The Case Against Smoking Bans

The Cato Institute ^ | Thomas A. Lambert

[Eric Blair 2084]

In recent years, legal scholars have produced a voluminous literature on the rule of law in indirectly controlling social norms and individual preferences. Smoking bans provide on of the favorite "success stories" of those who laud the use of legal rules to change norms and preferences. According to these scholars, smoking bans affect behavior, even if under-enforced, because they change the social norm regarding smoking in public. With the advent of smoking bans, non-smokers who previously felt embarassed about publicly expressing their distaste for ETS are speaking up. By providing a de facto community statement that public smoking is unacceptable, the bans embolden non-smokers to confront smokers who are inconveniencing them. Facing heightened public hostility towards their habit, smokers are likely to revise their preference regarding smoking, thus by making smoking more socially costly, the theory goes, bans reduce the number of smokers.

[Eric Blair 2084]

The study is 7 pages long. If you read the whole thing, great...if not, pay attention to the section entitled "THE PREFERENCE SHAPING ARGUMENT".

Clearly the idea that Second Hand Smoke kills 2,120,098 people per day doesn't even pass the laugh test. The real number is actually 0. The bogus EPA study on ETS has been eviscerated in federal court.

That section explains to everyone, smoker and non-smoker alike, what this social engineering experiment is all about: COERCING SMOKERS TO QUIT OR NON-SMOKERS NOT TO START.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Big Brother, Nanny State, Grant Junky, Bogus Study, Junk Science, Social Engineering, Sheeple Control, Health Nazi Ping!!!

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____________________________________________________________________

Constitution of the Left Wing Nanny State of Liberals.

Picture courtesy of unixfox. All rights reserved. Copyright MMVII. Any use of the pictures descriptions or accounts of this ping without the express written consent of unixfox, Eric Blair, or Major League Baseball is strictly prohibited. Some restrictions apply. Ping not available in all states.

Preamble:

We the People Sheeple of the United States Nanny State, in Order to form a more perfect Union Socialist Utopia, establish Justice Socially engineer a country of non smoking, physically fit, tea totallers, insure domestic Tranquility Smoking bans in bars, limits on unhealthy food and social drinking, provide for the common defense Universal Healthcare, promote the general Welfare health of the population whether they like it or not, in order to save above mentioned Universal Healthcare entitlement program from bankruptcy, and secure the Blessings of Liberty Dependency to ourselves progressive liberals and our Posterity Hitler Youth who we brainwash through public school education, do ordain decree and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Nanny State of Liberals.

[I see my hands]

"The Case Against Smoking Bans"

The Case for Smokin' Buns

[Tx Angel]

Nice tag!

[Eric Blair 2084]

But what does that have to do with the subject at hand?

[libertarian27]

I've stumbled on a phrase this week.
Neo-Communism.
Anti-smoking advocates are the neo-communists.

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

THE PREFERENCE SHAPING ARGUMENT

Why not encourage smoking the way liberals encourage other behavior choices such as homosexuality? Smoking only takes a few years off of one's life. Men who decide to have sex with other men take TENS of years off of their lives yet liberals encourage children to try it. Liberalism - what a hateful ideology.

[Namyak]

There's way too much logic and sound Conservative philosophy in that study for the gnatzies to be comfortable with.

[traditional1]

The Anti-smoke Nazi's have convinced a large group on this forum about the "hazards of second-hand smoke", and those that are non-smokers here are quick to point at the smokers with disdain, ignoring the rights being violated (prepare for rants on the smell, allergies, etc. as rationales for being on the anti-smoking bandwagon here).

[xuberalles]

The ideology of liberals is so twisted it makes me laugh. So much for choice.



"Liberal Logic: Abortion is a choice...smoking is a crime!"
Bumper Sticker/T-Shirt
http://www.cafepress.com/titillatingtees.105159455

[boop]

Whew! That picture makes smoke come out of my ears! Is that a poster? I'd love to put it up in my office!

[johnthebaptistmoore]

And Michael Bloomberg may still possibly run for President in '08. Michael Bloomberg: The poster child for nanny politics!

[listenhillary]

Neo-communism google search brought up a interesting link to an article by David Horowitz.

Neo-Communism
By David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | April 22, 2003

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=7396
(snip)
Chomsky is an intellectual leader of the anti-war left who has written a book with these reflections that has sold over 200,000 copies. In Chomsky’s view, the World Trade Center deaths were regrettable but the unprecedented humiliation of the imperialist power – America -- was an historic victory for social justice and human progress

[Eric Blair 2084]

Why not encourage smoking the way liberals encourage other behavior choices such as homosexuality? Smoking only takes a few years off of one's life. Men who decide to have sex with other men take TENS of years off of their lives yet liberals encourage children to try it. Liberalism - what a hateful ideology.

Great point. And it's been brought up time and time again. Sticking an HIV infected penis into another guys rectum isn't going to advance "public health". But you never see liberals calling for a ban on gay bathhouses.

Having said that, as a Libertublican (25% Libertarian, 75% Republican), I don't pass judgment on two guys who want to live together. If they're happy than Salud!, Mazaltov!, Congratulations!

You can be together but we won't call it "marriage". We'll just call you "Butt Buddies". You can have all the same rights, but instead of calling you "man and wife" we'll call you "Colon Comrades".

This way everyone is happy. The religious right can say that we have defended marriage.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Thanks for that great link BTW.

[SheLion]

Thanks for the ping!

[Eric Blair 2084]

Thank you Lioness. We're just trying to warn the non-smoking limited government conservatives who will listen...TAKE A GANDER AT WHAT YOUR FUTURE HOLDS!! That's the difference between humans and fish. Fish can't tell each other "Hey buddy, look out for the fake bait with the hook on it...it's bad news!" Humans can.

When they came for the drinkers during Prohibition, I did not speak out, as I was not a drinker.

When they came for the employees of the oldest profession in the world, I did not speak out, as I had no interest in purchasing sex.

When they came for the purveyors of what was deemed to be "obscene" or "offensive", I did not speak out, as I was not a fan of entertainers like Lenny Bruce or Howard Stern.

When they came to ban the female mammary gland from TV, I did not speak out, because Brian Boitano told me not to.

When they came for the marijuana smokers, I did not speak out, as I was not a marijuana smoker.

When they came for the steroid users, I did not speak out, as I was not a steroid user.

When they came for the pornographers, I did not speak out, as I was not a pornographer.

When they came for the people who don't wear seatbelts, I did not speak out, as I always wore my seatbelt.

When they came for the gun owners, I did not speak out, as I was not a gun owner.

When they came for the gamblers, I did not speak out, as I was not a gambler.

When they came for the cigarette smokers, I did not speak out, as I was not a smoker.

When they came for the overweight and the obese, I did not speak out, as I was not overweight or obese.

When they came for the drinkers (again), I did not speak out, as I was not a drinker.

Then they came for me...and there was nobody left to speak out.

[jerry639]

The Anti-smoke Nazi's have convinced a large group on this forum about the "hazards of second-hand smoke", and those that are non-smokers here are quick to point at the smokers with disdain, ignoring the rights being violated (prepare for rants on the smell, allergies, etc. as rationales for being on the anti-smoking bandwagon here).

So, let them rant. I doubt if anyone really cares what they think. Other than other ranting anti-smokers.

[traditional1]

"I doubt if anyone really cares what they think"

Good point!

[Eric Blair 2084]

http://www.forces.org/writers/kjono/pdf/tfw222.pdf

Read the anti-tobacco playbook above. The leftists in anti-tobacco don't even believe the SHS nonsense themselves. It's almost comical to listen to supposed "conservatives" defend other people's junk science and social engineering when the people spewing it know they are lying

I almost feel sorry for them. They are just the unwitting victims of a billion dollar PR campaign. There are some people on FR (and local public serpents in state legislatures) who either still believe they are dying because their roommate in college smoked or they hung out at Fraternity parties where people were smoking. More likely they are just too pigheaded to admit that it doesn't even pass the LAUGH TEST, they are not sick and will live to be 98 despite having spent their entire youth in smoky bars.

Can we please move past that nonsense and discuss why the former SG/AZ day spa employee would think people were stupid enough to believe the press releases? And how they will they use social engineering against obesity and drinking?

[mysterio]

Anti-smoking advocates are the neo-communists.

Nah, communists had their good points. Psychotic anti-tobacco zealots are mentally ill and must be forcefully committed before they enable government even more.

[mysterio]

Why do you hate freedom and property ownership?

[mysterio]

Sorry, misread your post in my own pro-tobacco zealotry. *blushes*

Please disregard my inflammatory attack.

[megatherium]

Actually, according to the CDC, smoking takes fourteen years off the life of the average smoker: MMWR — Annual Smoking–Attributable Mortality, Years of Potential Life Lost, and Productivity Losses — United States, 1997–2001

The risk from unprotected, promiscuous gay sex is very high. But the risk to men who have sex in the context of a committed caring relationship (yes, this does occur) is very low. Cigarettes when used as intended are deadly.

[mysterio]

So are cars and hamburgers.

[FNG]

I'm always confused by pro-smoking freepers who attack smoking bans like smoking is something in the bill of rights. Nicotine is a dangerous drug that kills people. I'll admit the war on some drugs is a bigger failure than prohibition, but I'm not sure legalizng all drugs is wise. If you smoke, but agree with controls on some substances, you are a hypocrite. Is nicotine safer than heroin and cocaine because it kills you slower? If you want all drugs legalized, at least I can respect your consistent opinion. I quit smoking 20 years ago. Secondhand smoke makes me and most other non-smokers feel quite ill. God designed our bodies with these defense mechanisms like pain to tell us something is wrong. Inhaling secondhand smoke is unhealthy. Would any of you smokers complain about someone expelling nasty rotten farts next to you constantly? I would really like a smoker try to explain how they could justify making drugs other than nicotine controlled or illegal. I would also like to hear one seriously say they would not mind smelling someone else's sewer smelling farts all day. It cannot be done without imposing egregiously liberal double standards on people. Being anti-smoking is being pro-life.

[jerry639]

Sorry, misread your post in my own pro-tobacco zealotry. *blushes* Please disregard my inflammatory attack.

This ole dog has been around too long to let remarks bother him or take things personal.

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

Thanks for the confirmation. I'll go with your numbers: smoking 14 years. Homosexuality: 20 years off of one's life (this was using CDC data and obituaries in the gay papers).

Since homosexuality is simply a lifestyle choice there are few committed relationships (see the mortality rate studies for proof).

Do you endorse the government schools encouraging kids to try homosexuality? If so why not encourage the kids to smoke?

[elkfersupper]

Being anti-smoking is being pro-life.

Too bad the pro-life bone is attached to the anti-freedom tendon in this knee-jerk reaction.

[NCLaw441]

Non-smoker here, but as far as I know, nicotine, while addictive, is not itself harmful. That's why nicotine patches are allowed to be sold. The harmful part of cigarettes is the tar and other ingredients. The nicotine just keeps you wanting to smoke, from what I understand.

[jerry639]

Anti-smokers and anti-drinkers have been around for longer than most of us have been alive. The only thing that has changed is that they have big money behind them to advance their agenda. They don't understand that they have been duped by commies and control freaks.

Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, the War on Drugs hasn't stopped people from using drugs, Anti-smokers will never stop people who want to smoke.

I don't know why we even concern ourselves with their ranting and raving. They are a lost cause in pursuit of another lost cause.

It will be their personal habits that get regulated and legislated next.

As for my choices, I will simply not obey their smoking and eating regulations. What are they going to do? Throw a 67 year old man in jail for lighting up a cig or his pipe? Ask me politely not to smoke in your presence and I will submit to your request. But, don't make any demands of me. Their rights end when they start stepping on mine. As far as I am concerned, I have every right to smoke.

[Eric Blair 2084]

You know what I find ironic Jerry?

At 67 you have outlived the former head of WHO. He dropped dead at age 61.

[jerry639]

I quit smoking 20 years ago.

It was your own choice to quit. Since I haven't chosen to do so, you find fault with me. Quitting doesn't give you the right to demand that everyone else do so. I am no more a hypocrite than you are.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Is nicotine safer than heroin and cocaine because it kills you slower?

If you are smart enough to be a Republican, you are smart enough to give me at least 3 reasons why nicotine can't be compared to heroin or cocaine. Give it a try for the next 10 minutes and get back to me.

[EVO X]

That's why nicotine patches are allowed to be sold.

I chewed gum for over a year, but quit cold turkey after I read that prolonged use is bad. I guess your suppose to read the instructions..

[freemike]

I often think of that old movie about the last days of Hitler. I love the ending. Hitler hated smoking and none of his staff were allowed to smoke around him. At the very end while in the bunker, when some officer comes running out to announce to all the staff that Hitler was dead,, moments pass. Then, one by one, they all light up and start to blowing smoke.
I remember way back when congress hauled the tobacco execs in front of them to testify. When I saw how they were all a bunch of wimps, I knew it would be all down hill from there. If I could have jumped inside their bodies, I would have come into the chambers with an unlit cig. in my mouth and thrown the whole thing back on those sorry treason loving, property grabbing hypocrites. I would have said "yes Mr Senator, tobacco probably will kill you! The warning is right here on the side of the box! Everybody knows it! They've been teaching this in schools for years! Too much beer could kill you too! Wouldn't you agree Mr Senator? You love a fine smoke yourself, isn't this true Mr Senator? And since it is this government that regulates tobacco, we're not growing anything that the government doesn't allow. In fact, you make more money off a pack of cigs than we do! so why are you wasting my time, Mr Senator!

[jerry639]

At 67 you have outlived the former head of WHO. He dropped dead at age 61.

Probably dropped dead from worrying too much about what other people do.

What I find most ironic is: I have a personal doctor, an ENT and a cardiologist and all know that I smoke. Not once have any of them told me that any medical problem that I have is caused by smoking. I have to come here to learn from a bunch of anti-smokers that smoking is killing me. I may just have to fire all my doctors tomorrow.

[jerry639]

My, my! Does one have to take an intelligence test now to become a Republican? Didn't know we were so well blessed in numbers that we could do that.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Very well said. I wish you were there instead of the Big Tobacco execs who chose to leave their customers bent over the bathroom sink in exchange for protection from the gangsters in the state AG offices.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Sorry, I thought you were a Nazi at the time. You got hit with some friendly fire from Normandy Beach.

[honolulugal]

I like your style.

[megatherium]

Are you referring to the mortality studies of Paul Cameron? Those are bogus. The clue that they're bogus is that the average age of death of the men in the obituaries was in the low 40s even when the cause of death wasn't AIDS. It turns out that the readership of these papers was young men. But we can stick with that Ontario study I mentioned that gave the range of 8 to 20 years (the uncertainty being the result of a lack of knowledge as to what percentage of men actually have sex with men). The average of 8 and 20? It's 14. Not particularly encouraging to smokers, to know their habit is as unhealthy as gay sex. Not particularly encouraging to gay men, to know their lifestyle is as unhealthy as smoking. < grin >

Choice? Gay men usually say they can't chose who they're sexually attracted to (just as most straight men have absolutely no attraction to men). Of course, they can choose celibacy, but to not have sex? That's pretty tough. Now compare to smoking. That's not exactly a choice either for many smokers. I know smokers who tell me they tried to quit and a year later, the cravings never went away. Smoking is, yes, addictive.

[Eric Blair 2084]

My, my! Does one have to take an intelligence test now to become a Republican? Didn't know we were so well blessed in numbers that we could do that

We should be blessed in numbers, but you are right, it's still 50/50. When polled (and we know how reliable that is) American citizens overwelmingly claim that they want LESS government.

In reality, it seems that some are only too happy to vote for the guy/gal who promises the most largesse from the public treasury. In exchange, they are willing to let the Gubmint then tell them:

If somebody wants to be a "ward of the state", go right ahead. But if you want "free" healthcare than you have to live by their rules. It's their money.

I can take care of myself, thank you.

[Minn]

Secondhand smoke makes me and most other non-smokers feel quite ill.

I'm a nonsmoker and, in the right environment like a music bar, I like smokiness. There is supposed to be a haze between you and the band. If you smell afterwords, wash your clothes and take a shower. Since Minneapolis banned smoking in bars I miss the atmosphere the smoke provided. The chance of such smoke harming my health in any way is about one tenth the risk that loud music poses. Maybe we should ban that too, huh? I mean isn't it obvious that the human ear was not meant to endure what a night of rock and roll will do to it. Oh that's right, if you don't like loud music, and are concerned about it's health effect, you don't go where it's offered. Seems simple enough.

Being anti-smoking is being pro-life.

Being anti-smoking the way you describe it is being a naive to the rest of the agenda of your fellow prohibitionists.

[69ConvertibleFirebird]

Gay men usually say they can't chose who they're sexually attracted to

Yes, "usually" is the key word. The ex-gay men don't say that at all. Although their behavior choices don't to count when activists want to say that acting out in homosexual manners is genetic. Some of the bestiality people say the same thing as well - "it's genetic what we want to have sex with so legalize and endorse it."

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Pagey]

"Read at work tomorrow" BUMP!

[metesky]

I would also like to hear one seriously say they would not mind smelling someone else's sewer smelling farts all day.

See, the thing with smoke gnatzies such as you is that sooner or later (usually sooner) they revert to third grade arguments about farts or peeing in the pool or some other juvenile chit.

Grow up and then get back to us.

[Madame Dufarge]

Excellent article and worth taking the time to read.

Neatly demolishes all the smoking Nazis' arguments, not that this will have the slightest effect on the snivel factor.

[Madame Dufarge]

How are the personal choices other adults make any of your business?