Posted on 02/02/2007 9:41:29 AM PST by cowtowney
Today, the school choice movement could take a giant step forward.
At 11 am MST, the Utah House will begin debating what could become the nation’s first universal school choice program – the type of program that Milton Friedman wrote about in 1955 and pursued tirelessly for over 50 years. You should be able to listen to a live audio broadcast of the hearing at http://www.le.state.ut.us
The program would allow every child, even children currently enrolled in private schools, to be eligible for a school voucher worth between $500 and $3,000 depending on the family’s annual income.
(Excerpt) Read more at friedmanfoundation.org ...
http://www.le.state.ut.us
Listen here
I don't want vouchers. I want the NEA defunded and my taxes cut. If the government thinks they are "giving" me money in the form of a voucher they will also believe they have the right to tell me what my children should be taught. I don't want the government having any more footholds into my home than they already have.
End the public education system and let people educate their children as they see fit. PERIOD!
Good for Utah. Truthfully, I hope another state follows suit--soon. Unfortunately Utah has this reputation that well, the LDS controls everything and that it's really not representative of America. Maybe a state like Nebraska or Kansas will do the same thing.
Odd logic. So you object to the government making more choices available? This would actually reduce the government foothold into the home over the current system. Vouchers aren't the best solution, but it is superior to the existing near-monopoly that public indoctronation camps we now have.
EndWelfareToday - I understand your point, but it isn't realistic, at this time.
I also share your concern about the government dictating what schools will teach and private schools becoming dependent on the vouchers (vigilance in both cases will be key). Nevertheless, this is a big step forward for parents (especially those of mid to low income) and a big step in breaking the stranglehold of government education and unions on our kids...assuming this passes the state senate and governor.
Yes. When those choices include all the strings that will come along with the "funding" of those choices. We can see how the government slithers into anything they give money too. Just look at charter schools. Originally they were privately funded and as such were able to keep the state boards of education and the NEA from dictating to them what should and should not be included in their curriculums. Since the original inception of those charter schools many states have begun to offer "public funds" to the charter schools to "help" with the purchase of computers, books, class rooms,... It all looked good and all on the surface but the minute the charter schools take the money the government comes in with their rules and regulations and in essence turn the charter schools that participate in the public funds giveaway nothing more than another "public school." I personally would rather have the property taxes used to fund any public education system cut from our taxes and returned to us. You could then use that money in whatever manner you choose and the government would have NO SAY in those decisions.
This would actually reduce the government foothold into the home over the current system. Vouchers aren't the best solution, but it is superior to the existing near-monopoly that public indoctrination camps we now have.
If you honestly believe this you are either a goon working for the NEA, or one of her minions, or you are very naive and seriously deceived.
Nothing personal but I don't want to pay anything to educate your children. My wife and I home school our children and we've succeeded in getting two of the four into college with a third one starting in the fall. Not one red cent has been given to us by our government throughout their education yet every year we have to pay so that your children and the children of those like you can either send your child to a publicly funded camp of Marxist indoctrination or so that you can receive, if all goes as you seem to believe is well, a voucher that will allow you to send your child/ren to an hybrid camp of Marxist indoctrination. If you love your children teach them yourself and insist that the government stop taking our money to fund anti-American cesspools of communist inculcation.
JMHO
Sorry. I don't see it that way.
I don't. The last thing my state need is another government entitlement program.
Parents can choose. You can send your children to public schools. You can send your children to private schools. You can home school. Two out of three don't depend on government education and unions.
LOL, so I advocate a policy that the NEA viciously opposes more than any issue there is, and I call the public schools 'indoctronation camps' and you think I am a goon working for the NEA. Your logic has gone from odd to moronic.
However, whatever your choice, the government still gets the money.
Personally, I would like to see the government get out of the education business entirely. Until then, I would suggest an alternative to vouchers. Allow parents to deduct tuition and other educational expenses from their taxes.
Well you'll never see that happen.
Allow parents to deduct tuition and other educational expenses from their taxes.
I would support such a plan since unlike vouchers it does not call for government to subsidize private school tuition.
"I would support such a plan since unlike vouchers it does not call for government to subsidize private school tuition."
If all schools are private, what difference does it make if vouchers are used?
Besides, vouches should be used for private, religious, whatever school. It's the parent's decision, not the state.
Exactly. Plus it can maintain an iron grip on education - let's face it, the vast majority of parents won't consider homeschooling but will be much more open to a private school (which is incredibly difficult, if not impossible, for middle/lower income folks to afford w/o either a tax break, voucher, or other alternative).
I do like the tax break idea, however. The legislature did try to initiate a tax credit a couple of years ago but the bill didn't make it through. I think there was some 'constitutional' reason for it (proponents weren't as well organized either), but I don't remember the specifics.
I would've preferred the tax credit/deductions but if this makes it through, it will be a step forward and something to build upon (IMO).
To avoid both, vigilance will be needed on the part of the parents and schools to prevent such actions.
Additionally, it could be argued that vigilance may be inherent in the new system as the private schools will gain more influence in the populace (a greater proportion of children/parents using them) and those using the schools will have a strong incentive to fight for their school's (and the systems) values/independence as interference would be perceived as adverse to their child's education. Further, the schools themselves could rapidly inform parents and initiate actions as they already have a standing organization (the admin, pta, board, parent newsletters etc).
Just in. YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
Today, the Utah House passed, by a vote of 38 to 37, what could become the nation’s first ever universal school voucher program. The legislation, House Bill 148, would allow every family in the state to have a choice in their child’s education and would become the first program to achieve Nobel laureate economist Milton Friedman’s vision for universal school choice.
It is the state subsidizing something for you that you are unwilling to pay for yourself.
I am so glad I went to Catholic school when it was cheap. The nuns took no crap from the kids or the parents. It was basically a no frills education, but we came out learning how to read and write very well. Even the slower kids did better than their public school counterparts. In grade school we really didn't get much art and music, and I think in 8th grade we started having gym ( who needed gym when we had school yards etc. to play in after school.)Kids weren't the computer addicted (as I am now) couch potatoes that they are today. I think by the time I left 8th grade in 1972, my parents were paying $250 per year for tuition. In NYC I am not sure what the cost per capita is for each child in grade school or high school...in public school. Education definitely needs more than a makeover.
We already pay it - taxes. Hence, it would be nice to get the tax break instead of vouchers.
I think the main point is to not get hung up on vouchers - yeah they have their issues, but are a step forward. Like I said earlier, people aren't ready to take the leap for tax breaks and certainly not for the end of public ed. The choice we face is to take progress and build upon it or hold out (for eternity) to end public ed in one swoop.
"It is the state subsidizing something for you that you are unwilling to pay for yourself."
Where do you think the State got that money?
The legislation loads the vouchers so the most go to those in the lower income levels. Unless you or they or whoever gets the vouchers get back no more than the percentage of their state taxes that go to education then they're getting a subsidy. I thought conservatives were supposed to be against that?
Tax breaks I can agree with but vouchers are nothing but a government give-away.
Don't make the perfect into the enemy of the good. Progress is progress.
"I thought conservatives were supposed to be against that?"
So you think conservatives are against vouchers? You need to go to "conservative school" to learn what a conservative is.
What "conservative school" teaches that big government give-aways are core conservative ideas? This is a subsidy. A program taking money from one sector and giving it to another. A system to pay for something for people unwilling or unable to pay for it themselves. That goes against everything I was taught conservatives stood for. When did it change?
Can you please explain for me how keeping the NEA in the lives of our children is in any way "progress?"
Just because you move your money from one pocket to another doesn't mean you're not still wearing the pants. Same holds true for the government. Just because they move the money from the traditional "public school" to a "Private school now made public because they accept public money via vouchers" in no way removes the government from our lives.
Of course you are free to explain the "progress" to me if you can.
Point is... if you love your children you will teach them yourselves.
Get a clue, dude. Vouchers are the best way to fix the education system today. Stop whining. If you have a concrete, practical alternative, let's hear it.
Allow parents to deduct tuition and other educational expenses from their taxes.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is much better than vouchers.
I would also suggest that business and people other than parents be permitted to sponsor a child or children, or be allowed a FULL tax deduction for donations to private scholarship funds granting private vouchers to private schools.
Sorry. I don't share your optimism. I've seen what "public money" does to private schools once the private schools begin to accept "public money." There is absolutely no difference between the two once this occurs.
Doctors don't fight cancer by dinking around with the disease. They take aggressive and decisive action to cure the patient despite the fact that the treatment is "cruel" and quite painful. But... It must be done if the patient is to stand any chance of survival.
The disease of public schools and socialism can only be dealt with in the same manner in my opinion. Until Americans begin to stand up for what's right our society is going to keep collapsing and then, it's not going to matter how nice we are. It's going to be a battle for our very survival. We MUST take back our families and get the government out of our homes.
JMHO
How about by using the voucher money to get your kid out of an NEA run institution and into a private school?
Point is... if you love your children you will teach them yourselves.
We do, but not everyone is in the position we are. If this is enough seed money to get others out of the public ed mill, thats all to the good. Especially if (and I don't know if this is the case with this proposal) the vouchers can be used in a Home School situation. A small step, but a step nevertheless.
Just in. YESSSSSSSSSS!!!!!
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I am glad to hear this.
How is taking "public money" and turning "private schools" "Public" helping anyone?
Naaaah, the only way to help is to give us back our money in the form of tax cuts and expand homeschool associations to help those you claim won't do a better job teaching their children than the public school system does.
At least this is my opinion.
Government entitlements is never a solution. Tax breaks for private school tuition is the better alternative.
Yeah, well, good luck with all that. When you get enough people together to skip all the intervening steps, let me know. Meanwhile, the rest of us will cheer for the incremental steps that direction, instead of deriding the effort as "not good enough".
This question was a little too harsh for you eh? "How is taking "public money" and turning "private schools" "Public" helping anyone?"
No problem. I understand how zealots become blinded to reality when what they are doing is what they think is good despite the fact it's not.
I suppose the ol "frog in boiling water" analogy would be a waste of time on you as well eh?
"Don't make the perfect the enemy of the good. Progress is progress."
Amen. If only more people thought this way.
No, apparently, you don't.
I suppose the ol "frog in boiling water" analogy would be a waste of time on you as well eh?
I prescribe turning down the heat, you prescribe grabbing the frog out with bare hands and flinging him into an ice bath. Which method is more likely to appeal to the public and turn into saving the frog?
Because it commits the logical fallacy of assuming a condition within the question. It is a "when did you stop beating your wife" type question.
Yet, you term other points of view as zealotry? Since only the extremes exist in your world, do you alternate between flooring the gas and locking up the brake? This isn't a dictatorship, where you can "EndWelfareToday" by fiat. Cold turkey doesn't work when the Vox Populi is addicted to bread and circuses, and has the franchise. It has to be weaned away in incremental steps.
Vouchers give the people a taste of self determination and a measure of responsibility for the decision of where their education dollars go, which is better than letting the NEA machine determine it 100%. If some private school doesn't want to deal with the strings that may attach, they don't need to take the vouchers. They will be no worse off than they are right now. If it creates an alternative private school/public funded industry, that's another step along the "charter school" path away from the standard public schools. If it lets some parents pocket the vouchers to pay their homeschooling expenses, that's good too.
Get stuffed, you insulting troll.
Have a bless life. I'll not reply to you again!
The rest of you, if you love your children you will petition your representatives to get our government out of the education business and educate your children yourself. Just look at some of the moonbats that the public school system's turned out on this thread alone if you want to know why.
You should have refrained from posting to me again this time. By doing so, you managed to reveal that you have not a clue what an ad hominem attack is, what a fallacy of a begged question is, assume everyone in California is a tax burden or statist, or whatever else you imagine them to be (which is a REAL ad hominem), directly insult me a third time, and deign to lecture everyone about how they should or should not raise their kids. I am sure our host, JimRob, will be happy to know his State of residence tells anyone on FR all they need to know about him.
If this is the sort of education you passed on to your offspring, Good Lord help them in life. I hope they managed to figure out how logic works despite your example.
Now, take a hint and go away.
Anyone have the party affiliations?
Aagard
Allen, S.
Bigelow
Bird
Bowman
Brown
Dunnigan
Ferry
Fisher, Julie
Holdaway
Hunsaker
Mascaro
Mathis
McIff
Menlove
Ray
Snow, G.
Don't be too surprised. Most Utahns are conservative, but they fail to pay attention. The result is that teacher's unions and various mush groups have infiltrated the Republican party (it started in earnest in the 80s).
Most people here still assume Republican = conservative, but that's not the way it works. However, things are changing and more conservatives are being elected but it is a long, uphill battle.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.