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Report: Volkswagen Changing Strategy for Hybrids (DIESEL!)
www.greencarcongress.com ^ | 01/31/2007 | Staff

Posted on 01/31/2007 9:21:09 AM PST by Red Badger

Germany’s Automobilewoche reports that with the change in Volkswagen’s top management is coming a change in strategy for hybrids.

Martin Winterkorn, who formerly headed the company’s Audi AG unit, became CEO after Bernd Pischetsrieder resigned at the end of 2006. Pischetsrieder had brought in Wolfgang Bernhard from DaimlerChrysler to run the Volkswagen unit. Berhard has now left (as of today), and Winterkorn will personally oversee the VW brand for the time being.

Now, rather than target a mild hybrid Jetta for sale into the California market in 2008 as described by Pischetsrieder, Volkswagen will focus first on a full hybrid Touareg SUV. VW has announced a 50-state compliant (Tier 2 Bin 5) diesel Jetta will go on sale in the US in 2008.

The additional cost of the compact hybrid or of a hybrid drivetrain applied in a Touran van didn’t make sense for management, given price-sensitivity of the consumers, and a negligible gain in fuel efficiency compared to a diesel powertrain. VW was exploring the use of the Continental mild hybrid system in those applications.

Now, Volkswagen will concentrate on developing a hybrid application of the Touareg (along with Porsche with its Cayenne) for the end of 2008, with Bosch providing the full hybrid system, according to the report.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Germany; News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: biodiesel; california; car; cars; diesel; energy; engine; engineering; environment; environmentalissues; fuel; germany; hybrid; hybrids; porsche; transport; volkswagen; vw
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Rest In Peace, old friend, your work is finished.......

If you want on or off the DIESEL "KnOcK" LIST just FReepmail me........

This is a fairly HIGH VOLUME ping list on some days......

1 posted on 01/31/2007 9:21:15 AM PST by Red Badger
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To: sully777; Fierce Allegiance; vigl; Cagey; Abathar; A. Patriot; B Knotts; getsoutalive; ...

KnOcK!......


2 posted on 01/31/2007 9:21:44 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: Red Badger
It's top secret, but I am developing a sailcar that will run mostly on the power of wind. Below is my concept vehicle which has shown very promising results going down hill...


3 posted on 01/31/2007 9:29:48 AM PST by Always Right
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To: Always Right

Some guy in Holland did that on a Sunday in October of '73. nevertheless, sail powered or not, he was cited for breaking the Sunday driving ban. He had put a sail and a mast in his Beetle convertible..


4 posted on 01/31/2007 9:32:53 AM PST by sheik yerbouty ( Make America and the world a jihad free zone!)
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To: Always Right

lolz


5 posted on 01/31/2007 9:35:50 AM PST by martin_fierro (< |:)~)
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To: Red Badger

I gave the old diesel Jetta a pretty good look and was impressed.

However, after doing research it looked like the high mileage would be washed out with expensive service costs.

Do you think the new one will be cheaper to maintain?


6 posted on 01/31/2007 9:39:27 AM PST by volunbeer (Dear heaven.... we really need President Reagan again!)
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To: volunbeer

All things being equal, it would probably be on par with a gasoline engine, now, better filtering and cleaner fuels, better seals and rings.......


7 posted on 01/31/2007 9:41:31 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: Always Right

Tacking into the wind down the interstate could be interesting/


8 posted on 01/31/2007 9:43:14 AM PST by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: Red Badger

I hope so. The MPG on those things is amazing with much more power vs a hybrid.

I may give the new one a look in a few years if they can control maintenance costs.


9 posted on 01/31/2007 9:43:28 AM PST by volunbeer (Dear heaven.... we really need President Reagan again!)
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To: Red Badger

It seems that a small diesel, operating in the optimum powerband at all times, would be ideal for a hybrid application. Let the batteries handle the low-end grunt, and let the small motor operate at a constant RPM with constant load at all times


10 posted on 01/31/2007 9:56:14 AM PST by gridlock (Isn't it peculiar that no matter what the problem, the government's solution is always "more taxes".)
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To: gridlock

You could even hop in the car and drive away on the batteries, and the diesel could start later, when it was good and ready.


11 posted on 01/31/2007 9:56:51 AM PST by gridlock (Isn't it peculiar that no matter what the problem, the government's solution is always "more taxes".)
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To: Red Badger

The 2007 VW Jetta

12 posted on 01/31/2007 10:02:42 AM PST by TChris (The Democrat Party: A sewer into which is emptied treason, inhumanity and barbarism - O. Morton)
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To: TChris

Looks very Daimler-Chrysler-ish..........


13 posted on 01/31/2007 10:03:19 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: volunbeer

I actually HAD a diesel Jetta and ran it for 300K miles with only replacing the glow-plugs once. All other repairs were normal for any car.

Got something around 55mpg.


14 posted on 01/31/2007 10:11:23 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry
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To: gridlock

The problem is, on-road diesels typically don't spend enough time off their design point to justify the expense and weight of a hybrid. They get better gas mileage (for most of us) without the weight.


15 posted on 01/31/2007 10:18:35 AM PST by Dead Dog
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To: Red Badger
I'm betting on this
16 posted on 01/31/2007 10:23:38 AM PST by pabianice
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To: pabianice

That's one of my bookmarks!.....


17 posted on 01/31/2007 10:25:28 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: Red Badger

Am I the only one that remembers when we went through the Diesel Car "Revolution" before??

When you put diesels in the hands of average consumers, in COLD PLACES, they become an absolute nightmare....

First -3 degree morning when it doesn't start on the first pull, these things will be heading back to the dealerships in DROVES...


18 posted on 01/31/2007 10:29:22 AM PST by tcrlaf (VOTE DEM! You'll Look GREAT In A Burqa!)
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To: tcrlaf
First -3 degree morning when it doesn't start on the first pull, these things will be heading back to the dealerships in DROVES...

Today's diesels are not your father's diesels..............50% of the cars sold in Europe are diesels, and I remember it got quite cold when I was there........

19 posted on 01/31/2007 10:33:10 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: tcrlaf

Euros also tend to keep cars FOR LIFE, unlike Americans..

We HAVE seen all of this before.

Tell me that the Grandma that can't program the VCR is going to remember to plug it in, and put additive in it, when she visits the kids in Chicago from Florida??


20 posted on 01/31/2007 10:44:37 AM PST by tcrlaf (VOTE DEM! You'll Look GREAT In A Burqa!)
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To: Red Badger
Maybe this is somewhat off topic, but it seems to me whatever fuel alternatives there are, people in each and every corner of the world will still have their very own idea of what the perfect car looks like.

A perfect car in;

GERMANY

- is a Diesel powered (!) Porsche speedster that can take you from Hamburg to Munich in 1 hour using the Autobahn with especially strong headlights designed for signaling to any annoying intruder on YOUR path that he ought to stay the h*ll out of that section of the road.

The US

- is an enormous SUV fueled by any disposable source of energy, parked outside your house in order to cause envy among your neighbors (while you occasionally sneak out of the garage in your Corolla upon heading for work/going shopping)

ITALY/FRANCE/SPAIN/PORTUGAL

- is a car that is well designed, accelerates impressively while using first and second gear, has a voluminous ashtray, is easy to park anywhere and doesn't require much service until the day you sell it (who cares what money you'll be getting for it).

JAPAN

- is a modestly designed, efficient, car that will not upset your neighbors, workmates or your boss while at the same time being a marvel of electronic/digital devices that allows you to freak out in the restricted, humble privacy of your own.

THE SCANDINAVIAN COUNTRIES

- is a Volvo
21 posted on 01/31/2007 10:48:37 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: WesternCulture

I love the Autobahn...............We need it here.........


22 posted on 01/31/2007 10:51:46 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: volunbeer
However, after doing research it looked like the high mileage would be washed out with expensive service costs. Do you think the new one will be cheaper to maintain?

Well they have to add a stunning $$$ amount of sensors, controls, exhaust aftertreatment (catalyst, diesel particulate filters and urea injection), etc to meet the new EPA diesel emission regs for 07 and 010. The trucking companies did a huge "pre-buy" of 2006 units to avoid this as long as possible. So the answer to your question is "not a chance"

and all this generally hurts fuel mileage also :-(

23 posted on 01/31/2007 11:00:22 AM PST by nascarnation
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To: Red Badger

"I love the Autobahn...............We need it here........."

The Autobahn is one of the BEST aspects of European culture.

It is one of the very few remaining ULTIMATE experiences of limitless FREEDOM allowed by governments to "ordinary" citizens around this globe!


24 posted on 01/31/2007 11:04:20 AM PST by WesternCulture
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To: Red Badger
Cold weather was the major downside on the S-10/Isusu 2.2 diesel I once owned. In winter, at say 15-20F that sucker was hard to start. Fuel jelled in the filter, and if it could be pursuaded to start, the power was way down.

I'm guessing the modern oil burners have fuel tank and filter heaters.

25 posted on 01/31/2007 11:13:19 AM PST by Don Carlos (Posting tasteless comments since 02/03/2002)
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To: tcrlaf

I've been driving VW diesels since 1982. Started with a gutless '81 Rabbit. Had a block heater that I'd plug in when it got super chilly. You only forget to add the fuel additive ONCE.

I like the Jetta TDI better, however, the turbo ceases to work and requires a little clean up. This is true for the '98 and the '02 models, as I can personally testify. Plus VW seems to have a problem with the indicator lights on the panel coming on when there is no problem. When I factor in the higher cost of diesel, plus the costs of deglunking the turbo and replacement of timing belts every 60,000 miles, I question if I am saving any money at all.


26 posted on 01/31/2007 11:26:53 AM PST by giznort
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To: Red Badger
Q1. Is it possible to build a turbine engine that runs on gasoline and is small enough for a car?

Q2. Would it make sense to have a turbine engine hybrid?

27 posted on 01/31/2007 11:32:16 AM PST by wideminded
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To: volunbeer
I have a 2000 Jetta TDI turbo diesel, it has 89K miles and the only major repairs I have had to do is glow-plug replacement (3 years ago - approx $300) and air-flow meter replacement (2 months ago - approx $350) beyond that, it has been routine oil change stuff every 4K miles (at approx $35.00 per change)

This is well in the normal maintenance cost for ANY vehicle, and I still get 45-50MPG @ 80MPH
28 posted on 01/31/2007 11:55:56 AM PST by roaddog727 (BullS##t does not get bridges built)
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To: Red Badger
I'm just waiting for the new VW EOS convertible to come out in a TDI version, and hopefully that will be bluetec.

WooHoo!
29 posted on 01/31/2007 11:57:42 AM PST by roaddog727 (BullS##t does not get bridges built)
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To: GeorgefromGeorgia
>>>Tacking into the wind down the interstate could be interesting/<<<

Not a heck of a lot of difference from the way some drivers attack I-5 around Seattle....without sails.

30 posted on 01/31/2007 11:58:33 AM PST by HardStarboard (The Democrats are more afraid of American Victory than Defeat!)
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To: gridlock

What's wrong with Diesel-Electric like the trains run on?


31 posted on 01/31/2007 12:01:57 PM PST by ichabod1 ("Liberals read Karl Marx. Conservatives UNDERSTAND Karl Marx." Ronald Reagan)
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To: Red Badger
The ill-fated Phaeton did Bernd Pietschrieder in as VW Chairman. It turned out people were not willing to pay a king's ransom for a luxury marque from what is after all the people's car. VW has gone back to its bread and butter cheap and dependable cars. The engines just last and last and last. Whatever else one can say about VW, they make great engines.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

32 posted on 01/31/2007 12:23:17 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: volunbeer
LOL! Yeah, people regard VW dealerships as "stealerships" due to the outrageous service costs. But they do such a good job that you seldom have to bring in your VW for service more than twice a year. Its a trade-off I can live with.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." - Manuel II Palelologus

33 posted on 01/31/2007 12:26:44 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: ichabod1

Hey, you are not supposed to mention that there is a time tested, proven technology that has been in use for fifty years.

Shame on you.

To the General Public: It's just a choo-choo. Pay no attention to the train. Please go on about your business. There is nothing to see.


34 posted on 01/31/2007 12:33:53 PM PST by UCANSEE2 (It's turtles all the way down.)
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To: Red Badger

Colder than -3F requires fuel heaters to prevent waxing and to maintain a decent pour point temperature.


35 posted on 01/31/2007 12:49:23 PM PST by Old Professer (The critic writes with rapier pen, dips it twice, and writes again.)
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To: Always Right

These suckers will do 60+

36 posted on 01/31/2007 12:54:15 PM PST by Boiler Plate (Mom always said why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can be impossible.)
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To: wideminded

turbines are EXPENSIVE
they need to run at high temps to be efficient and that requires exotic metallurgy


37 posted on 01/31/2007 12:57:56 PM PST by nascarnation
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To: goldstategop
I got to sit and start a W-12 Phaeton, Really Nice car, but no way would I spend $90,000 for one. If I was in that market I would get a used S-500 or 600 Mercedes or a 750 BMW.
38 posted on 01/31/2007 12:58:34 PM PST by cmsgop ( How do we know he's NOT Mel Torme?)
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To: Red Badger
with Bosch providing the full hybrid system

Bosch make people yearn for the relative high reliability of Lucas. This hybrid is going to make a lot of VW mechanics very rich.
39 posted on 01/31/2007 3:38:07 PM PST by Boiler Plate (Mom always said why be difficult, when with just a little more effort you can be impossible.)
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To: wideminded
Q1. Is it possible to build a turbine engine that runs on gasoline and is small enough for a car?

Q2. Would it make sense to have a turbine engine hybrid?


Volvo did exactly that, it's called the "Evironmental Concept Car" and it's from the 1990s:



For more information just google "volvo environmental concept car". As mentioned before, the main problems with that kind of drivetrain are complexity, weight and cost, especially considering the alternatives. A clean Diesel costs half and weighs a third.

Turbines, just like rotary engines (aka. Wankel engines) are destined to be a niche product, at least for the foreseeable future.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankel_engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_RX-7
40 posted on 01/31/2007 4:08:37 PM PST by wolf78
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To: nascarnation; giznort; roaddog727; goldstategop

Thanks for the comments and as you can see my hesitation on this thread.

Some people swore by them but too many swore at what the "stealerships" charged for maintenance.

I was looking for a high mileage/low maintenance vehicle for a third car for running around town or trips. I already have an SUV and a mini-van for the kids. I have an insulated garage so even if it got much colder than normal I would probably not have any issues with running errands in it.

The Honda Civic seemed to fit my considerations for a third vehicle quite nicely but I really liked the Jetta. I may look at them again in a few years.


41 posted on 01/31/2007 5:10:42 PM PST by volunbeer (Dear heaven.... we really need President Reagan again!)
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To: Red Badger

Put me on--Thanks


42 posted on 01/31/2007 5:49:45 PM PST by thedilg (1)
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To: gridlock

It would be, without a doubt.

Running a generator at a constant speed when needed is a perfect application for a diesel engine. Diesels prefer to run under load at a constant RPM.


43 posted on 02/01/2007 12:20:48 AM PST by NVDave
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To: tcrlaf

You're exactly onto the reasons why American consumers are so suspicious of diesels: Detroit made a royal hash out of diesel engines in the late 70's. There was GM's stupid effort where they took a V-8 350 gas engine, changed the pistons and fuel system and called it a diesel. Horrible piece of crap. There was the VW Rabbit diesel, popularly known as "The Turtle" where they had a diesel with no boost.

Here's what is different about today's diesels vs. those diesels:

1. All diesels in passenger cars or pickups today have turbos.
2. All diesels in passenger cars today have computer controlled fuel systems, so it is impossible to over-fuel the engine. "Over fueling" is what results in the classic thick, black smoke that people hated about diesels.
3. Today's diesels have advanced very significantly WRT cold starting. Glow plugs are common in some product lines. Glow plugs aren't my favorite cold start assist, but they work. The better cold start assists have one glow plug and ignite a little bit of fuel in the air intake, thereby heating the intake air, which then gets sucked into the engine, which helps the engine start. Today's diesels are tighter, and with the computer control of the fuel system, the computer will prevent wet-stacking of engines when they're cold.
4. As diesel has become more popular for passenger cars, you see better control of the fuel supply for winter conditions. It used to be that in winter, the refineries and fuel retailers just kept on selling #2. Today, in many cold climate areas, in winter the fuel retailers aren't selling straight #2 any more -- they're selling #2 with some #1 mixed in to prevent gelling.
5. Lastly, and most people who aren't around diesels a lot don't understand how important this is -- injector technology has changed in ways the consumer cannot even begin to understand. Better injectors means better atomizing of the fuel. The old injectors used to produce, by comparison, some rather fat fuel spray patterns. This is OK if the engine is hot and the fuel gets nice and thin. It will mostly burn.

Emissions requirements has meant that diesel engine engineers have labored mightily to create injection systems that evenly and very, very finely atomize the fuel, resulting in both better combustion and better starting at low temps.

Even where industrial diesels are concerned, starting a 1970's diesel vs. a 1990's diesel is night and day. We have a bunch of tractors that date from the late 70's on this farm. They're a bear to start in 0F weather. We also have a recent engine in a New Holland balewagon. It has a cold-start assist of the glow plug+fuel dispenser in the air intake. I guess it works. I don't really know. I've never had to use it. The computer monitoring of the fuel supply, coupled with the improved injectors, means I can start the NH engine down to 0F without glow plugs or the cold start assist, whereas on the 1978 Deere tractors, I have to use the ether injection system and the block heater to get that machine running in the morning.

The most succinct way I can convince you that the modern diesels are vastly superior to the 1970's diesels is this:

GM has nothing to do with modern diesels. So the stupid people are off in a corner, going bankrupt, while the rest of the automotive industry, who happens to not suffer from cranial/rectal inversion, rapidly develops new and better diesel technology.


44 posted on 02/01/2007 12:34:50 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Old Professer

Not really. Clouding can be prevented easily with the addition of #1 diesel to the fuel in increasing ratios as the temps go down.

I'm able to run any diesel engine on this outfit in the high desert with 30% #1 and 70% #2, down to about -15F. I don't have to order my fuel as a special blend. Our fuel distributor just does it for us, starting at Thanksgiving time and ending in March.


45 posted on 02/01/2007 12:38:04 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Boiler Plate
yearn for the relative high reliability of Lucas

You mean the Prince of Darkness?

46 posted on 02/01/2007 12:48:39 AM PST by arthurus (Better to fight them over THERE than over HERE)
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To: thedilg

Done!.....


47 posted on 02/01/2007 5:06:29 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: wideminded

As far as I know, turbines are multi-fuel engines and will run on most anything flammable........including biodiesel.......


48 posted on 02/01/2007 6:02:01 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: Old Professer
Colder than -3F requires fuel heaters to prevent waxing ...

I never wax at below 60°F, anyway. Too damn cold, and it's hard to get out of the can............

49 posted on 02/01/2007 6:05:34 AM PST by Red Badger (Rachel Carson is responsible for more deaths than Adolf Hitler...............)
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To: volunbeer

The "newer" Jetta TDIs have a slightly bigger engine, and a reduced MPG. My 2002 gets about 50, the 2007s get 45.

As to the gunking up of the turbo, requiring about $300 (or more?) to clean it up, I asked the local VW dealership owner that this was a problem on the '98 models, why hadn't they done anything to resolve this issue? Obviously other diesel engines (my Hubby's Ford truck comes to mind) do not have these problems, and he said that's because the diesel fuel sold in the US is different than that in Europe. I think this is BS; car manufacturers make cars for certain markets and I would think a US car would have different requirements than would a car sold in Germany. Some states have different requirements as well, like California.

All I know is that this has been a known problem since the late 90s at least, and they've done diddly squat to resolve it. Ater all, this problem for the consumer is an income-generator for the dealership.


50 posted on 02/01/2007 8:15:24 AM PST by giznort
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