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Antievolution bill in Mississippi
NCSE ^ | January 24, 2007 | Staff

Posted on 01/25/2007 10:25:54 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger

Mississippi's House Bill 625, introduced by Representative Mike Lott (R-District 104) on January 9, 2007, and referred to the House Committee on Education, would provide, if enacted, "The school board of a school district may allow the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the schools within the district. However, if the theory of evolution is required to be taught as part of the school district's science curriculum, in order to provide students with a comprehensive education in science, the school board also must include the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the science curriculum."

A similar provision was part of 2005's House Bill 953, of which Lott was the chief sponsor; HB 953 died in committee on January 31, 2006.


TOPICS: Extended News; Philosophy; US: Mississippi
KEYWORDS: creation; crevolist; darwinismsnotscience; evolution; idjunkscience; idlosesagain; intelligentdesign; yecapologetics
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This is a news thread about proposed state legislation affecting an issue of a political, scientific and religious nature.

Let's please not turn it into another flamefest.

1 posted on 01/25/2007 10:25:56 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; Havoc; ...


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me

2 posted on 01/25/2007 10:26:13 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

"Let's please not turn it into another flamefest."

then you shouldnt even post it....now it is a one way street here and you know it. if an evo flames a creo...they get 'moderated'...but the inverse is not true.


3 posted on 01/25/2007 10:29:16 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

"don't ever change!" :)


4 posted on 01/25/2007 10:30:24 AM PST by NonValueAdded (Pelosi, the call was for Comity, not Comedy. But thanks for the laughs. StarKisses, NVA.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

You mean if someone wants to evolve, they will have to go to Alabama to do it?


5 posted on 01/25/2007 10:31:09 AM PST by Utahrd
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To: DaveLoneRanger
In that vein, as evolution is wholly compatible with Christianity and other major faiths, let evolution be taught as science, and creation be taught as religion.
6 posted on 01/25/2007 10:31:17 AM PST by Buck W. (If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger; somniferum; flying Elvis; MagnoliaMS; MississippiMan; vetvetdoug; NerdDad; ...

Mississippi ping


7 posted on 01/25/2007 10:32:46 AM PST by WKB (A wasted day is a day in which we have not laughed!)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

If schools were to be secular, they should remove all teaching about origins.


8 posted on 01/25/2007 10:36:33 AM PST by DungeonMaster (Acts 17:11 also known as sola scriptura.)
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To: Vaquero

My job is to post news and engage in rational debate from the creationist perspective. If you have an issue with the way the moderators conduct their job, you should take it up with them.


9 posted on 01/25/2007 10:39:21 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

My job is to post news and engage in rational debate from the creationist perspective.






How does it pay?


10 posted on 01/25/2007 10:40:40 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Right...whatever you say.


11 posted on 01/25/2007 10:41:21 AM PST by Vaquero ("An armed society is a polite society" Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
The bill doesn't sound "antievolution" to me. You'd think a scientific organization would use more sound logical reasoning in it's arguments. Presenting a different view in addition to requiring teaching evolution is hardly antievolution.
12 posted on 01/25/2007 10:41:25 AM PST by untrained skeptic
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To: DaveLoneRanger

"...if the theory of evolution is required to be taught as part of the school district's science curriculum, in order to provide students with a comprehensive education in science, the school board also must include the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the science curriculum.""

I think that's fair. When I was in Gubmit school, the only thing ever taught pertaining to the origin of life was evolution...there was never an alternate presented.


13 posted on 01/25/2007 10:43:22 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: Buck W.

So long as evolution is taught as theory and not established fact, I have no problem with it. I don't even see the need to push alternate theories on the students.

But at its basic definition, if a Christian believes God played any role in the creation of the universe, (s)he is a creationist. If God came out of the same "Big Bang", then that is an alternate theory.

I find a dangerously slippy slope in teaching evolution as fact. It is how we arrive at teachers pushing man-made global warming scares on children as indisputable fact (see recent outrage with the Weather Channel and with schools screening An Inconvenient Truth). It is how we arrive at schools teaching homosexuality as a normal genetic variation. It is how we arrive at schools teaching that abortion is not immoral because a fetus is not alive.


14 posted on 01/25/2007 10:43:28 AM PST by weegee (No third term. Hillary Clinton's 2008 election run presents a Constitutional Crisis.)
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To: weegee

"I find a dangerously slippy slope in teaching evolution as fact. It is how we arrive at teachers pushing man-made global warming scares on children as indisputable fact (see recent outrage with the Weather Channel and with schools screening An Inconvenient Truth). It is how we arrive at schools teaching homosexuality as a normal genetic variation. It is how we arrive at schools teaching that abortion is not immoral because a fetus is not alive."

Good post.


15 posted on 01/25/2007 10:45:54 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: untrained skeptic
Presenting a different view in addition to requiring teaching evolution is hardly antievolution.

Pretending that pseudoscience is somehow equivalent is demeaning to real science.

16 posted on 01/25/2007 10:50:18 AM PST by highball ("I never should have switched from scotch to martinis." -- the last words of Humphrey Bogart)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Completely unconstitutional. But undoubtedly Mississippians are tired of being thought of as evolutionary throwbacks.

Disclosure: I once lived in Starkville.

17 posted on 01/25/2007 10:50:44 AM PST by megatherium
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To: DaveLoneRanger

We all know that this legislation will in all probability die before it ever even makes it to a vote, and in the incredibly unlikely case that it does somehow get passed it will be immediately challenged as being unconstitutional and the courts will agree. This guy is wasting time and money.


18 posted on 01/25/2007 10:51:01 AM PST by 49th (This space for rent.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Where does Mississippi rank in terms of education?

Anyone?


19 posted on 01/25/2007 10:52:31 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Vaquero

You own the public skools, isn't that enough?


20 posted on 01/25/2007 10:53:55 AM PST by streetpreacher (What if you're wrong?)
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To: durasell
Where does Mississippi rank in terms of education?

49th, I believe (Thanks, Arizona!).

Astrology and Alchemy curricula are also *dangerously underfunded*. Please, teach the controversy.

21 posted on 01/25/2007 10:58:19 AM PST by Wormwood (Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderate)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Neither creationism, or ID is science. Creationism is a wholly unscientific religious story composed mostly of doctrine. ID is junk science. It is religiously motivted hand waiving over complex biological processes and ignores the physics of the various interactionns. Lotts Bill is a proposal for an unconstituitonal law on first Amendment grounds. It is also an coercive attempt to corrupt science with non-science.


22 posted on 01/25/2007 11:00:45 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Wormwood

So, it really doesn't matter -- either way, the kids are pretty much doomed. So, let'em teach what they want.


23 posted on 01/25/2007 11:00:55 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

OK. No flames here.

Creationism is not science. It should not be taught in science class.

Was that gentle enough?


24 posted on 01/25/2007 11:01:24 AM PST by dmz
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To: Buck W.

And any meteorologist who doesn't tow the party line on "climate change" should lose their meteorological certification.


25 posted on 01/25/2007 11:01:52 AM PST by streetpreacher (What if you're wrong?)
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To: spunkets

"Lotts Bill is a proposal for an unconstituitonal law on first Amendment grounds. It is also an coercive attempt to corrupt science with non-science."

Farbeit from us to actually have an opinion about the matter...regardless of the construct you put it in. There is nothing coersive about it. the first ammendment you refer to works both ways....we live in a free speech society...unless of course we went communist some wher along the way.

I would argue that some arguments on the Evo side are junk (or non-) science as well.


26 posted on 01/25/2007 11:05:33 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: Buck W.
In that vein, as evolution is wholly compatible with Christianity and other major faiths, let evolution be taught as science, and creation be taught as religion.

Evolution is in direct opposition to Judean/Christian belief. They are incompatible.
27 posted on 01/25/2007 11:06:20 AM PST by rjsimmon
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To: durasell
Where does Mississippi rank in terms of education?

If this bill passes Mississippi will jump from 50th to 1st place in education!

28 posted on 01/25/2007 11:06:28 AM PST by trumandogz (Rudy G 2008: The "G" Stands For Gun Grabbing & Gay Lovin.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Mississippi's House Bill 625

Seems reasonable to me.

29 posted on 01/25/2007 11:07:58 AM PST by onedoug
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To: DaveLoneRanger

As it should be. If you teach one religion (evolution) than the other religion (creationism) should also be taught.


30 posted on 01/25/2007 11:11:59 AM PST by taxesareforever (Never forget Matt Maupin)
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To: trumandogz

From The Economist, Jan 4.

The Census Bureau's 2005 survey shows that Mississippi has America's highest poverty rate, 21.3%; the national average is 13.3%. It also has the lowest median household annual income: $32,938, compared with $46,242 nationally. The Department of Agriculture's Economic Research Service found that only 16.9% of Mississippians completed college in 2000 compared with 24.4% nationally, making Mississippi the third worst-educated state after West Virginia and Arkansas. The state has awful rates of diabetes and obesity.


31 posted on 01/25/2007 11:12:44 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: Buck W.
In that vein, as evolution is wholly compatible incompatible with Christianity science....

There. Fixed it.

32 posted on 01/25/2007 11:13:10 AM PST by Theo (Global warming "scientists." Pro-evolution "scientists." They're both wrong.)
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To: taxesareforever

"As it should be. If you teach one religion (evolution) than the other religion (creationism) should also be taught."

Amen to that.


33 posted on 01/25/2007 11:14:54 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: scottdeus12
We do live in a free-speech society. However, legislating a requirement that public schools teach creationism and ID along with evolution doesn't fall under the "free-speech" clause in the first amendment. It is clearly, however, an attempt to establish a religion within a public institution. If the bill included a demand to teach every single creation myth from every single religion, THEN it wouldn't be unconstitutional. Since it singles out one it most certainly is.

I would honestly love to watch teachers teach the story of Adam, the apple, and the walking snake along side the story of Odin, the frost giant, and the giant cow. I think it puts them both in perspective.
34 posted on 01/25/2007 11:16:18 AM PST by 49th (This space for rent.)
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To: spunkets
ID is junk science. It is religiously motivated hand waiving over complex biological processes...

Do you ever get similarly exorcised over atheistically motivated hand waiving over complex biological processes?

Cordially,

35 posted on 01/25/2007 11:17:50 AM PST by Diamond
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I for one hope it passes. It will be challenged in court and overturned. But at least the state has the money necessary to appeal it all the way to the SC where this nonsense can be dispached once and for all.


36 posted on 01/25/2007 11:18:42 AM PST by edsheppa
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To: durasell

Throwing evolution, science and modern medicine out of Mississippi will do noting but help conditions in the state.


37 posted on 01/25/2007 11:18:48 AM PST by trumandogz (Rudy G 2008: The "G" Stands For Gun Grabbing & Gay Lovin.)
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To: 49th
We do live in a free-speech society. However, legislating a requirement that public schools teach creationism and ID along with evolution doesn't fall under the "free-speech" clause in the first amendment. It is clearly, however, an attempt to establish a religion within a public institution. If the bill included a demand to teach every single creation myth from every single religion, THEN it wouldn't be unconstitutional. Since it singles out one it most certainly is.

Not by definition. The establishment clause has been abused and distorted almost beyond recognition and would be a stretch in this case. The bill proposes that if one theory were mandated, then the opposing theory must be taught. There is no specific religion being established.
38 posted on 01/25/2007 11:21:00 AM PST by rjsimmon
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To: trumandogz

I'm curious as to the reasoning behind this conclusion


39 posted on 01/25/2007 11:22:47 AM PST by asburygrad
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To: asburygrad
Sarcasm.....
40 posted on 01/25/2007 11:24:09 AM PST by trumandogz (Rudy G 2008: The "G" Stands For Gun Grabbing & Gay Lovin.)
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To: DungeonMaster
If schools were to be secular, they should remove all teaching about origins.

That doesn't follow. First, if the origin theory (and I'm assuming we're talking about origin of species here) is scientific, why shouldn't a secular school teach it? Second, even if the origin theory is religious, it seems to me it could be taught about in secular schools so long as it is not advocated and the teaching doesn't have the effect of advocating it. I agree that may be a difficult line to draw but I think it can be drawn.

41 posted on 01/25/2007 11:24:55 AM PST by edsheppa
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To: rjsimmon

But it's only giving ONE alternate theory. By doing that it is implicitly stating that the only two possiblities are either evolution or Christian creation. That is most certainly the establishment of religion. If you want creationism in schools, you better be prepared to accept Vedic hymns and Odin and his giant cow too.


42 posted on 01/25/2007 11:26:04 AM PST by 49th (This space for rent.)
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To: 49th

"It is clearly, however, an attempt to establish a religion within a public institution"

No, it doesn't...it's an alternate explanation. The article addresses ID...not a Christian God, or Judiastic God, or Buddhist God...etc.

Thanks for the Odin/Giant Cow reference...it really adds to the discussion.

Scott


43 posted on 01/25/2007 11:26:19 AM PST by scottdeus12 (Jesus is real, whether you believe in Him or not.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

How much did the Dover school district have to pay as a result of their lawsuit? Wasn't it over a million dollars? I would think other districts and states would give pause before deciding to take that sort of risk. I assume the Mississippi school district might find other more beneficial uses for a million dollars.


44 posted on 01/25/2007 11:27:28 AM PST by asburygrad
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To: DaveLoneRanger
However, if the theory of evolution is required to be taught as part of the school district's science curriculum, in order to provide students with a comprehensive education in science, the school board also must include the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the science curriculum."

You know that I am a proponent of Intelligent Design. But like the Discovery Institute, I am against this kind of bill. The words "must include" above turn me off.

I prefer FREEDOM for teachers to teach what they see fit ( which includes FREEDOM to include or not include materials that critique Darwinism ).

I am also for FREEDOM of a local school district ( i.e., parents and teachers ) to decide for themselves what and what not to teach in their science curriculum.

Congress or Senate should not interfere ( and neither should the ACLU ).
45 posted on 01/25/2007 11:28:34 AM PST by SirLinksalot
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To: 49th
But it's only giving ONE alternate theory. By doing that it is implicitly stating that the only two possiblities are either evolution or Christian creation. That is most certainly the establishment of religion. If you want creationism in schools, you better be prepared to accept Vedic hymns and Odin and his giant cow too.

Please do not take offense, but your statement shows a complete lack of understanding of the ID theory. The Norse mythos has no specific creation theory, neither do the Buddhists, Olympians, or Baal-ists. And do not get me started on the Scientologists or LDS...
46 posted on 01/25/2007 11:29:44 AM PST by rjsimmon
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To: trumandogz

This is eye-wash. The pols have this idea they have to do something about education, so they do the evolution thing. They get a couple votes and don't have to solve a real problem.


47 posted on 01/25/2007 11:33:01 AM PST by durasell (!)
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To: scottdeus12
"...if the theory of evolution is required to be taught as part of the school district's science curriculum, in order to provide students with a comprehensive education in science, the school board also must include the teaching of creationism or intelligent design in the science curriculum.""

I think that's fair. When I was in Gubmit school, the only thing ever taught pertaining to the origin of life was evolution...there was never an alternate presented.

No it's not fair - public schools should not be teaching religion. The problem you get is if they DO teach religion - just whose version are they going to teach? Baptists? 7th Day Adventist? Christian Scientist? Catholic? Assembly of God? Mormon?

Just who's going to decide which version gets taught?

Why not have the astronomy classes teach the "alternative theory" that the world rides on the back of a giant tortoise?

Science belongs in science class and religion belongs in church or in church run schools.

48 posted on 01/25/2007 11:36:18 AM PST by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: rjsimmon

ID theory, in addition to not yet being a functioning theory, is inextricably linked to fundamentalist christianity. That it still allows for billions of years of time and the slow progression (or appearance, or whatever, the theory hasn't come up with anything on that point yet) of species not withstanding.


49 posted on 01/25/2007 11:36:25 AM PST by 49th (This space for rent.)
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To: trumandogz

Duh - guess I need to clear the cobwebs from my brain before I start posting on FR


50 posted on 01/25/2007 11:39:14 AM PST by asburygrad
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