt though very seriously that this super hot steam loses most all of it's heat as it passes through the turbines.

I doubt they ever use steam from nuclear power plants to heat stills in ethanol plants. The ethanol plants would have to be right next to the nuclear power plants and it seems like that would cause some safety issues, something you really don't want when dealing with highly radioactive materials. My uneducated bet is that the steam coming from the turbines would be hot enough to distill alcohol. If not it would come close to being hot enough under normal conditions and would be hot enough if the distillation took place under a vacuum, or the waste heat could at least partially fire the stills. None of this really matters though because it is unlikely that they'll ever build ethanol plants right up against nuclear power plants. They may find uses for this waste heat though and we may very well see waste heat from factories or coal or gas fired powerplants being used to provide all or part of the energy for ethanol plants.
45 posted on 01/25/2007 10:21:34 AM PST by TKDietz (")
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To: TKDietz

--. My uneducated bet is that the steam coming from the turbines would be hot enough to distill alcohol. --

My educated bet is that it is not.

--did not find anything that gives the temperature of steam from a nuclear power plant after it leaves the turbine but before it is cooled and reintroduced into the system.--

The link below gives the parameters of the cycle. It looks messy but down at the end there is a diagram, steam cycle on temperature and enthalpy. Look at the temperature at the exit of the turbine. About 80 degrees. That is what you would have to work with for your still.

http://www.roymech.co.uk/Related/Thermos/Thermos_Steam_Turbine.html

It is NOT "cooled" after it leaves the turbine. The thermo cycle requires it to


46 posted on 01/25/2007 10:32:08 AM PST by UpAllNight
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To: UpAllNight

It is NOT "cooled" after it leaves the turbine. The thermo cycle requires it to to be condensed and then REHEATED to over 400 degrees before going back to the steam generator.


47 posted on 01/25/2007 10:33:34 AM PST by UpAllNight
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To: UpAllNight

That's 80 degrees Celsius, which works out to about 176 degrees Fahrenheit, plenty hot for distillation.


48 posted on 01/25/2007 10:36:56 AM PST by TKDietz (")
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To: TKDietz

Yeah, except that most of the heat in the spent steam already goes back into the system, pre-heating the feedwater into the steam generators, helping to increase the efficiency of the system.


49 posted on 01/25/2007 10:54:48 AM PST by -YYZ-
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To: -YYZ-

That makes sense.


50 posted on 01/25/2007 10:56:56 AM PST by TKDietz (")
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