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Ancient boy's skeleton sparks evolution debate (In Kenya)
CNN ^ | February 6, 2007 | Staff

Posted on 02/06/2007 5:54:32 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger

Deep in the dusty, unlit corridors of Kenya's national museum, locked away in a plain-looking cabinet, is one of mankind's oldest relics: Turkana Boy, as he is known, the most complete skeleton of a prehistoric human ever found.

But his first public display later this year is at the heart of a growing storm -- one pitting scientists against Kenya's powerful and popular evangelical Christian movement. The debate over evolution vs. creationism -- once largely confined to the United States -- has arrived in a country known as the cradle of mankind.

"I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it," says Bishop Boniface Adoyo, head of Kenya's 35 evangelical denominations, which he claims have 10 million followers. "These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."

He's calling on his flock to boycott the exhibition and has demanded the museum relegate the fossil collection to a back room -- along with some kind of notice saying evolution is not a fact but merely one of a number of theories.

Against him is one of the planet's best-known fossil hunters, Richard Leakey, whose team unearthed the bones at Nariokotome in West Turkana, in the desolate, far northern reaches of Kenya in 1984.

"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press. "The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved."

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bloodbath; creation; crevolist; dmanisi; evolution; flamefestival; homoerectus; ignoranceisstrength; kenya; origin; origins; turkanaboy
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As if the evolutionary debate NEEDED a spark...!

Bishop Adoyo believes the world was created 12,000 years ago, with man appearing 6,000 years later. He says each biblical day was equivalent to 1,000 Earth years.

So! Even Bishop Adoyo compromises a little. But as I've stated before about this case in Kenya, the creationists there are going about it all wrong. They embody the evolutionary characterization of creationists looking like this:

Wrong way to go about it. Instead, meet their interpretation head-on. This evidence isn't "theirs." They're just looking at the evidence through a certain filter of beliefs and assumptions. This specific specimen, Turkana Boy, was likely just as human as you or I.

For more reading pertaining to human fossils, I recommend the following page: Homo erectus 'to' modern man: evolution or human variability?

1 posted on 02/06/2007 5:54:33 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; Havoc; ...


You have been pinged because of your interest regarding news, debate and editorials pertaining to the Creation vs. Evolution debate - from the young-earth creationist perspective.
To to get on or off this list (currently the premier list for creation/evolution news!), freep-mail me:
Add me / Remove me



There were several sources covering the Kenya story again (of course, you've been keeping track of it with me for weeks before they got wind of it...) but when it hit CNN, I figured it might merit another thread here.
2 posted on 02/06/2007 5:55:41 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

""I did not evolve from Turkana Boy or anything like it," says Bishop Boniface Adoyo... " And he surely did not evolve, because he hasn't, and it shows.


3 posted on 02/06/2007 5:57:11 PM PST by GSlob
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To: GSlob

I don't know much about your ancestors but
Mine didn't swing from a tree.

:-)


4 posted on 02/06/2007 6:00:53 PM PST by agrarianlady
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To: agrarianlady

What tree? Mine lived in the best cave in the neighborhood.


5 posted on 02/06/2007 6:02:24 PM PST by GSlob
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To: agrarianlady

"Mine didn't swing from a tree. "
Then why can't you make your own Vitamin C like your dog can?


6 posted on 02/06/2007 6:04:51 PM PST by gcruse (http://garycruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

The article doesn't say. How long ago did the kiddo live?


7 posted on 02/06/2007 6:06:12 PM PST by Enosh
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To: DaveLoneRanger; Aetius; Alamo-Girl; AndrewC; Asphalt; Aussie Dasher; AnalogReigns; Baraonda; ...
"This specific specimen, Turkana Boy, was likely just as human as you or I."

How could it be otherwise? There are so many living specimens of humans that differ vastly from the norms in various respects; this is much ado about nothing.

It's only a skeleton of an individual; let those that wish to view it do so.

8 posted on 02/06/2007 6:14:54 PM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: GSlob

Gee, that was cheap...


9 posted on 02/06/2007 6:14:59 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: gcruse
No, but I can sing a catchy tune! (Actually, I haven't been able to get this one out of my head for 30 years! Agh!)

The Monkey Song

10 posted on 02/06/2007 6:15:36 PM PST by agrarianlady
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To: DaveLoneRanger

This is more from the camp Leakey/Dubois gang, right?


11 posted on 02/06/2007 6:15:38 PM PST by IllumiNaughtyByNature (If voting really changed things, it would be illegal.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press.

Well, if Leakey said it, it absolutely has to be true. End of story. /s


12 posted on 02/06/2007 6:19:23 PM PST by DennisR (Look around - God is giving you countless observable clues of His existence!)
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To: agrarianlady

...so you want everyone else to get that song in their heads for the next 30? :)


13 posted on 02/06/2007 6:20:22 PM PST by DennisR (Look around - God is giving you countless observable clues of His existence!)
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To: gcruse
Then why can't you make your own Vitamin C like your dog can?

Dino makes this stuff?

14 posted on 02/06/2007 6:22:01 PM PST by Hoplite (Ten thousand strong, and growing!)
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To: agrarianlady

Mine ate insects for about 100,000,000 years.


15 posted on 02/06/2007 6:22:49 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: gcruse
Good point. Even rats make vitamin C.

Thankfully the seals living in the arctic make so much vitamin C their hides are full of it, and people who hunt and eat seals get their vitamin C from those animals.

Supposedly a single reversal of a single base in one gene keeps us from producing our own vitamin C.

16 posted on 02/06/2007 6:24:44 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: DaveLoneRanger
'Gee, that was cheap...'
Sometimes the truth is cheap, and sometimes it is more espensive. On this occasion it happened to be on the cheaper side. The really cheap shot would be a bit too un-PC for AdmMods to tolerate, but could be communicated in private correspondence.
17 posted on 02/06/2007 6:26:08 PM PST by GSlob
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To: DaveLoneRanger
--This specific specimen, Turkana Boy, was likely just as human as you or I. For more reading pertaining to human fossils, I recommend the following page:

which shows skeletal differences not known in modern man.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_boy
18 posted on 02/06/2007 6:26:58 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: muawiyah

They can have my vitamin C when they pry my cold dead fingers off of my oranges.


19 posted on 02/06/2007 6:29:42 PM PST by JusPasenThru (Just another angry military veteran.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
"The bishop is descended from the apes"

I imagine that Richard Leakey know the correct way to say things, but I recall being slapped on FR for phrasing it that way. The pro-evolution people (IIRC) take offense at this sloppy wording. Humans and apes share a common ancester, or some such phrasing, is correct. But to make an assertion the way Richard Leakey did is to brand oneself as an ignorant slug who doesn't know enough about Evolution to discuss it intelligently. Which I find amusing.

20 posted on 02/06/2007 6:29:56 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Enoch Powell was right.)
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To: JusPasenThru
The overall KNM-WT 15000 skeleton still had features (such as a low sloping forehead, strong brow ridges, and the absence of a chin) not seen in present day modern humans.

This would bear striking resemblance to Helen Thomas.

21 posted on 02/06/2007 6:34:17 PM PST by JusPasenThru (Just another angry military veteran.)
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To: UpAllNight

What about skeletal differences makes a fossil not "modern man"? I know you do not intend this, but that kind of thinking expanded to its logical conclusion is racism.


22 posted on 02/06/2007 7:01:24 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
...but when it hit CNN, I figured it might merit another thread here.

Dave, you really should leave evolutionary science alone.

You have shown that you have neither the inclination to study science, nor the education to understand it.

But you mentioned you are studying communications. Perhaps you could follow in the footsteps of this televangelist.

23 posted on 02/06/2007 7:08:33 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: editor-surveyor

Thanks for the ping
24 posted on 02/06/2007 7:13:08 PM PST by csense
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To: DaveLoneRanger
This specific specimen, Turkana Boy, was likely just as human as you or I.

The Turkana Boy remains have been dated to 1.6 millions years ago which makes him likely either homo erectus or homo ergaster. Both these hominids were significantly different from you and I (smaller brains etc). Anatomically modern humans, homo sapiens sapiens, only emerged 150,000 years ago.

25 posted on 02/06/2007 7:20:32 PM PST by Grim
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To: ClearCase_guy

--But to make an assertion the way Richard Leakey did is to brand oneself as an ignorant slug who doesn't know enough about Evolution to discuss it intelligently. Which I find amusing.--


Spout off and show your ignorance - AGAIN. Leaky said 'the apes'. Usually, the creationists are slapped down for saying we evolved from monkeys.


26 posted on 02/06/2007 7:23:31 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: gcruse

Actually, some bats cannot make vitamin C, some birds cannot
also, and some primates make it....
Some mammals make it in the liver, some in the kidney, some
in both organs.....
Wouldn't localization of the synthesis also be a
taxonomic consideration?
Are there other gaps in the biosynthesis framework of
mammals?

It's not just guinea pigs, chimps, and man that
cannot make Vitamin C. By the way, why do guinea
pigs not make it, but animals supposedly higher
up on the evolutionary sequence do?

So can the lack of an effective gene to make Vitamin C be used
as a taxonomic guide....well....maybe not....
Would the discontinuity of the ability to make
Vitamin C be a death blow to microevolution or would
the taxonomic diagram be changed to accomodate it
and allow evolution to still be "true?"
If the taxonomic diagram is changed, what other changes
will occur with new data...will that disprove evolution,
or will the diagram be altered again?
How much convolution will be allowed before, like Ptolemy
theories, and phlogiston ideas, the theory is highly modified?

Why does whale insulin have one amino acid difference from
humans, pigs have one amino acid difference, and cows have
a two amino acid difference?
What taxonomic significance is indicated?

Finally, how does a loss of genetic functionality
, and a potential for disease (scurvy, poor collagen
formation, immune response, blood cell synthesis) allow
the chimps and humans to survive in the wild?
Please don't use the excuse that because plants with vitamin
C are around, chimps/g.p.'s and humans don't need to synthesize
it, cause they can get it in their diet.
That won't explain why the gene came about...cause if
Vitamin C was around before other animals evolved, why did they
need to synthesize it? they could have survived just
like guinea pigs, humans, and chimps...i.e by eating it?

Just some facts and suppositions. I hope the information is
enlightening, and the questions thought provoking.


27 posted on 02/06/2007 7:27:42 PM PST by Getready (Truth and wisdom are more elusive, and valuable, than gold and diamonds)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

--What about skeletal differences makes a fossil not "modern man"? I know you do not intend this, but that kind of thinking expanded to its logical conclusion is racism.--

You have an evil, sour mind, college kid. Grow up.


28 posted on 02/06/2007 7:28:27 PM PST by UpAllNight
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To: muawiyah

I think it's a deletion of a base pair, not a "reversal",,,,not adding
of information, but taking away of information...leading
to an organism that cannot survive well without outside
sources of Vitamin C....(poor blood cell development,
lousy immune response, collagen formation decreased,
scurvy, etc.)


29 posted on 02/06/2007 7:30:03 PM PST by Getready (Truth and wisdom are more elusive, and valuable, than gold and diamonds)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

evolution is just plain dumb.


30 posted on 02/06/2007 7:30:27 PM PST by freemike
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To: DaveLoneRanger

>>"These sorts of silly views are killing our faith."<<

Maybe his. Not mine.


31 posted on 02/06/2007 7:33:35 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

>>"Whether the bishop likes it or not, Turkana Boy is a distant relation of his," Leakey, who founded the museum's prehistory department, told The Associated Press. "The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved."<<

Man I hate it when people state opinion as fact like this.


32 posted on 02/06/2007 7:34:28 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: Grim
The Turkana Boy remains have been dated to 1.6 millions years ago which makes him likely either homo erectus or homo ergaster.

(Sorry, Dave; we don't see humans walking around today who look like this.)



Fossil: KNM-WT 15000

Site: Nariokotome, West Turkana, Kenya (1)

Discovered By: K. Kimeu, 1984 (1)

Estimated Age of Fossil: 1.6 mya * determined by Stratigraphic, faunal & radiometric data (1, 4)

Species Name: Homo ergaster (1, 7, 8), Homo erectus (3, 4, 7, 10), Homo erectus ergaster (25)

Gender: Male (based on pelvis, browridge) (1, 8, 9)

Cranial Capacity: 880 (909 as adult) cc (1)

Information: Most complete early hominid skeleton (80 bones and skull) (1, 8)

Interpretation: Hairless and dark pigmented body (based on environment, limb proportions) (7, 8, 9). Juvenile (9-12 based on 2nd molar eruption and unfused growth plates) (1, 3, 4, 7, 8). Juvenile (8 years old based on recent studies on tooth development) (27). Incapable of speech (based on narrowing of spinal canal in thoracic region) (1)

Nickname: Turkana Boy (1), Nariokotome Boy

See original source for notes:
Source: http://www.mos.org/evolution/fossils/fossilview.php?fid=38

33 posted on 02/06/2007 7:35:41 PM PST by Coyoteman (Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
"This specific specimen, Turkana Boy, was likely just as human as you or I."

I'm one of those evil evolutionists and I would agree with that statement.
34 posted on 02/06/2007 7:37:59 PM PST by ndt
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To: gcruse
"Then why can't you make your own Vitamin C like your dog can?"

Because we evolved from Guinea Pigs that can't make Vitamin C either?

35 posted on 02/06/2007 7:38:18 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: Getready

Dould be a deletion or a reversal. In either case the appropriate protein doesn't get made.


36 posted on 02/06/2007 7:39:29 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Grim; DaveLoneRanger
Physical anthropology bump.

Good post, DLR. Thanks.

37 posted on 02/06/2007 7:40:20 PM PST by onedoug
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To: GSlob
There was no "truth" in the petty attack, and frankly, I'm surprised you'd even try to justify it.

Admins can read PM's from what I hear, and I'd just as soon avoid any more extreme cheap shots, thank you.

38 posted on 02/06/2007 7:40:53 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: Grim

Nice story


39 posted on 02/06/2007 7:43:20 PM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: Grim

Nice story


40 posted on 02/06/2007 7:43:23 PM PST by editor-surveyor
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To: UpAllNight

Answer me when you have time for substantive responses, not silly old personal attacks.


41 posted on 02/06/2007 7:46:55 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

It was not even an attack - he needs to evolve, and by his own admission hasn't.


42 posted on 02/06/2007 7:54:24 PM PST by GSlob
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To: DaveLoneRanger

"The bishop is descended from the apes and these fossils tell how he evolved." Tell that to your local Muslim imam, Leakey, and we'll see how brave you are. It's always been fun for secular humanists to bait Bible-believing Christians with their faith in evolution, but in France, the mullahs are letting the French schools know that they won't stand for having evolution taught. Let's see how brave the scientists are when faced with the Van Gogh treatment.


43 posted on 02/06/2007 8:03:51 PM PST by kittymyrib
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To: agrarianlady
Mine didn't swing from a tree.

Mine did - and I take pride in that, rather than thinking of myself as 'fallen' from some higher state through sin.

44 posted on 02/06/2007 8:15:54 PM PST by BlazingArizona (co)
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To: Coyoteman

If you're going to address me, you might try putting my name in the "to" window.


45 posted on 02/06/2007 8:16:28 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Agreed Dave- the evidences are on our side as well as the impossibilities of evolution- the Bishop should be highlighting these points. Every fossil found to date has been either fully human or fully ape- but this isn't even the fact that should be argued the hardest- Evolution simply breaks down at the very Beginning- end of story- the impossibilities of even the supposed first single cells evolving into more complex systems can't be overcome biologically- it's impossible.


46 posted on 02/06/2007 8:20:18 PM PST by CottShop
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To: muawiyah

I could make vitamin c, but it's cheaper to buy it in a store. I also eat half a grapefruit each morning which provides me with plenty even if I didn't take a multivitamin. I guess there are some things that are unnecessary for human bodies to do, although the animals over which we have dominion have need for those functions.


47 posted on 02/06/2007 8:30:08 PM PST by KarinG1 (Opinions expressed in this post are my own and do not necessarily represent those of sane people.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

But I spose if they still want to quibble about humans and apes, then Turkana boy was fully human. "1000-1050cc, compared to later Chinese examples which were as high as 1200cc.26

According to Molnar, the modern human range runs from about 700cc to 2200cc,27 and this puts every adult erectus specimen comfortably into the range of modern humans, and this range also covers every adult example of archaic sapiens, Neanderthal, and Cro-Magnon Man."

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v8/i1/erectus.asp


48 posted on 02/06/2007 8:30:52 PM PST by CottShop
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To: Coyoteman
Sorry, Dave; we don't see humans walking around today who look like this
How very chronocentric of you. Again, I submit that, while you may not personally be racist, declaring that anyone who doesn't look exactly like you is not fully human is racism. It's what led to slavery, it's what led to the abuse of the Australian aborigines, and most every other mistreatment of human beings on the planet. It's the little lie that we whisper in our own ears to ease our guilty conscience:

It's not human.

A lot of the abortion debate centers on whether or not the fetus is human. Abortion doctors ease the consciences of scared, pregnant girls that it's not a human life they are destroying.

That's why they hate for you to see things like this:


It doesn't have to look like you to be human.
49 posted on 02/06/2007 8:37:15 PM PST by DaveLoneRanger (Wellllllll! Guess it's not about the economy anymore, is it? Stupid?)
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To: editor-surveyor

Thanks for the ping!


50 posted on 02/06/2007 8:47:51 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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